Another Chasuna Issue

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  • #592162
    iluvtorah
    Member

    i have this pet peeve about the way some people talk to (make demands of) the waiters at Chasunas. the tone is not always what one would expect from people who live a Torah life.

    #696889
    charliehall
    Participant

    Well said, iluvtorah. I’ve been personally embarrassed at the way frum people have treated service people at frum events. All my rabbis have stressed the need to be a mentch at all times, ESPECIALLY in our relations with non-Jews with whom we come into contact. For a non-Jewish waiter to go home after an event and say, “I really love working Jewish events, they really are great people; their Torah must really mean something to them.” is a kiddush HaShem. But for the same person to go home and say, “These Jews are all rude jerks and I hate working for them; from where do they get that bad behavior?” is a chilul HaShem.

    #696890
    LAer
    Member

    Not a chasuna issue… a mentchlichkeit issue. Not very uncommon these days, unfortunately.

    #696891
    aries2756
    Participant

    Here is another one: How about the way women, especially girls, just push you out of their way? There is no “heter” to speak down to a waiter at a wedding or anywhere else. Adarabah, you have to make a kidush hashem at every opportunity and show that we as yiddin are respectful, courteous, gracious, considerate and appreciative of others.

    I was just at 2 wedding in E”Y and was absolutely shocked that there was no consideration or derech eretz and these young girls just pushed and shoved with even an excuse me or “slicha”. It was ridiculous bordering on obnoxious.

    #696892
    oomis
    Participant

    I recently thanked the waitress who served our table at a chasunah which I attended, and then went to her supervisor (the maitre d’ or manager, not sure what his title was) specifically to tell him what an efficient, pleasant, and truly excellent employee she had been. He seemed astonished that someone would take the time to do that, but i am astonished that more people do NOT do it. We don’t tip the wait staff at a simcha, so at the very least we can make them look good in their boss’ eyes, especially when they have given superb service to us.

    #696893
    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    Why only waiters?

    I’m not saying I agree with the actions of the “emergency chute flight attendant” but I see where he’s coming from. He has one of those jobs (like waiters) where no matter how well you perform your job it doesn’t get noticed until something inconveniences someone else.

    Every day when I take the subway I try to thank the conductor, they all appreciate it. When I get to work or leave I make sure to great the security guards or say “good night” to them. It doesn’t take any time or cost me any money but I can tell from the smiles I get that they appreciate it.

    #696894
    aries2756
    Participant

    I have made it a point to say good night and thank you to any of the waiters, waitresses, elevator staff, etc. as I leave a restaurant or simcha. Especially at a simcha. They don’t know who was seated at their table, and they don’t know who they were helping, so a general thank you to all is the best rule.

    #696895
    littleeema
    Participant

    Our son’s chasuna was held at a very “posh” hall in New York. The morning after the wedding, I called the caterer/owner to thank him for all he had done. His secretary asked me why I wanted to talk to him. When I told her, she said it was the first time she could recall that a baal simcha called to thank, not complain. Bemused, I then called the photographer, florist and band – same reaction!

    If we want our children to build homes based on middos tovos – specifically hakaras hatov – shouldn’t we be makpid to express our hakaras hatov on the day they begin their homes?

    #696896
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I recently thanked the waitress who served our table at a chasunah which I attended, and then went to her supervisor (the maitre d’ or manager, not sure what his title was) specifically to tell him what an efficient, pleasant, and truly excellent employee she had been.

    I make it a point to ALWAYS say “thank you” to waiters at halls or restaurants that we attend whenever they serve us, clean up our dishes, re-fill our water, or do anything else helpful.

    I never, however, went and complimented them to the maitre d. perhaps I should in the future.

    The Wolf

    #696897
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I make it a point to say “good morning william” (not his real name) to the security guard in my office building. He really appreciates it.

    #696899
    apushatayid
    Participant
    #696900
    Aishes Chayil
    Participant

    There was a story of how a certain Gadol(no point in mentioning his name), used to make a point of a greeting a nun whenever he passed her by in the park.

