July 9, 2010 12:57 am at 12:57 am #591930simcha613Participant
I’m very interested in hearing what The Yeshiva World has to say about the positives and negatives about making aliyah (obviously, each individual case is unique, but I wanted to have a general discussion). In my soul searching whether to make aliyah, I came up with the following 5 reasons to make aliyah, and I wanted to know what the tzibur had to say about it:
1) It seems clear from the Torah that HaShem wants the Jews to make aliyah, despite spiritual advantages that exist elsewhere. In the desert the Jews received the mon daily. They didn’t have to work for a parnassah, and they were able to learn all day. They were also constantly surrounded by the Clouds of Glory, and arguably had a closer relationship with HaShem than any other generation in history. And yet, in Parshas Shelach, the nation was expected to sacrifice all that and go to Eretz Yiaro’el. They would lose the mon and they would need to start working. Yet they were expected to go, and were punished for not wanting it (even though according to some commentators that their intentions were genuine, and the reason they didn’t want to go was because they didn’t want to sacrifice their Torah).
2) I feel very chutzpatik thanking HaShem for Eretz Yisro’el every time I bentch (in nodeh lecha) and yet not taking advantage of it. For the first time in many many years, Eretz Yisro’el is accessible to us. How could we thank G-d for it and not take it? How could we tell HaShem “thanks, but no thanks”?
3) Obviously there are negatives in the secular Israeli society and positives in the American society. But every time I go to Eretz Yisro’el I am so amazed at the genuineness of the kids there (both dati le’umi and chareidi). Many are not materialistic, they aren’t affected as much by the shmutz in tv, movies, music, even sports which is inherently secular (even people who don’t have tv’s in their house in America, there is still a negative effect and impact from the culture as a whole). Eretz Yisro’el is just a more wholesome place to raise Jewish Children.
4) Israeli children generally have a much better start at learning Torah both because of the way the school system is set up (they actually learn Nach!), and Hebrew is a first language. They can start learning earlier and quicker because they don’t have to spend as much time learning and getting used to a second language.
5) Chazal speak about how Eretz Yisro’el is better than Mitzrayim. Mitzrayim has the Nile, it constantly waters the land, they don’t need to rely on HaShem. But Eretz Yisro’el is supported by rainfall, it’s much harder there, it’s much easier for Bnei Yisro’el to have a relationship with HaShem and to daven for what they need. Many people are scared of making aliyah because it’s much harder to make a parnassha. It seems from Chazal that that’s the way it’s supposed to be, and it’s a positive thing about Eretz Yisro’el, not a negative.July 9, 2010 11:14 am at 11:14 am #689025Be HappyParticipant
Every time I go to Eretz Yisroel this is what I feel:
I feel positively elevated.
People make do with a lot less.
They are spiritually higher than us.
One can “feel” Shabbos, YomTov, and other days like Tisha Bav. One can feel Chanuka. Purim etc. One feels it much much more than Chutz Leretz!July 9, 2010 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #689026artchillParticipant
Before you decide to take the leap of faith alone, factor in the reasons why Olim return back to their former countries:
1. If you think that people in frum neighborhoods in America are judgemental, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet. If you are blacklisted for ANY reason in Eretz Yisroel, you and your children will have no one to associate with.
2. If you have school aged children, the chinuch systems are dramatically different in America vs. Eretz Yisroel. Besides for the different level, your kids must have no speech, processing,etc. issues or the Hebrew translating will be almost insurmountable.
3. The job market is still attrocious. Poseiach es Yodecha Umasbia is the ultimate goal to strive for, but are you really ready to rely on miracles? When the husband is unable to support the family, shalom bayis often suffers.
