American Democracy

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  • #1916360
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If you heard a portion of this mornings’ interview with Trump on Fox & Friends, it was the usual hit parade of his alleged grievances but he seemed to revert to one theme in particular: his long-held frustration that American democracy is inferior to the kind of authoritarian rule exercised by his heroes in Russian, China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia etc. He again whined that, the toughest nation for him to deal with, “are the Democrats in the USA.” The most consistent and recurring theme of Trump’s worldview, going back decades, is his admiration for dictators and despots, irrespective of their morality or ideological character. Go back and google his public comments regarding the brutal Chinese suppression of the demonstrators at Tienanmen Square, his admiration for Saddam Hussein’s “brilliantly ruthless” eradication of domestic opposition, wistful about the life term granted to President Xi of China or his ongoing jealousy of Putin’s ability to govern by decree and occasional “taking out” (aka poisoning) of opposition leaders.
    I suspect this world view, if there is a second term, will push us beyond the most extreme view of a Federalist Society concept of the unitary executive and move us closer to an executive who pushes aside the legislative and judicial branches and rules more by executive order and subordination of the rule of law.

    #1916734
    akuperma
    Participant

    Democracy is supposed to be noisy and argumentative. It’s a feature, not a bug. It’s just like the people. If the Americans were quiet and mild mannered (somewhat like sheep), you would have very dull elections. But Americans tend to take things seriously about the country they run. This is a good thing. Remember that except for the Blacks and the Indians, Americans (including Blacks and Indians who migrated here from other countries), left their previous residence because they weren’t content to be sheep, and were annoyed with the sheep dogs, and wanted to move somewhere where they could become wolves, so of course they do a lot howling.

    If you want a place where elections are quiet and well mannered, and all the politicians say things that everyone says they agree with, try North Korea.

    #1916738
    dbrim
    Participant

    No offense, but you’re kind of clueless

    #1916758
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I guess I am “clueless”. When I first drafted the OP, I guess I thought I’d be waking up Wednesday AM in Kansas with Toto at my side but instead it looks like Pyongyang with a bowl of (half sour) kimchee.

    #1916801
    KGN
    Participant

    What about authoritarian leaders that actually fixed things? South Korea was once Authoritarian-leaning, and the ancient Kingdom of Israel most certainly was not a democracy. Then again, neither was Pre-Communist Russia.

    #1916838
    Tachles1
    Participant

    @gadolhadorah
    I guess you’re lucky that you didn’t wake up with that bowl of kimchi, because kimchi is 100% trief.
    1. We do not have a mesorah for it, AND
    2. Authentic kimchi is made with baby shrimp (saeujeot) that disappear after a few dats.
    So now you’re lucky that you do not need to rekasher your kitchen.

    #1916842
    The little I know
    Participant

    GH:

    Democracy is a good thing. But the underlying philosophy of it requires rules and guidelines to keep it in check. In fact, the Gedolei Yisroel who were around at the time of the American Revolution did express their pleasure at the idea of religious freedom. However, they were quick to note that these is a serious risk of doom in its wake. We talk of independence. But that concept gets redefined by the people. And they have taken it to ridiculous extremes, such as legalization and official recognition of hard drugs, gender identity and all its perversions, and bizarre extremes of victimhood. We are watching before our own eyes how leaders condone destruction and violence, yet will vehemently oppose religious services. We watch them decry “institutional racism” as if it still exists, yet will engage in clear anti-Semitism. We watch them severely punish so many, mostly Jews, for infractions, while the vilest of crimes get treated to free meals and sports tickets. Yes, Sodom.

    Trump is correct in his observation. But he is pointing to the goof in the system, and this was already known two centuries ago. And in case you’re interpreting his intention of instituting an oppressive system, stop the foolishness. That is far more likely to happen under the Dems. The Dems see their leadership as the license to take what is mine. They see savagery as an indication of victimhood and entitlement, not evil. Trouble is, I can’t see any silver lining in the Dems positions.

    #1916845
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Tachles1: You are missing out on one of the great culinary treats if you haven’t tried the kosher kimchi and great line of other kosher Korean delicacies available from KoKo Kosher. I can’t post the link but you can find their products on Amazon or google their direct order website. Hashgacha is from Rav Levy at Circle K.
    P.S. We don’t have a mesorah for Sushi either and my zeida told me they never had pizza in the alte heim.

    #1916846
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Sorry GH democracy isn’t having more votes than registered voters

    That is called cheating

    Democracy isn’t calling an election when the other side has enough votes to surmount

    Democracy isn’t finding 100,000 ballots that voted for Biden

    That is called cheating and I don’t tolerate it from my kids and for sure not a National election

    #1916856
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    CA: I suspect President-Elect Biden might disagree with your characterization albeit respecting your right to make such wild assertions. When the incumbent says at 3AM that he will ask SCOTUS to “Stop all voting” (he probably meant counting votes), including those that were legally submitted, you know its over. Its 100% certain that there were some “irregularities” yesterday as there always have been (and perhaps a few more considering the huge mail-in and early voting). But even Fox anchor just acknowledged that once Michigan and Arizona are called for Biden later today (as they likely will) there is no path for Trump. OAN just interviewed Niget (Brexit) Lafarge and he too seemed resigned to Trump “heading the opposition”. Go easy on the coffee….it is addictive.