    When this Gadol was niftar, the nun made a point of how special and freindly he was. What a kiddush Hashem!

    #696901
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    For several months this past year, I was visiting a certain 7-11 twice a week. I was in a group of 5 people. The night manager is an immigrant man who speaks poor English. When we would walk in each time, I would say hello to the manager and the cashiers, as we all recognized each other.

    Once, one of the members of my group asked the manager if he could use the restroom. The manager pointed to me and asked my friend if he was with “that fellow”. My friend said, “yes”, and was therefore allowed to use the restroom.

    I thought we were all friends with the manager, but apparently it was only me.

    #696902
    shlomozalman
    Member

    If the table I am at gets good service from a waiter at a wedding or bar mitzvah, I and others at the table pool together and give him a(n extra) tip.

    #696903
    oomis
    Participant

    Shlomozalman, that’s very nice, but not usual or excpected.

    Pahutah has the right idea, it is a matter of mesnchlechkeit, not a chasunah issue. Also, when you compliment a wait staff member to the boss (and I do it in restaurants all the time, as it is quite easy to find the manager, not as easy to do it at a simcha), it lets them know they have hired a valuable employee, and perhaps it will make the manager look at that employee with a bit more appreciation. So often people complain when things are NOT done as they wish, but how often do we acknowledge when someone gets it right?

    I also call the flower guy after my daughter’s wedding (we used a flower gemach rental in Boro Park), the owner/manager was such a pleasure to deal with and they did a magnificent job at an extremely fair price. When I called him the next day to thank him for the beautiful work they did to enhance our simcha, he was astonished, and his response was, “WHAT a nice lady you are! I can count on the fingers of one hand how many people have ever called me back in all the years that I am doing this.” I expressed my surprise that this was the case, because my husband and I are very big on hakoras hatov, but apparently some folks feel if they paid for it, they deserve the thanks for giving the guy parnassah. I don’t feelt hat way.

    #696904
    Helpful
    Member

    The hakaros hatov, and the thank you’s, must go equally both ways. From the business to the customer for providing business, and from the customer to the business for the service.

    #696905
    minyan gal
    Member

    A few weeks ago I made a purchase at a local department store. The sales clerk was absolutely wonderful. She went above and beyond the call of duty – even to the point that when I mentioned the item I was buying (which was a bit of a splurge) was a birthday gift from me to me – she called over another clerk and they sang Happy Birthday to me – she even had other customers join in. She also gave me several bonus gifts that she had available. The next day I called the HR department of the store. When I said that I wanted to talk about a particular clerk in the cosmetic department, I immediately sensed a change in the tone of her voice as I am quite sure she believed she would hear a complaint. I proceded to tell her of my wonderful experience in the store. The HR person couldn’t believe her ears. She told me that nobody ever calls to commend a staff member, just to complain and that this was a pleasant surprise. She assured me that the clerk in question would be told how pleased I was with her service.

    I have done this several times over the years because I always find the few minutes that it takes to phone when I have a complaint, so why not find a few minutes to express satisfaction. I firmly believe that if more people did this, shopping (or dealing with any service industry) would be a far more pleasant experience.

    #696906

    as so many of you said, its mentchlachkeit and not a chasuna issue.

    Someone in the beginning said something about girls being so impolite and rude in E”Y. I just want to say, that they don’t even chap and realize it. It’s unfortunately part of their mentality. That’s why they’re called sabras. They come across harsh on the outside, but they REALLY care. I can’t tell you how many unbelievable ?? ???? ????? stories go on their, that i personally experienced. Of course there are those who have derech eretz, but those who don’t are the one’s that stick out. Also i’ve found, that it’s a bit better in places other than Yerushalayim. Bnei Brak and especially more “out of town” places in E”Y are more relaxed a bit, and the people are more respectful.

