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I heard this story from Rabbi Brander at Y
He had invited a family for Shabbos lunch that was far removed from Yiddishkeit and had almost no Jewish knowledge. The wife mentioned that her husband had to very strong personal traits: 1. h was scrupulously honest in business; 2. he refused to speak loshon hora ( she didn’t use the word ) or allow it to be spoken in his presence. Every Friday night they went out to dinner with her parents and she always had to remind them no to speak it.
Towards the end of the meal the husband mentioned to Rabbi Brander that his great great grandfather also was a rabbi. He new nothing about him other than his name, the Chafetz Chaim
I doubt it has anything to do with genetics.
If frumkeit or midos were a function of genetics (similar to whether one is left handed, or whether one is bald), what zechus would it be to do mitsvos – since if behavior is a matter of DNA rather “free will”, tsadikkim and reshai’im have no choice but to be what they are.
Rabbi Chafetz Chaim had special genes.
The Chofetz Chaim was still alive 85 years ago. I didn’t know any of his children were so not frum that this great/great/grandchild would have almost no Jewish knowledge.
Are you sure these are the facts?
I agree with geordie613. It sounds very unlikely.
The Chofetz Chaim was still alive 85 years ago. I didn’t know any of his children were so not frum that this great/great/grandchild would have almost no Jewish knowledge.
I heard a story that 2 grandchildren of the chofetz Chaim met sometime after the war one was male and the other female. it seems the female went off the derech and the male asked the female to relate a story of their grandfather. The woman said, I asked Zaide why he insists on living such a backward lifestyle and doesnt become modern and I forget what he said, but it was something about what modern life brings that is negative
The reason I mention this is because it is very possible the Chofetz Chaim has non-relgious decendents. I also heard he had a non-religous son
I remember learning that if a person works hard on a certain middah than it will be inherited by his/her children. Meaning the children will have the middah naturally without having to work hard for it. I don’t know the source. Other than I heard it in high school many years ago. Anyone heard of this or know a source?
nisht – if you know I’ll probably delete it, what’s the point? (just curious really)
I see he stuff that goes through from certain posters.
My posts are way less offensive. And certainly do not besmirch Whole swaths of Yidden. Apparently, those can get posted.
That’s an interesting observation. I do notice some sweeping besmirching comments, more from “your camp” than his, but I believe those are put through to facilitate discussions from both sides. When they are specifically aimed to humiliate/mock/ridicule only one poster they get deleted regardless of who writes them, there are halachos about that type of speech as well as CR rules.
Either way, I will try to be more cognizant of it.
Thanks for responding.
I guess anything is possible but he would know the name Chofetz Chaim and almost nothing else about Yiddishkeit? Never had any curiosity about his family?
My “camp”?
What is my “camp”?
And who, allegedly in my “camp”, makes more sweeping deragatory comments than the other “camp”?
I will admit to making derogatory remarks about OO, but that is about the “religion” and the leaders who are ?????? ??????? and just evil. But not about swaths of Jewery. I will take issue with commenters who do make sweeping remarks about frum people or Gedolim. I won’t name such commenters here.
And BTW,
Shabbos Sholom to all.
I guess anything is possible but he would know the name Chofetz Chaim and almost nothing else about Yiddishkeit? Never had any curiosity about his family?
There is a very well known actress who is not Halachically jewish who is a decendent of the taz and speaks about it sometimes. However she doesnt seem too interested in being like her ancestor
there is an emerging science of epigenetics which would explain how a character trait would be inherited.
He objected to my deletion of his post.
All this talk about “camps” and “Jewish genetics” makes me feel uneasy.
newbee: Of course not. Leshitascha, the guy in the story isn’t Jewish.
“Of course not. Leshitascha, the guy in the story isn’t Jewish.”
The guy in the story is Bernie Sanders
Did he have a Christmas tree?
It can’t be Bernie,
He’s old enough to be the chofetz chaim’s brother
One of Shuvu’s books has a story about a family from Russia who
turned out to be descendants of the Chofetz Chaim. The mother was
aware that her (great-?)grandfather had been a respected rabbi.
If frumkeit or midos were a function of genetics (similar to whether one is left handed, or whether one is bald), what zechus would it be to do mitsvos?
