July 28, 2011 2:36 am at 2:36 am #598265adamsParticipant
The whole frum lifestyle, makes me feel trapped. Because of tuitions mainly. I want out. But the rest of the family wont’ agree.
It is too difficult to maintain 4 children on my low salary. Years ago I had very high salary as well as a part time business the income of the business alone was 60k per year. But that is over a long time and the salary is too low.
There is never money to make repairs including on the car the house.
there is no savings the current job has no 401k at all.
Perhaps I am ‘taking itout’ on frumkeit but it seems that you have to pay to play.
Omce you are in, when times were good, you can’t get out.
It doesn’t mean i could not keep Kosher or do some things in Yiddishkeit and the kids are older so wouldn’t be affected maybe only 1.
I keep reading that this life is unsustainable and i am experiencing it.
Every spare minute is spent working at extra jobs, selling junk online, every thing i have tried.
We get some scholarships but its not enough and they raise tuitions every year.
For a while i was really networking and talking with the successful people in my community trying to get help that is that they could help me in a part time job or i could sell their merchandize online (some of them have highly successful businesses) but nothing at all came of it and I dont bother with this type of networking anymore.
The pain of having a broken home and nothing at all for retirement is too much.
The only way out is i just stop giving my wife the paycheck but this will likely not end up good. so i am stuck.July 28, 2011 2:41 am at 2:41 am #791590CheinMember
The only way out is i just stop giving my wife the paycheck but this will likely not end up good. so i am stuck.
It sounds like the problem is an expensive wife. Are you saying she wants to continue living her expensive lifestyle?July 28, 2011 2:52 am at 2:52 am #791591yid4lifeMember
The fact that you are discussing this is amazing and I give you full credit for it. Very mature and I hope we can all help.
what i have learned from Rabbeim is that the struggles with money Jews have, isn’t because they have to pay yeshivah tuition, buy expensive esrogim and lulavim, mazos, shabbos food, frum clothing etc. All that money that we use for that, Hashem gives us is separate and isn’t included in our designated amount of money Hashem wishes to give us. Meaning the money we use for Judaism isn’t being taken away from our salary, because it is only there for us to use it for that. (It is like a separate bank account that we wouldnt have if we werent Jewish) So lets say God Forbid you would give up everything- you may still have a really hard time monetary wise, bc the money you spend on jewish things isn’t what is affecting the fact that you don’t have enough money.
I don’t know if that is so clear- I have it in my head and it’s hard for me to explain..
Also, a big key is to daven. Maybe your relationship with Hashem is fading and he is giving you this problem in order for you to call out to him and build a relationship…
Just some of my ideas..
May Hashem help you and your family and give you parnasa so that you can afford all of the necessaties in your life, and give you bitachon and strength to overcome this harship, Amen!July 28, 2011 2:58 am at 2:58 am #791592lil BMember
please read Garden of Emuna and Garden of Riches. written By R’ Shalom Arush.July 28, 2011 3:06 am at 3:06 am #791594nolashonharaMember
your situation sounds really hard. I am not one to usually comment, but I feel like you need some guidence. Do you have a Rav or friend you respect who you could speak to? Becuase even thinking about throwing away Yiddeshkeit because of money is a very hard thought to comprehend. I feel like you have more problems then just money and maybe it would help to talk to someone who knows you to give you Chizuk? Just know Hashem loves you and wants the best for you. He wants you to be happy serving Him. Sometimes we get into ruts and its hard to see pass the difficult time.
Hatzlacha Raba!July 28, 2011 3:07 am at 3:07 am #791595
Interesting in reading your philosophy because i have a friend who shed her frumkeit because she wants to get married and no one is knocking her door down. On the outside she looks and behaves frum. Now, she needs surgery and no one is offering a helping hand. Perhaps you want to hold her hand and get to know each other. Maybe in communicating you both will realize that shedding frumkeit will not yield big jobs or other personal needs.
I can give you her email address if you let me know how to contact you. Remember you need Hashem more than He needs you!!July 28, 2011 3:10 am at 3:10 am #791596yid4lifeMember
Yatzmich- why you being so mean?July 28, 2011 3:10 am at 3:10 am #791597OfcourseMember
Perhaps start by approaching the tuition commitees of the schools involved. Also, are there less expensive schools in your area?
What does your wife think might help? Does she have any thoughts on what to do?