    #696907
    Jose
    Member

    Charlie,

    Why especially non-Jews? Does your Rabbi believe that Jewish people are less deserving of respect than non-Jews? That it is a bigger chilul Hashem to be impolite to a goy than a Jew? That makes no sense at all. Olom hafuch ra’isi.

    And for the record, I am horrified by some of the stuff that people post and probably not always the same stuff that you have been embarrased by.

    #696908
    oomis
    Participant

    Jose, we live unfortunately (most of us, anyway) in Galus, a Goyishe Galus, and therefore we need to be especially mindful that we do not make a chillul Hashem that in addition to being a terrible aveira, which is bad enough, can also be used against us.

    #696909
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I also call the flower guy after my daughter’s wedding (we used a flower gemach rental in Boro Park), the owner/manager was such a pleasure to deal with and they did a magnificent job at an extremely fair price. When I called him the next day to thank him for the beautiful work they did to enhance our simcha, he was astonished, and his response was, “WHAT a nice lady you are!

    We had a similar experience. As our sons were writing out their thank you cards for their Bar Mitzvah, we suggested that they write one to the musician, photographer and caterer as well. Yes, it wasn’t really necessary since they were paid for their services. Nonetheless, at least some of them contacted us afterward to tell us that they were touched that they received thank yous for the work they did.

    The Wolf

    #696910
    rt
    Participant

    common decency isn’t so common…

    #696911
    aries2756
    Participant

    Regarding the lack of derech eretz at the wedding. I want to mention something else that I was appalled at. A very chashuv (and elderly) rebbetzin came to the Chassanah after dinner was served as she was a great aunt of the Chasson. Now remember it was extremely hot in E”Y at the time. She was practically pounced on the minute she entered through the doors. The girls barely allowed her to get past the doors. It took her at least half an hour to just get in and sit down, and then they were literally on top of her, seriously maybe three inches from her nose. Can you imagine being surrounded into a huddle with barely room to breathe when you are in your 80’s? All they were interested in was getting a brocha for themselves and not one was concerned about the Rebbetzin’s own comfort, health and safety. I barely managed to get a cup of cold water in to her.

    I was just a guest at the wedding and couldn’t say anything, but I was ready to explode and say “Derech Eretz, move back, give her some room to breathe, make a line you will each have your turn.” In my mind I was imagining what my own mother would feel like if she was surrounded in this way. It was terrifying.

    #696912
    oomis
    Participant

    Wolf, I had my son do somewhat the same thing, except in our case, he went up to each of them personally at the end of the simcha to thank them. I like the idea that you had them write thank you notes.

    #696913
    Jose
    Member

    Oomis,

    I must say that I do not agree with that as a reason to be give preference to non-jews.

    It is important for a person to have common decency and express thanks to anyone who helps or serves them, but one should not be preferred over the other. There is no logic in that.

    I believe it is at least as damaging if one gives preference to non-jews. Non-jews will say even other jews prefer us, there must be something right in our demeaning Jews.

    It is the same with commenters saying Jews are cheaters, leaches, dishonest etc, that so many alleged jewish commenters spout on blogs. If jews say that about themselves, you do not think non-jews feel vindicated in having their antisemitic stereotypical views?

    When a jew voiciferously supports the building of mosques regardless of the circumstances yet will never support a yeshiva or a shul trying to build do you not think that impacts negatively how the non-jews look at our right to build shuls and yeshivos?

    And that is before we discuss the negative impact such an attitude has had historically going back to the misyavenim and all the participants at seudas acheshveirosh. And how such an attitude did not help in the least and may even have contributed to the tragedy in Europe.

    To sum it up, the disprespect of yidden for others acting as yidden is much more dangerous to the well being of Jews and there is no reason why a non-jew deserves respect more than a Jew.

    #696914
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Really, now, does it have to be either/or?

    How about we show proper respect for Jews AND non-Jews?

    (Yeah, I know… a real apikorus-ish idea… well, what do you expect from someone like me?)

