August 2, 2011 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #794825Grubber YungMember
Haleivi, well put.August 2, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #794826tzippiMember
Aries, the magazine came out before that tragedy.
One could also argue, did they tie it in to the tragedy of the three gedolim? Strikes a different chord, true, but this would have been the time when, with shloshim coming up, we might have been as roused to action.
And the words at face value were re Hashem letting this happen. Assuming that is the exact quote, proper context, etc.August 2, 2011 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #794827HealthParticipant
HaLeiVi -“Health, you asked earlier who’s whim it should be up to.(!) It shouldn’t be up to anyone’s whim. If they want to have an article about an Hashkafic topic, it should be penned by an Adam Gadol.”
Do you think Gedolim have time to write articles? When you start your mag -I’d like to see how many Gedolim you get to write for it.
“Hashkafa, especially something from the Ikrei Emuna, is not to based on someone’s musings.”
Who said that this was what he based his article on? He based it on the way he was taught acc. to those Shittos who hold like him.
When you make your mag, you will include every Shittah possible.
“If an author would give some psychological advice I think the tables would turn.”
I doubt that, even if every shrink in the world disagreed with the author. He is entitled to his opinion. But in this case, he doesn’t have everyone arguing with him – he has plenty on his side!August 2, 2011 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #794828
The author made ONE point (read the article). That point was, hashem did not murder Leiby Kletzky.August 3, 2011 12:14 am at 12:14 am #794829HaLeiViParticipant
Since you take Hashkafa so lightly, you say that an Adam Gadol wouldn’t be bothered to write about it.
To those of you who wondered, in other threads here, why Hashkafa is not taught well enough in our Yeshivos, take a look at the attitudes expressed here, and you’ll understand. They can always make it up later when they come across a newspaper article, or perhaps a back panel of a cereal box.August 3, 2011 12:19 am at 12:19 am #794830popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Um. Are there people suggesting here that certain rishonim held that people could do things to other people against Hashem’s will and that Hashem is powerless to stop it?
Because that is definitely what you are saying if you say something could happen to someone without Hashem wanting it.
If that is true, I don’t know why we worship Him. What’s the point of asking Hashem to not get fired if He doesn’t control it?August 3, 2011 1:00 am at 1:00 am #794831bombmaniacParticipant
i think its more the point that hashem may have been gozer that leiby had to leave this world, but it was levi aron who decided how.
kind of like maakeh…you could say that if hashem didnt want the person to fall of your roof he wouldnt have fallen, when its more likely that the person was “destined” to die at that time anyway but the method was not set…just my 2 centsAugust 3, 2011 2:01 am at 2:01 am #794832
“Because that is definitely what you are saying if you say something could happen to someone without Hashem wanting it.”
If I jump out the window, its because hashem WANTED me to? I think (I hope) you mean to say he “allowed” it to happen. Just think about every action you may have done today. Did hashem WANT you to do all those things, or did he ALLOW you to excercise your bechira and do all those things. He WANTED you to eat tuna for lunch, take the train to work, talk during davening etc…?August 3, 2011 2:14 am at 2:14 am #794833popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I would differentiate between things you do to yourself and things that affect other people. So that, certainly you can beat your wife and Hashem chooses not to stop you as far as regards you, but unless Hashem wants your wife beaten, He will not allow it.
Really, to say otherwise makes Hashem not control the world.
Why would we daven to Hashem to protect us from beating husbands, if Hashem doesn’t bother to or can’t?
Why would we ask Hashem for food, if a person could stop that?
Why would we ask Hashem for rain, if a person could burn our fields?
Everything that happens to us comes directly from Hashem’s will. That is the G-d I believe in. That is the only type of god I can imagine existing.August 3, 2011 3:34 am at 3:34 am #794834mw13Participant
I enjoy a good debate just as much (and often more than) the next guy. However, I think some subjects are simply to sensitive to openly debate; you have to go to somebody who knows what they’re talking about and get clear, solid answers.
Guys, you’re arguing about one of the Ikrei Emuna here. This is not the kind of subject where any opinion goes – actually, this is the kind of subject that if you say the wrong thing, you might end up with no Olam Haba (CH”V). As such, I don’t think it’s good idea to just discuss this. Anybody who has a serious question should go see their LOR.August 3, 2011 5:16 am at 5:16 am #794835
You are not understanding me. Perhaps before the yomim norayim someone will start a discussion on the tefilla “uvrosh hashana yikasevun…..mi bikitzo…. Until then, I’m focused on the 9 days.August 3, 2011 8:11 am at 8:11 am #794836HealthParticipant
PBA -“Because that is definitely what you are saying if you say something could happen to someone without Hashem wanting it.”
Those Shittos that say this -I’m only aware that they say this on killing someone. Go back and read all the posts to see whom holds what.August 5, 2011 2:48 am at 2:48 am #794837JRafaelMember
I would like to point out that the quote from Ami was not the author speaking; it was Rabbi Michel Twerski from Milwaukee. So I don’t see why there is a possibility of complaint against Ami; they were writing what a well-known rav told them. If anything, one can complain to Rabbi Twerski.August 5, 2011 2:55 am at 2:55 am #794838JRafaelMember
I also want to point out something else. Rav Yerucham in Daas Torah in Bamidbar, page 138, brings down from the Ramchal that the Ribbono Shel Olam doesn’t “do” evil, he was just “borei ra.” So I think you aren’t supposed to say that the RBSO killed Leiby, like Rabbi Twerski said, even if you hold that a baal bechira can’t kill someone who isn’t chayav meesa. It would be a chutzpah to speak like that about the RBSO.August 5, 2011 5:01 am at 5:01 am #794839HaLeiViParticipant
That’s true, we don’t say that the Ribbono Shel Olam killed him, like it says, Mipi Elyon Lo Tetze Hara’os. But, we do say that it was a Gezera. The Sattan is doing his job just as planned, and yet we still don’t say, Hashem planted this evil idea into my head.August 5, 2011 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #794840
AMI Editor discusses feedback over the article in the newest issue. Read it. May I also suggest contacting Rabbi Twerski and asking him yourself to clarify his statement if you feel it is apikorsus.August 7, 2011 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #794841tzippiMember
B”H I qualified my first post.
And I had no idea that Rabbi Twerski, shlit”a said this.
But yeah, context is everything. I’m glad this is dying down. May I suggest that no one from this peanut gallery called the coffee room say ANYTHING without reading the full paragraph.
And to the OP, if the controversy is still roiling, please pass this suggestion on to the hockers.
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