    #1916863
    Health
    Participant

    GH -“his long-held frustration that American democracy ”

    Democracy is a Two-edged Sword.
    In this Country they have no problem Killing Babies in their Mother’s Abdomen.
    The next obvious Step is Euthansathia.
    Also they started Legalizing Hard Drugs. EG. – Oregon State.
    Do you realize how many Drunk Driver Deaths occur in this country?!?
    Do you think that Abusers of Hard Drugs won’t Drive a Car?!?

    This country is becoming More & More Immoral!
    Btw, Hitler Y’S was elected by a Democratic German Society.

    #1916881
    jackk
    Participant

    Health,

    I 100% agree with you that democracy is a two edged sword and that the people in this country are becoming more immoral.
    democracy is not the ideal when morality and religion are supposed to be the guiding lights of the society which is one nation under G-d. Because it ends with “liberty and justice for ALL.”

    #1917004
    dbrim
    Participant

    All that being said, democracy is the best system of governance we have in a very imperfect world. Unfortunately the democrat party would like to destroy our democratic system by doing away with the filibuster, packing the court with partisan judges, adding partisan senators from non-states like DC, and giving illegal immigrants the right to vote. It’s a good thing republicans are holding the senate so that we’re not doomed for eternity to a new totalitarian one-party reign. As for Trump, he kvetches a lot, but mature, intelligent people know that actions speak louder than words. Most Israelis (and Americans) here in Israel will be sad to see Trump gone. איו לנו על מי להישעו אלא על אבינו שבשמיס

    #1917057
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    When moishiach comes, we will obviously be living in a world where “hanging chads” and “ballot harvesting” will be historical artifacts. Until then, yidden in galus live in accordance to the rules adopted by the majority of citizens in the country in which they reside which may not comport with torah “morality”

    #1917141

    @GH: Until then, yidden in galus live in accordance to the rules adopted by the majority

    I agree. There is always tension between (1) our desire to live our independent life as a community, and (2) our desire to participate in public life and help humanity

    Modern Western world made it even more pronounced as it is easy to do both, so we have more choices than in the past. In US especially, part of the country philosophy is limited government. Thus, if we support limited government – and giving freedom to our community – we are killing 2 birds with one stone (hopefully, not a mother-daughter)

    #1917235
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    GD
    You are factually incorrect.
    Pure Democracy is a relativity recent invention and it is not common place throughout the world.

    In addition the United States of America is not a pure democracy rather it a Republic of States.
    The reason being was the Founders of this country feared what they called the “tyranny of the majority”.

    In other words they feared that the majority would seek to force the minority to live on their terms.

    As such the prescribed limited government where the true power lies not with the Federal Government rather with the states.

    #1917260
    Luna Lovegood
    Participant

    “In addition the United States of America is not a pure democracy rather it a Republic of States.
    The reason being was the Founders of this country feared what they called the “tyranny of the majority”.

    In other words they feared that the majority would seek to force the minority to live on their terms.”

    So instead the minority get to force the majority to live on their terms?
    Because that’s what is happening.
    California has a population of 39.51 million vs 762,062 in North Dakota. But each state has the same number of senators. So while it looks like Republicans have more people supporting them (because they control more states) it’s just that the Democrat-leaning population is disproportionately concentrated in fewer areas. Democrats in the Senates have fewer seats but represents more Americans and Republicans have more seats while representing fewer Americans. Which leads to the minority enforcing their will on the majority.

    #1917261
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    This is called representative democracy. Pure democracy was where everyone of a town voted for every bill.

    #1917262
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Ben Levi, the sharing of power between the central government (federal) and the states is called federalism. The civil war came out because of states wanted to secede from the union unwilling to follow the central government.

    #1917271

    Hi Luna, good to see you.

    #1917280
    Pekak
    Participant

    @Luna That’s how the system was set up. The House represents the population. The Senate represents the states.

    #1917290
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There was an argument between the large states which held that population should determine representation and the small states who wanted equal representation, so the Great Compromise was born having two houses, one equal (2) representation and the other represented by population.

    #1917324
    Luna Lovegood
    Participant

    @ Pekak and Reb Eliezer
    The House, which is supposed to be “representative” is just a skewed in favor of states with smaller populations, which tend to also vote Republican.

    #1917329
    Avi K
    Participant

    Dor, you obviously are completely unfamiliar with the Federalist Society. Their view is just the opposite of what you claim. I suggest that you do some research.

    #1917346
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Currently the Republicans (conservatives) advocate state rights limiting the federal government whereas the Democrats (liberals) are more for a central government. Trump passed COVID management to the states which created all kinds of travel state interaction problems.

    #1917348
    Chaim Shulem
    Participant

    Funnily enough, the ones who are the most “noisy and argumentative” (as akuperma puts it) are usually the biggest sheep. Lots of noise and rude behavior doesn’t actually translate into independently thinking adults. These are mutually exclusive.

    #1917417
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Actually the way the system was designed to work is that very little power was concentrated in the Federal Government.

    Most was concentrated in the States as such the Federal Government was purposely designed in way that a degree of consensus between minority & majority had to be agreed upon for a NATIONAL law to be passed.

    If there was no consensus the individual State governed as they please.

    For example purposes take abortion.

    The conservative “argument” is not that the Federal government should ban it.

    Originalists agree there is no part of the US Constitution that does so.

    They argue that there is equally nothing that allows the Federal government to force States to allow it as such let the States decide.

    So California which believes it’s correct can permit it.

    Oklahoma which believes it’s wrong can ban it.

    And we all get along because we do not force any one State to live according to another.

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