Obviously, Eretz Yisroel is THE place to be but go in with realism in front of your eyes.July 9, 2010 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #689027sbergerMember
Amazingly, no one has actually mentioned that according to the majority of opinions, it is actually a positive Torah commandment to live there.July 9, 2010 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #689028sbergerMember
Also, I don’t know if the job market is as bad as you say. How do you know this? Also, the economy is America is bad and it’s not getting better.July 10, 2010 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #689029speaktruthMember
The difference in E”Y is that min wage is much lower and it is very hard to get a well paying job. In america, any teenage can get a job in a grocery store/restaurant/lifeguard/counselor/etc… for at least $10 an hour. Here, first jobs are much harder to find and even adults are paid around 7/8 an hour in many jobs and it is a huge adjustment to live off such a salary and very hard if only one parent is working.July 10, 2010 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #689030Derech HaMelechMember
My mashgiach from Yeshivah in E”Y says that the level of learning in America is incomparable with the level of learning here, but he said three things that Israeli bochrim don’t have is
1)they don’t know how to cry on Yom Kippur
2)they don’t know how to dance on Purim
3)I forgot (it’s been a while)
I can’t say I agree with artchill on the first point that he made although to be honest- I never met someone who was “blacklisted”.
But there are MANY children who went OTD because they weren’t able to adjust to the social and cultural changes.
I can’t really claim to know much about the job market here either, but I think that if you are coming with a profession already you won’t have much trouble provided you can speak the language fluently enough. There are at least two English (language) born doctors in the neighborhood that I live in.
There are many benefits to living in E”Y there are sefarim filled with the maylos of E”Y. What you need to figure out is if you are in a position at this point of your life to to take on the burden of the added difficulties that come with living here. I personally made aliyah right after I got married (having been here for about 5 years in yeshivah) but for my wife who had never been here longer than 6 months, she found the lack of family nearby extremely difficult for a long time.July 10, 2010 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #689031fabieMember
Well, I’ve been living in Eretz Yisroel for about 30 years now. Every case is very unique. Before making any major changes in life, it’s good to look into all aspects in as much depth as possible.
Here are some important questions:
1. Parnussah – What is your present parnussah, and what will it be.
2. Chinuch – Same questions
3. Learning – How much and what quality of learning
As I put purnassah in number 1, it is truly a serious factor, in it will affect shalom bayis, chinuch, and almost all other facets of life. So if you’ve passed that stage you could probably start looking into more depth. The cost of living is not low anymore, and it is constantly moving up.July 10, 2010 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #689032dveykus613Participant
While I agree with speaktruth about minimum wage, there’s a HUGE factor here not being taken into consideration which is that health insurance here is FREE, and tuiton is negligible (80 shekel a month for girls to 80 dollars a month or so for boys) – amount to the most expensive tuitions being less than $1000 per kid per year! So even if you make a third of what you make in the states, you still end up with around the same or sometimes more for groceries, utilities etc.
It may be true that Hash-m want bnei e”y to daven to Him more for parnosa etc but as simcha613 said that’s a positive not a negative…
At the end of the day Hash-m decides a person’s parnosa every rosh hashana – if you make more He may just give you more expenses, the above is just to show how “al pi teva” that is true…
as far as what artchill and derech hamelech said, Rabbi Orlowek says that generally it is not a good idea to make aliyah with kids while they’re between the ages for 5-15 yrs old cuz they’re more at risk to go OTD but each person should ask their own Rav….there are many different hashkofa schools in Israel, but once you choose one, one thing many mechanchim say is either way that the home and school shouldn’t contradict one another – if you do, you cause your kids to choose if they should reject the school or reject you, neither of which is an optimal situation!
So make sure you’re willing to go with the school’s shitos (once you choose which one is for you) whether you totally agree or not…
We made aliyah to a very American community which is a very comfortable transition to Israel (no I don’t work for any recruiting agency!) and we are very happy here – if anyone has questions regarding aliyah feel free to ask…July 10, 2010 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #689033emoticon613Member
everything’s in proportion. i’m being paid very little, and i’m paying very little. this is especially true in ‘bnei Torah settlements’ such as kiryat sefer and beitar illit, where the whole society is based on kollel families and their specific needs. they are paid very little by their kollels adn supplementary incomes from their wives, but in turn, the tuition is very little, rent is almost a third of what it is in yerushalayim, and food/clothing prices are a mechaya!
