April 6, 2021 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1962847lakewhutParticipant
Why do Israelis from a Russian background pronounce a Shin with a bit of a R at the end?April 7, 2021 8:30 am at 8:30 am #1962976
For the same reason there’s a difference in pronunciation between Yidden from Lita vs Galicia vs Hungary vs Germany vs Italy vs Syria vs Yemen vs Morocco.
Or the differences in the (so-called) “Chasidish havara” vs the Litvish havara vs the Sefardic havara vs the Teimani havara (which is actually closest to what we used at Har Sinai.)April 7, 2021 9:37 am at 9:37 am #1963000lowerourtuition11210Participant
ujm: from where is your proof?April 7, 2021 10:27 am at 10:27 am #1963023
lot11210: It is commonly known and long recognized that the Teimani pronunciation is closest to the original.
Between the Ashkenazic and Sefardic pronunciations there are claims one is better than the other. But even though Ashkenazim came from Eretz Yisroel while Sefardim came from Bovel, it is unknown between those two which is slightly closer to the original.April 7, 2021 11:15 am at 11:15 am #1963050
Ths Chasam Sofer mentions that some Polish Jews don’t pronounce the last yud in Hashem’s name.April 7, 2021 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1963047
The Hungaeians have a ‘u’ with two dots on it or two small vertical lines on it a short sound or a long one used by the Oberlander to pronunce the shurik or the vov with a dot in it as the german gruen, green.April 7, 2021 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1963160
>> Ashkenazim came from Eretz Yisroel while Sefardim came from Bovel,
Ashkenazim come from a 100 guys who decided to go North. “Sephardim” are everyone else ..April 7, 2021 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1963164CTRebbeParticipant
One that bugs me this time of year is when yeshivishe people refer to chal hamoed. For every other cholam vowel they love to say “oi”, so how did the intermediate days of pesach and sukkos become chal hamoed?April 8, 2021 3:13 am at 3:13 am #1963238
AAQ: If you accept to believe what the goyish antisemites so-called reverse historians most recent version of their discoveries. Do you also accept their Khzar theories?April 8, 2021 11:27 am at 11:27 am #1963373
ujm, I was quoting from memory genetic testing results I read about that looked pretty reasonable – Ashkenazim came from a small community of Jewish men. Sephardim are pretty diverse. This would be, I think, in contradiction with Khazar theory.
does it contradict your mesorah? which part of my statement?
1) diversity of Sepahrdim? depends whon we call S. I fthose who were in Spain, then they might have all come from the same place. But we nowdays call every non-A a S, including Persians, Yemenites
2) small group of first men Ashkenazim? what are other views? Note that there might have been more at the beginning, just not all had surviving eineklesApril 8, 2021 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1963552
AAQ: “small group of first men Ashkenazim” is crock.April 8, 2021 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1963562
The “few first men” theory is based on the absurdity that a tiny group of Jewish men who married non-Jewish European women begat the tens or hundreds of millions of offspring.April 8, 2021 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1963595CHOOSIDParticipant
Ujm, you called the chassidish havarah a “so called” havarah?oh, so the Divrei Yoel davend in a “so called havarah”? The Baal Shem,The Maggid,The Kedushas Levi…THE LIST GOES ON AND ON!! They all davend in a “so called havarah?”April 8, 2021 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1963596CHOOSIDParticipant
The Maskilem were very makpid with dikduck…look what happened to them!!April 9, 2021 5:21 am at 5:21 am #1963623
on one hand, I looked up the literature again, and see indeed that the data is unclear. Some say it is tensof thousands
on the other hand, I don’t think it is counter-intuitive that those communities were started by small groups of traders. do we have records of large community migrations? Northern Europe experienced rapid growth due to advanced in agriculture (beans->proteins->kitniyos) and outgrew early centers and Ashkenazim benefited from that rapid growth.
What is your alternative data?April 9, 2021 9:12 am at 9:12 am #1963679
Chosid, some words change their meaning if not pronounced correctly, ידמו changes its meaning without a dagesh in the dalet, meaning similar and with a dagesh, silent. כי לא כלו if cholu is pronounced with the stress in the beginning the meaning is the opposite. Your benevolence has not began whereas at the end, did not finish. So do not dismiss dikduk outright because of the maskilim who only cared about it.April 9, 2021 11:06 am at 11:06 am #1963715Avi KParticipant
There is no doubt that local languages influenced how Jews pronounce Hebrew. We know that the Ephraimites had a different pronunciation. It stands to reason that each of the other tribes also had somewhat different pronunciations just as people from different places pronounce English differently.
From masechet Haggiga we know that Jews from Haifa and Beit Shean did not differentiate between alef and ayin. Being that Beruria knew that Rabbi Yosi haGalili was from the Galilee as soon as he opened his mouth (Eruvin 53b) it seems that they spoke differently than Judeans.
It is also clear that the Ashkenazim changed their pronunciation at some point. For example, one of the Baalei Tosafot is רבי אליעזר ממץ. In French it is pronounced “Messe”. Another is the שר מקוצי (Coucy). We see from the word אצטדיון (stadium) that this was the original pronunciation of the tzaddi (the alef was due to the fact that they could not pronounce a sheva nach at the beginning of the word – many Arabs also say things like “ibseder” for “beseder”).April 9, 2021 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1963753
RebE >> So do not dismiss dikduk outright because of the maskilim who only cared about it.
A good point. Just because maskilim did something, doe ot men it is wrong..
We were confronted with a new phenomenon of Enlightenment ad we still did not figure out what to do. It takes time.. As R Steinsaltz answered about reasons for Shoah and about halochos of electricity – “we will know better in a couple of hundred years”…. So, we had different responses, some proved unsuccessful despite based intentions, like Moses Mendelssohn. Approaches rejecting all innovations looked more successful in a short term, although those approaches might have led many Jews to try assimilation, Reform, etc [that is usual opinion is that Reform was at fault, but maybe O- attitudes allowed Reform]. We also have long term consequences, such as communities lacking professional education and can’t figure out which side the mask is put on.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.