Is there a Rov in your area who can get involved and help you? Sometimes someone looking in from the outside can see things that might help, that you might overlook or not be aware of.July 28, 2011 3:20 am at 3:20 am #791598am yisrael chaiParticipant
Many things that are the most worthwhile in life come with hardship and difficulty, including financial.
Ask medical school students, for example, and they’ll all tell you about their hefty student loans and tons of all-nighters they need to pull. But they keep their eye on the goal. And so should you.
Work on your emunah (and a joint budget) and you’ll feel the joy again.July 28, 2011 3:24 am at 3:24 am #791599mommamia22Participant
I’m sorry you’re going through such a rough time. You state that you pay 4 yeshiva tuitions a year, but that if you were to pull them out of yeshiva only one would be affected by that (why is that?). Pulling children out of yeshiva sends a message that it is not important or a priority. Torah is like food for children; if you don’t nourish them when they are young they will not grow properly. I see several choices available: 1) is there another yeshiva nearby that has a lower tuition rate? 2) speak with the current principal regarding freezing tuition hikes until things improve financially 3) ask if you can get an additional discount by helping out the yeshiva in some capacity (I know well respected people who had financial difficulty who did this. 4) (if your kids are old enough) lay down the law to them. Tell them that you expect them to help with expenses in whatever way they can and to contribute half of their earnings to you. Maybe they can do babysitting.
I know what it is to live for the current day and not be able to save. We do not own a home and have no
savings, but would never consider giving up yeshiva.July 28, 2011 3:33 am at 3:33 am #791600TheGoqParticipant
yatz that was pretty harsh, it took guts for the op to start this thread try to have a little more compassionJuly 28, 2011 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #791601mikehall12382Member
“please read Garden of Emuna and Garden of Riches. written By R’ Shalom Arush.”
Good suugestion…July 28, 2011 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #791602adamsParticipant
Thank you all, I feel better already. I don’t have a Rov like that. Part of my problems is that I am fairly closed person.
I also should have said that despite the burden of the tuitios, I am getting alot for it, The children have never caused me any problems whatsoever and are great kids. I am not so sure this would be the case in public schools, it could be but I know what i have gotten.
I think also for me i have to continue to play music i attain the feeling of closeness to Hashem through songs I have written. I haven’t done anything for 2 weeks maybe that is what i need to keep playing my music.July 28, 2011 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #791603a maminParticipant
I know at times it is extremely difficult for some of us to make ends meet. You talk about savings? Hmmm what does that mean when you have a large family K.A.H.? We live day to day and sometimes it feels like hour to hour BUT one thing I know, nothing lasts forever, when things get really low, that means they’re on their way up again! Hatzlocha!!!July 28, 2011 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #791604adorableParticipant
adam- I am really sorry for you and it hurt me to read your post. I think the first step (i know everyone mentioned it-i guess its really important) is to get a rav or a mentor of some sort. someone older and wiser than you who can see the whole picture and guide you out of this horrible “maze”. I will tell you that the book A garden of emunah is a wonderful start too. Kids in public school should not be an issue for you- as you said you never had issues with them- count your blessings!!!!!July 28, 2011 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #791605gavra_at_workParticipant
what i have learned from Rabbeim is that the struggles with money Jews have, isn’t because they have to pay yeshivah tuition, buy expensive esrogim and lulavim, mazos, shabbos food, frum clothing etc. All that money that we use for that, Hashem gives us is separate and isn’t included in our designated amount of money Hashem wishes to give us.
Tuition is NOT included. Even if Chinuch Habonim is, so much of tuition goes towards others, that it doesn’t count. This is a common fallacy that Frum Yiddin have, that it doesn’t make a difference what I do, Hashem will give me the same bottom line anyway. NOT TRUE. Hashem gives brocha based on what you do, but how much per input is Katzuv from Rosh Hashana (as per Rav Moshe Wolfson). (with exceptions for true Ba’allei Bitachon, like the Rambam). We (as torah yiddin) do not believe in predestination, even in financial matters
As for the OP, get out NOW. Homeschool your children and stop paying tuition. Or discuss the issue with the school administrator, and offer to keep your children in school for a discount, or you should pull them out. Tuition is not worth Shalom Bayis, for which even Hashem’s name is erased.July 28, 2011 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #791606
Adam, you say you are a closed person, so it must have been difficult for you to even open up here, so kudos for that. I am wondering if you ever went to the Yeshiva and told them outright “I paid full tuition when my salary and position allowed it. Now I have I have to admit that I have fallen on hard times and the expense of full tuition is breaking my back and putting a huge strain on my relationship with Hashem. The financial burdens is way too much for me to bear right now”. Please understand that for all the years that YOU and others pay full tuition you are carrying those who can’t. You are paying for your children plus extra for those who can’t afford it. When the tables turn for you, YOU have a right to say “I have paid my fare share plus up till now, at this point I am the one that needs the cushion”. So maybe that is the first place you need to go to ease the pressure. I am sure that when Hashem blesses you with an upswing you will once again do the right thing with “schar limud”.
