December 7, 2008 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #588821yashrus20Member
Since being in israel ive noticed a big problem with american olim. The kids that come from ages 13-18 tend to stray from the derech (not all but alot) and i think this has to do with the difference bet. american chariedim and israelin chareidim. So if you were parents who wanted to make aliyah but had kids in teenage yrs what would you do? (what is the better thing to do?). I was just wondering b/c i would think the ruchnius of the kids would be more important but hey what do i know. Thoughts?December 7, 2008 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #647957JosephParticipant
Ask a shaila.December 7, 2008 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #647958
i’m not exactly daas torah but i believe you have to make a decision as to where you want to raise your children before they grow up. moving a child to the other end of the world can be very disorienting and many teenaged kids tend to stray when put in that situation. it works the other way around, too. kids that come to america don’t have it easy here either.December 8, 2008 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #647959
yashrus20 – are you saying that what what we call charaidi in america is torani in israel and that when americans make aliyah they are moving into a place that isn’t what the kids are used to?December 8, 2008 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #647960
There were some excellent articles on the subject in the Jewish Observer, by Rabbi Yair Spolter, and some years ago (maybe even 10?) by either Rabbi Mordechai or Mrs Leah (maybe both) Kuber.December 8, 2008 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #647961dveykus613Participant
Rabbi noach orlowek has a “shita” not to move when you have kids from age 5 thru 15 for precisely this reason…but do ask your local rav, there may be specifc communities and/or schools that are not as “risky”. good luck! (ps look at hakshiva’s website – google hakshiva – i think they have a shiur for download from rabbi orlowek where he discusses the challenges of raising american kids in israel) good luck!December 8, 2008 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #647962intellegentMember
There will obviously be a difference in culture between two different countries! Not all teenagers are capable of literally starting a new and completely different life at that stage. Parents have to think of their kids before making the lofty decision of making Aliya.December 8, 2008 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #647963notpashutMember
As I’ve mentioned on a previous post DON’T COME WITH KIDS BETWEEN THE AGES OF 10 – 20!!December 8, 2008 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #647964
notpashut – why not with older teens? they often go learn in eretz yisrael anyway, by themselves….December 8, 2008 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #647965notpashutMember
It makes life much more difficult for them with shidduchim.
Most Americans won’t date them & they are not really mat’im for American-Israelis.December 8, 2008 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #647967
Tikva, when the kids go to school they are in a bubble. They are NOT with Israelis. And even when they marry and they determine to live in E”Y as Israelis there may be some issues that it even pains me to allude to because of the inevitable loshon hara that will ensue.
Do you have friends who made aliya, neighbors, or people with similar backgrounds, etc. whose insights you can glean from?December 8, 2008 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #647968
gee…i know people that turned out fine….December 9, 2008 3:16 am at 3:16 am #647969
it’s not like they’re doomed. but it’s a risk. the likelihood of one or more of the kids going off is very high. i know a few families that suffered from this, even though they had the right intentions. and there’s no saying “let’s try it and if it doesn’t work we’ll move back.” what’s done is done.December 10, 2008 5:22 am at 5:22 am #647970Bais Yaakov maydelParticipant
its not just a risk, its a HUGE risk.December 10, 2008 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #647971RBS_gimmelParticipant
It has a lot to do with how the parents raised the kids in the USA, and their level of gashmiyus. Yes, if you’re the type who has 3 cars, a huge room in the house for each kid, Florida vacations every winter, etc. etc., then you’re truly running a HUGE risk. but if you’re “down to earth” you have a much better chance of success.December 10, 2008 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #647972intellegentMember
It’s not only the gashmius aspect. It’s a whole new culture, language. A child can go from being Mr./Miss popular to a wierd foreigner.
I think even if they adjust “well” and don’t go “off the derech”, I still wonder if it is right to a child to uproot them at such a stage away from everything familiar to them.December 10, 2008 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #647973
Kitzur.net, you can live really, really modestly, but how shall I put this, funkily? Even out of town yeshivish people might have acculturation problems.December 10, 2008 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #647974
intell_gent- you’re so right!December 10, 2008 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #647975myshadowMember
Ask your own Rav, my parent were going to move after 9/11 but our Rav said not to because there were young teenagers at home, among other reasonsJune 15, 2009 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #647977yiddishmeidelMember
i was just in isreal for a visit… t’was amazzzing BUT i would never in a million yrs consider to live there!!!June 16, 2009 7:55 am at 7:55 am #647978mamashtakahMember
Yiddishmeidel: “i was just in isreal for a visit… t’was amazzzing BUT i would never in a million yrs consider to live there!!!”