A person might inherit certain traits, but he would have the
ability to go against them. “L’fum tza’aro agro” does mean
that whatever is easier earns less reward…
I think the reason no one knows about the Chofetz Chaim having had non-religious descendants is because it’s loshon hora!
geordie:
I don’t know why anyone is surprised. We’re talking between the two WW. Who wasn’t affected? Anyhow, the fact that you never heard of grandchildren of the C”C who were lost to yiddishkeit L”A is a reflection of your lack of basic historical knowledge, as it is very well-known.
Zahavasdad:
The story was told by R Shimshon Pincus. Here’s a link:
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=19972&ocr=%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9C+%D7%96%D7%A7%D7%A1
????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?”? , ?? ???.? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???,? ?????? ?’? ??? ??? (????”?) [??”?],? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?”? , ??? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ????.? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??-???? ??? ???? ?????,? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????,? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? . ??? ???,? ???? ?????-????,? ??????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? , ??? ???? ???? ????? : ?”?????,? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???????????,? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ?????”? – ?”???,? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????,? ?? ????? ????”.? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???????.? ????? ?? ??? ???? , ??? ??? ?????? ?????,? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? . ??? ?? ?? ?”? ?? : ?”?? ???? ?? ?????????? ???? ? ?? ????? ?? . ?? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ? ???? ?]?? ??? ?? ?”? ???? ???? ??? ! ] ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?????.? ?? ?? ??? ?????.? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? – ??? ???? ??????”? ! ??? ??? ???? ?? ?”? ??”?.?
For her identity, see: link removed
Not quite the same as the story ZD seemed to have been relaying.
Either way, they way the story is written in Nefesh Shimshon is not at all like what ZD wrote.
The story is very much like ZD said, and ZD was open about the fact that he did not recall the entire story, and that his point wasn’t the story, but that the Chofetz Chaim had a granddaughter who nebach wasn’t frum.
DY,
It is a different story. I never suggested that the CC did not have grandchildren that unfortunately went of the derech.
Unfortunately “ayn bayis asher ayn shom meis”. The draw of the “enlightenment” was very strong.
That is why then, as now, the Rabbonim recommend keeping away from certain hashkofos. And speak very strongly against them.
Further,the story in Nefesh Shimshon is well written.
NDG, how is the story substantially different?
LC, what do you mean, “in some ways”? My understanding is that it was very, very, bad.
DY, I agree. I guess I was trying not to overstate it but , yes, it was very bad. It was why the Gedolim , who were initially opposed, realized it had to be done and gave their approval to Bais Yaacov
Im not sure when exactly but sometime in the 1800’s school became mandatory for both boys and girls. As boys went to Cheder, this usually satisfied the mandatory educational requirement. There was no equivelant for girls so they had to go to public school, thats why Beis Yaakov was formed
DY,
“NDG, how is the story substantially different?”
I didn’t say it was substantially different, I said the way it was written was very different. The writing styles are incomparable.
LC,
I have no idea why you are addressing your comment to me. I see nothing in your comment that says anything contradictory to what I have said.
Come on, now. You wrote, Not quite the same as the story ZD seemed to have been relaying. and, It is a different story.
DY,
It could be just that they way they are written is so different that to me it is different.
I hope you put half as much ameilus into your learning as you do in your effort to get your insults through. We aren’t even discussing hashkofo here so you cannot claim you are defending Torah.
During the early 1900 the draw to secularism was so great that even learned yeshiva students became irreligious. The only question is why did they refer to their great great grandfather as the Chofetz Chaim and not R’ Yisroel Meir Kagan. It could be the great great grandchild used R’ Yisroel Meir Kagan name and it just wasn’t retold that way.
See Kli Yakar Parshas Re’eh Perek 12 passuk 25 – epigenetics min haTorah minayin…
The Chofetz Chaim’s last name was not Kagan it was Poupko, Im not sure why this isnt well known
The Chofetz Chaim’s name was never Poupko. One of his sons took that name, but it was never used by the Chofetz Chaim or his ancestors.
Queen. the source for the concept of spiritual legacy is Midrash Raba Shmos 5. There the example (msiras nefesh for a mitzvah)is a play on words, Yisro sheltered a goel running from a sonei, and Yael sheltered a sonei ( Sisrah-in order to kill him) running from a goel (Barak)
Here there is a time gap of some three hundred years, and Yael is possible only related to Yisro by marriage. This is in line with the language (“that mitzva will not stop (from being represented) in that household) and also with our concept of free will. If your children or grandchildren choose to excel in the causes and mitzvos in which you did, that is icing on the cake.
twisted: Thanks
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