    The Wolf

    #696915
    LBK
    Participant

    A few weeks back, I was in the Woodbourne shoe store with my kids, and the sales person was measuring the foot of a kid who about 3 or 4 years old. At the end, the kid said “thank you, man, for measuring my foot”. The sales person was so impressed he told the kid’s mother, I’ve beend diong this for X number of years, and noone has ever thanked me before. He then called out to his wife and said “this boy thanked me!” and the wife said “noone ever does that!” It’a a little sad that noone show appreciation for anything, but I must say I was very impressed with the child, and the upbringing he must have….

    #696916
    Jose
    Member

    Wolf,

    Where did you see either or? The question was why non-Jews more. I said “It is important for a person to have common decency and express thanks to anyone who helps or serves them, but one should not be preferred over the other. “

    Perhaps you can inform us why you feel it is important to say everything is apikosrsish? You add that to so may of your comments.

    #696917
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    My point, Jose, was why can’t we simply respect other people without having to worry about who deserves respect more.

    As to your last question — it’s very simple. Many people in the Jewish community would maintain that I am an apikorus for some of the views I hold. So, if I’m a heretic, then it follows that most (if not all) of my opinions are probably heretical as well. It’s what’s expected of a stupid no-good low-life like me.

    The Wolf

    #696918
    oomis
    Participant

    Jose, the fact remains, we live in a goyishe world, especially here in the USA, and we are often at the mercy of the whims of goyishe leaders, who are influenced by what their constituency wants. If we offend that constituency ONCE, that is what they remember – not the countless chassadim that the Jewish community does for the non-Jewish world. (Think about the Civil Rights Movement and how blacks regard Jews today).

    Jew are at the forefront of virtually every major medical and scientific breakthrough. We are second to none in tzedaka. But let ONE BErnie Madoff get through, and it is all for nothing. All they can think bout is the Jew. Why do you think the story of Jonathan Pollard or Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin is so tragic? Had neither of them been Jews (and had Rubashkin not been FRUM), the stories would have ended differently, of that I have no doubt. I still have hopes that HAshem will be Meracheim on them.

    It’s not pleasant that we have to watch our Ps and Qs with the non-Jewish world, but it is extremely naive to think otherwise.

    #696919
    Jose
    Member

    Wolf,

    It was Charlie and Oomis who felt that non-Jews deserve preference with which I strongly disagree and apparently you too disagree.

    As far as being considered an apikorus, perhaps you should consider rethinking how you present your ideas. Being considered an apikorus is no great banner to wave.

    It also reminds me of the story about this old lady in Florid who hears on the radio about someone driving against traffic in the vicinity where her husband is supposed to be. SShe calls her husband and says, Irv, be careful there is a meshuggener driving the wrong way in traffic. He answers her, what do you mean “A” meshuggener, I see hundreds of people driving the wrong way in traffic.

    At some point you have to realize that it is not may not be the hundreds who are the wrong way in traffic.

    #696920
    Jose
    Member

    Oomis,

    You response now and before explains why one should be respectful of non jews, even if one does not feel that it is a flaw in his charechter to be respectful of any one. However, it is not a reason to be more respectful of non-Jews and being more respectful of non-Jews is at least as dangerous.

    #696921
    oomis
    Participant

    I guess that because I try to be respectful of all people, Jew and non-Jew alike, the problem has never come up with me. But Jews are less likely to have the type of control that we saw in Germany. There was a story told of a Rov who every morning would see his (anti-Semitic) neighbor, when he left for shul and would greet him, “Good morning Herr Schmidt.” The neighbor barely grunted a response. nevertheless, the Yid continued to greet him warmly every morning, and this went on for some time.

    The Nazis came to power and the Rov was taken along with all the Jews of his town and brought to the camps. AS Jews were being sent to the gas chambers, he noticed his neighbor, now decked out in Nazi regalia. As always, he greeted him, “Good morning, Herr Schmidt.” The Nazi looked at him, and pointed away from the death chamber and his life was spared.