As far as yiddishkeit and being Frum. Frumkeit has nothing to do with the cost of living. Yes “kosher” costs more but when you have less money you just adjust and learn to live with less. When you have to make adjustments in your life you realize that you didn’t really need as much as you had to begin with and you learn the values of “need” rather than “want”. It is a huge lesson in humility and Hashem has his reasons for teaching that to us.
Mazal and Bracha come from Hashem as does Parnasah. Why Hashem chooses who he gives what to, only he knows. Maybe it is the test of faith, how we accept what he gives us with a panim yafot? Do we accept the hardships with the same “thank you” as we accept the good times knowing that it all comes from Hashem with a reason? It is very difficult to do that I know, but then again WE are NOT in charge. Hashem is, and we get tested in many ways.
Adam, B”H you are only going through a monetary test and not a health issue. There are many wealthy individuals that Hashem tests with terrible health problems that their money can’t fix. If you, your wife and children are healthy b”h, and as you say are good kids that didn’t give you tzoris, hang in there, you will get through this rough monetary patch. Have faith and bitachon. Now is the time to strengthen your bitachon and NOT lose it. Turn more to Hashem and NOT away from him. Look to Hashem and let him know that you realize that it is a nisayon, a test and that you intend on passing it with flying colors.
Chein, that is a low blow. He never said anything about a wife and extravagant spending. Why would you say such a terrible thing? Why would you want to cook up a shalom bayis issue? Shame on you.July 28, 2011 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #791607open mindedMember
Niggunim and developing a personal relationship with hkbh (maybe try some hisbodedus-Breslin mehalech.) I know this sounds ridiculous especially since ur going through financial hardship, but maybe save enough money to go to e’y for a bit it can do unbelievable things. Just stand by the kosel for a hour and it should do enough to last a lifetime.
Just as an aside”I was once going through a hard time And I spoke to a rebbe that I had shaychis to. And he told me that “acc to the parameters psychologists set up, everybody in this day and age would be considered depressed. We shouldn’t look at it that u are different than Anybody else. Hkbh set up the world that ppl have down times and up times, we have to believe that hkbh did it so that we can come out better than before. Some ppl hide it better than others but deep down everybody has worries. But we can never look at it as an obstacle,if anything it’s a tool for our use. (I know it’s easy to say this when I’m not in ur situation, but if u repeat this over and over verbally to itself it will make an impression on u)”July 28, 2011 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #791608YatzmichMember
I understand why my post was deleted and I was probably a bit harsh, but when someone says “I want out,” that is a bit over the top for me.
OP says that he has four beautiful children and a wife and he says, “I want out. But the rest of the family wont’ agree?” What kind of talk is that? He complains that his current job doesn’t have a 401K? Well, like, Hello? Who has a 401k? I don’t and so do many other “regular Joes” in the street! Many people including myself work upwards of 50+ hours a week just to keep their head above water! Do you know how much tuition I owe?
My point is that I don’t think his situation is that different than MANY, MANY, PEOPLE these days, so what does he mean when he says “I want out?” Does he want to stop being frum and send his kids to public school? Does he want to give his wife a get and tell her, “Bye bye sweety, your on your own now?”
I understand his position, I’m right there with him, but A responsible adult doesn’t say, “I want out,” he gets his act together & gets with the program. His kids love him and rely on him, don’t even THINK of any other way.
I hope I’ve explained myself.July 28, 2011 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #791609
Yatzmich, I understand your point but you are missing the point of the OP. Yes, most adults can handle it but it is very important that when you feel yourself slipping or depressing or find that you just CAN’T handle it that you reach out for help. NO one should feel the burdens no matter what they are to the point of giving up or cracking under the pressure.