but about making aliya which was really the discussion here, major things to take into account are the emotional capablities of the children and their ability to adjust.July 11, 2010 6:44 am at 6:44 am #689034g73Member
artchill – the job market here is actually pretty good! I even know a number of people who made aliyah b/c they couldn’t find work in the “wonderful” US economy. I wouldn’t recommend coming here to be rich, but if you have employable skills – you can find good job opportunities!July 11, 2010 9:54 am at 9:54 am #689035miamimiamiMember
We live in the Galil in an Israeli city. The whole family loves it here.July 11, 2010 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #689039fabieMember
Yes, living like an avreich is much cheaper, if you already own a home and are not marrying children off. Semanaries, i.e., post high school are more expensive, but still cheaper then the states. On the other hand marrying children off here is extremely expensive. Buying homes is extremely expensive. Dental care (young childrens care has just become free), especially orthodontics is not covered under the standard health plan. But, you have to compare apples to apples. If you live in the states with low income, you usually qualify for medicaid, food stamps, and other programs, and you will probably get a tuition cut as well. Although education costs here are very cheap, don’t ever expect a tuition break.
The tax system here is very difficult as well. One major point is that men don’t receive tax deductions for chidren, while women do. So if you have a large family, if you’re wife’s making the money that’s great otherwise you will be left with very little income. Beginning tax rates start very low as well. If you have a private business you can usually put most of the income in your wife’s name.
Another point. In education, if you work for a goverment school, like Chinuch Atzmai, or a city school, married women with children get a standard 20% pay raise, as well as maternal benfits, which men don’t get.July 11, 2010 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #689040proud_jewMember
Well let me put it this way. How can you fast 25 hours on Yom Kippor to get rid of your sins only to say lie immediately after the fast by saying “Next year in Jerusalem” And Jerusalem is now rebuilt so if you want to excuse your dillydalying with it means when it is rebuilt the time is now. You do not have the money for a plane ticket? Well the Israeli government and Nefesh bnefesh will give you a free plane ticet. You want a torah source? Well read teh first rashi in the torah that states you have no proerty rights in AmericaJuly 11, 2010 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #689041oomisParticipant
How do we say L’Shana Habaah B”Yerushalayim on Yom Kippur, and then AGAIN on Pesach? It would appear that the latter cancels out the former? My answer is that that on Yom Kippur we are expressing our bakasha to Hashem that we should be in Yerushalayim by next year. On Pesach, however, we are not expressing a wish, but rather affirming our belief in the FACT that, just as we were taken out of Mitzrayim, we WILL be in Yerushalyim by next year.July 11, 2010 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #689042proud_jewMember
I do not know where oomis 1105 lives nor do I know what I will be doing next year, but I do know that I will make every attempt to be in Jer for both Pesach and Yom Kippor.
I would also like to point out to oomis 1105 that sfardeem do not say “Next Year in Jerusalem” after the fast on Yom KipporJuly 11, 2010 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #689043emoticon613Member
just for everyone’s general knowledge – JERUSALEM IS NOT REBUILT!!! until moshiach comes today or tomorrow. but that fact is that it is not rebuilt, the people who run it (i’m not specifically talking about bibi n., but wacky leftist zionists as whole) are no better than obama…we’re still in a very harsh and real galus, and making aliyah does not change that!!!
that having been said, it is a real zechus to live here and anyone who does is fortunate!! but you have to weigh your options carefully.July 11, 2010 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #689044oomisParticipant
“I do not know where oomis 1105 lives nor do I know what I will be doing next year, but I do know that I will make every attempt to be in Jer for both Pesach and Yom Kippor.
I would also like to point out to oomis 1105 that sfardeem do not say “Next Year in Jerusalem” after the fast on Yom Kippor “
I wish I could do likewise. And thank you for the informative nugget about sefardim not saying L”HB after the fast on Yom Kippur. I did not know that, and I always enjoy learning new things.
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