    It may be really distasteful to us as Jews, but this is not a Jewish country (despite what the media would like to think). We must be very much aware that our lives are sometimes dependent upon the non-Jews, much as it galls us, and therefore we are obligated to be concerned that we do not tip the scales even more against us.

    #696922
    mw13
    Participant

    I know this is a little late, but to aries2756 – “I was just at 2 wedding in E”Y and was absolutely shocked that there was no consideration or derech eretz and these young girls just pushed and shoved with even an excuse me or “slicha”. It was ridiculous bordering on obnoxious.”

    I used to have an Israeli classmate, and he used to do the same thing. Eventually somebody explained to me that it’s a cultural difference; in EY, pushing somebody out of the way is the american equivalent of an “excuse me”.

    #696923
    mosherose
    Member

    “How about we show proper respect for Jews AND non-Jews?”

    Did you ever hear of the lav of lo sechanaim?

    #696924
    d a
    Member

    I didn’t read all the comments on the page.

    A few weeks ago, I was by a Simcha and this guy next to me was being extremly nice to the waiters. It wasn’t very hard. Just say how good the food looks and how good he is seing. Don’t just do it once. Do it every time! Its not so hard!!!

    #696925
    haifagirl
    Participant

    I used to have an Israeli classmate, and he used to do the same thing. Eventually somebody explained to me that it’s a cultural difference; in EY, pushing somebody out of the way is the American equivalent of an “excuse me.”

    I recently heard a story about a 10-year-old Israeli boy who took a trip to England. When he came back and was asked about his trip, he said England was very nice, but the people were so rude.

    It seems he was eating and the person next to him asked him to pass the salt, which was in front of this boy. He couldn’t understand why the guy couldn’t just reach over and get it. Why did his eating have to be interrupted just to pass someone the salt?

    What we think of as rude, is sometimes just a cultural difference.

    #696926
    haifagirl
    Participant

    Here in Haifa the city has employees clean the sidewalks every day. (I hate to think what they would look like if they didn’t.) When I pass one of these men doing a job I would really hate to do, I always thank him. I wonder how many other people do?

    #696927
    tzippi
    Member

    To Mosherose: I’m hesitant to ask this because there are all sorts of people here. But right away I thought of Rav Yaakov, zt”l, who greeted the nuns, Rav Moshe, zt”l, the famous story of the schochet in a large slaughter house who was rescued from a deep freeze only because he greeted the guard coming and going….Can you tell us where common courtesy for others created b’tzelem Elokim crosses the line to lo sichonem? At the very least, if it is considered common courtesy in this culture to say thank you, shouldn’t we Yehudim get the practice we need on everyone, not just unzere mentschen?

    #696928
    Health
    Participant

    OOmis – The story is with the Bluzuver Rebbe. The name was Herr Mueller. Every morning the Rebbe would take a walk and say Gut Morgen Herr Mueller and the guy would answer Gut morgen Herr Rabiner. By the camps -this guy was the guy making the decision which line to go into. When the Rebbe saw him -he said Gut morgen Herr Muller and the goy answered Gut morgen Herr Rabiner and pointed to the good line.

    #696930
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Mosherose;

    tzippi is absolutely correct.

    We are supposed to be nice to people because that we are supposed to actually care about people.

    If you care about people, of course you will be nice to non-jews also.

    Seems to me that in your system, we are nice to Jews because it is a “mitzva”.

    This is a perversion of the purpose of the Torah, which is intended to perfect us, not to create artificial standards.

    Also, I don’t need your “mitzvos”. If you don’t care about me, I’d rather you just be nasty

    #696931
    so right
    Member

    How does the the lav of lo sechanaim work?

    #696932
    mosherose
    Member

    Not to compliment or say nice things about goyim.

    #696933

    Not to allow Arabs to park in Israel.

    More seriously, Rashi says this means one of three things.

    1. Don’t praise needlessly

    2. Don’t allow them to take land in Israel.

    3. Don’t marry them.

    Obviously a lot more has been written on the topic.

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