I am glad to hear that YOU are handling the pressure b”h, not everyone can and not everyone’s pressure is the same even though the situations are similar. Similar yes the same not necessarily. Please keep that in mind before answering negatively,July 28, 2011 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #791610adorableParticipant
adams- I understand your pain very very well. no I am not a father who has to support a family but I just feel like throwing the towel in. maybe its just a bad mood or a bad day but I get this quiet often. I just love sinning (I know that sounds nuts but its just so hard to be good!)July 28, 2011 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #791611littleappleMember
I went through a very difficult time financially recently and one thought that has been helping me alot is telling myself it could not be that Hashem brought me this far to drop me , hang on and try to focus on the good things , sounds like you have what to be thankful for! Brocha v’ hatzlacha !July 29, 2011 12:02 am at 12:02 am #791612oomisParticipant
Adams, I truly feel for you. I have been there, done that. B”H I no longer have to pay Yeshivah tuitions, but many years were extremely hard and humbling for us, as we begged and borrowed to help make ends meet. My husband worked three (and sometimes four) teaching jobs and I two part-time jobs (so that I could be home for my children whenever needed). I had to “cry” to the tuition committees, and some were harsher and less compassionate than others. It was NEVER a pelsant experience. But there are no guarantees that life will only give us pleasant experiences, unfortunately.
Now I am in the weddings parsha, and still have three single children at home. My husband just lost his job, and his retirement pension is not enough to keep us going. If I still had small children in Yeshivah, I would do the same thing all over again, and humble myself if needed, so that my children would stay in Yeshivah. Perhaps your wife can work out a work arrnagement with the school in exchange for your tuitions.
Whatever you do, please do not give up hope. Hashem pulls us out when we least expect it, but we have to sometimes do things that run contrary to our own egos in order to recognize the Source of that help.
I wish you every hatzlacha. Frumkeit is NOT the problem, but it surely can be the solution, if you allow it to be.July 29, 2011 12:11 am at 12:11 am #791613
adorable, seriously? Actually for most of us it is hard to be bad. That is probably because we know that we are always standing before Hashem. Why do you find it so difficult? Why do you “love” sinning? That is quite an odd statement yet quite telling at the same time.July 29, 2011 2:56 am at 2:56 am #791614minyan galMember
To adams and oomis and many of the other posters on this thread. I am humbled by all of you. I don’t think (in fact, I know) that I could put myself in your position. I thought that I have been through some hard times – both financially and personally – and yet they are peanuts compared to what you describe. And the fact that you did it (and continue to do it) for the sake of Yiddishkeit and your neshamas is far beyond my realm of knowledge and experience. Nobody that I have ever known has done such things for the sake of their religion. I thought it was tough when I paid tuition for one child and it was a drop in the bucket compared to what you pay. Yes, I have always given tzedaka, etc, but I really don’t think I have ever given until it “hurt”. Most of you know that spirituality and closeness to Judaism is something quite new to me, but I really don’t believe that I could ever do what all of you do and not grow to resent it. In many ways I am envious of you. oomis and aries you inspire more with each passing day. How I wish that I knew you in real life. adams, stick around here – you will get excellent advice and if things are continuing to be problematic for you – seek help from a therapist, a Rav or from both, if necessary. Asking for help is the hardest step and you have done that. I don’t say that it will be smooth sailing from the outset but you have begun a process that should bring you some help and resolution. Obviously, there are many directions that you can go from here, but deep down you know the one you should take and I think you are heading there now. Shabbat Shalom.July 29, 2011 3:14 am at 3:14 am #791615
Minyangal, thank you, and I must say that YOU inspire me as well. It is much easier for me to be who I am because I know no other way. It is quite more difficult to make a conscious choice to change and make spiritual improvements in your life. So YOU inspire me to reach greater heights. Thank you.July 29, 2011 3:55 am at 3:55 am #791616oomisParticipant
Nobody that I have ever known has done such things for the sake of their religion”
As kind as your words are, Minyan Gal, believe me, there is nothing special about me (I cannot speak for anyone else, because there really are some VERY special people here, yourself included). We do what we have to do, because we are highly motivated to do what we know is the ONLY thing for our children. I B”H have five, and though it was not always easy, we are still here. Maybe not so well-off financially (and BOY, would I EVER love to know what that would feel like, in good health!), but there are all kinds of wealth, many of them not even slightly monetary.
I know that doesn’t really help a person in practical terms, when they are financially suffering, but we are not alone, and if we can give each other chizuk, we are far from poor.
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