Didn’t we just read about the meraglim who spoke lashon hara about E”Y? Think carefully before you refuse a gift that Hashem gave you! How can you possibly say such a thing?
Notpashut: “As I’ve mentioned on a previous post DON’T COME WITH KIDS BETWEEN THE AGES OF 10 – 20!!”
I wish I had seen this when it was posted six months ago. I don’t know where you come up with stuff like this, but it’s pretty obvious you do not know what you are talking about. How can you make a blanket statement like that? (BTW, I made aliyah 2 years ago, and I came with my wife and our 3 kids, all of whom were between the ages of 10 – 20!)
“The litmus test of a person’s yearning, and specifically for Eretz Yisrael, is that when the opportunity presents itself, and it will present itself for a person that yearns, they either take it or have a very, very good halachic reason to not fulfill it and if, for some reason, they’re bound to stay in the Diaspora because of the halachic issue, it should pain them.” — Rabbi Pinchas WinstonJune 16, 2009 9:06 am at 9:06 am #647979amichaiParticipant
yiddishmeidel- you should never speak that way about eretz yisroel!! sooner or later you will end up here.June 16, 2009 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #647980ambushParticipant
mamashtakah- great quote!June 16, 2009 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #647981ambushParticipant
It’ very very hard- BOTH WAYS! From E”Y to America and from America to E”Y.
To completely uproot a child from what they are used to, and put them in a totally different foreign situation…
Not just materialistically, also Hashkafically.
As mentioned before, a child who their whole life wearing black socks- and see’s everyone wearing them, Rebbitzen’s, teachers… and then come to a charadi school and is told it’s assur without really understanding (it’s really pretty hard to…) is not really, legitimately CONFUSED.
and this applies to many other area’s also.
the opposite way- I just received a phone call about a girl who had just come from E”Y, where everyone her age wore long sleeves, and is utterly confused- her family, home, and other friends from E”Y all wear long sleeves, and here everyone in her class is not, and understandably, she’s very out of place.
One of a Yid’s lifelong dreams should be to live in Eretz Yisroel. We are only living in chutz laaretz today because of one of a few heterim.
The love for Eretz Yisroel should be ingrained in a child, just like a love for Torah and Mitzvos.
But if you are currently NOT living there, defiantly a shielah should be asked.June 16, 2009 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #647982mamashtakahMember
Actually, the entire basis of the OP is flawed.
“The kids that come from ages 13-18 tend to stray from the derech (not all but alot) and i think this has to do with the difference bet. american chariedim and israelin chareidim.”
How do you know? Did you take a survey? Did you actually talk to the kids and their parents? Do you have some expertise in this field? How do you know they weren’t “going off the derech” before they came?
Oh, how I wish I saw this thread when it started!June 16, 2009 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #647983
This problem (OTD) has actually been pointed out in the Jewish Observer.
What do people in EY do about the Army? Is there anyone who works & does not have to go?June 16, 2009 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #647984aggadah99Participant
I take it from what has been posted here that no kids go OTD in the States.
If this is so, then that must be compensation for the fact living outside E”Y means your kiyum mitzvot is only practise for the real thing, when you are zocheh to come here 😉
Seriously, though, there are kids who have never set foot outside EY who have gone OTD and kids who survive aliyah without doing so. There are so many factors involved, that it is way too simplistic to make a blanket statement about kids of olim going OTD.
What is more, plenty of kids act out when going through adolescence and that includes doing things that pain their parents from a religious point of view. With many this is a temporary stage, a question of forging their own identity.
BTW we made aliyah 10 years ago with bli ayin hara 8 children aged at the time 2-14.June 16, 2009 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #647985
What do you & your children do about the Army, work & “the difference bet. american chariedim and israeli chareidim”?June 16, 2009 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #647986aggadah99Participant
GAW: Well first off, I should explain that we chose to live in Bet El which is chardal (chareidi leumi). Many guys tend to delay the army for as long as possible and then serve a shortened term of 9 months. In my own family so far, one son has no intention of going in the army, one learns in a hesder yeshiva (initially a 5 year program during which they do 16 months in the army as a group).
In general the army is not too keen on drafting chareidim.June 16, 2009 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #647987
aggadah99: Different story than many here. That’s also a “lifestyle” that many would be hesitant to join. It also explains why OTD is less of an issue by you, where JO & others are talking about chareidi.
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