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I am also of the opinion that while environment definitely makes a huge impact on a child, the best form of education can sometimes be to allow the child to feel out for themselves which path to follow. I want my kids to live a certain way, but sometimes forcing a certain ideal too strongly just ends up backfiring and turning a person away from it. I would rather have my child follow a different path than my own, but respect my path and the path of others, than shove my path down the throat of the child to the point that if he/she DOES choose a different path, there will likely be a lot of familial tension, and the child will probably be less likely to be accepting of people in general, having been shown that people are rigid in their opinions and try to force their opinions on others.
Id break it off if I was you, this is a Hashkafa thing and will never change
You’ve got to be kidding. You dont think shomer negiah is an important value to keep?!? What other values do you deem unimportant? Is keeping kosher something you plan on doing? Is taharas hamishpacha an important value to you?
She is certainly correct that if you water down halacha your children will further water it down from even your already watered down version. Much like a comparison between the first Reform and the Reform today.
I think that it is important to compromise a bit. Maybe, you will decide not to have a tv in your house, but you can also watch tv shows on the internet, and most computers can have dvds put into them, so that way, you can still get all the benefits of a television (although I am against watching tv myself, I don’t want a TV in my house, or secular literature outside of what my kids are stuck reading for school. The only barriers for me between where I am and where i want to be is internet usage, lack of background, and fact that I don’t like it when people tell me what to do). But as a baal teshuva, I can assure you that there are always ways to compromise with people without being so sheltered or feeling like your children do not know about the outside world.
It seems like the girl you are going out with is really growth oriented, and she probably wants to marry someone who is also really growth oriented as well. I think that the bottom line is that as long as you are willing to grow hashkafically along with her, that you both will be happy. It was very hard for me to stop watching tv as well, and stop reading teen vogue, and other magazines like that, so I started limiting the tv shows I was watching one by one, and I realized that I felt so much better about myself and felt holier each time I eliminated a tv show.
Shomer negiah only makes a difference before marriage? That’s news to me!
Shomer negiah only makes a difference before marriage? That’s news to me!
His point is that after his marriage, he can touch his wife (barring niddah issues, of course)
The Wolf
I will come off sounding harsh, though I think its worth it. Raising a kid to be open-minded and worldly, does not have to be done by bringing the kid to a burlesque house. We do not expose our kids to drugs, immorality and things that we believe are bad, just for the sake of having open minded kids. I am comparing these examples to TV not because I believe that TV is just as bad. Rather, your post makes it sound that YOU believe that TV is inherently bad for kids (except for the open-mindedness of it).
Either way, I believe that there are many ways to open a kids mind, and the first way starts with the parents being open minded.
she probably wants to marry someone who is also really growth oriented as well.
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The OP is growing in a different direction – azoy vi a tzvibel, mit der kop in der erd. Break it off now, and find someone who is more flexible. She will eventually break it off later.
as a single girl (who’s actively involved in kiruv with girls who are constantly in relationships) I see shomer as a basic requirement to a long lasting relationship–leading to marriage….I heard something very powerful when I was 15 and I use it whenever girls ask me questions about their personal relationships(which mostly are non-shomer)it goes as follows the guy you’ll marry is going to give you a completely whole ring, when you’re dating and get close to the guy but not commited to…you loose chips of that diamond b/c your giving of yourself to somoeone who’s not yours/commited/married to you… Shomer is making sure your whole and not fragmented along with every guy you date…
I didn’t see this line when I first responded. I’ll give the matter some thought.
The Wolf
I think if you like her, and are willing to do what she wants in practice then you should go for it. Your kids will end up getting most of their hashkafas from their yeshivahs and rabbeim anyway. Also, people change; after you have kids you may feel differently. Definitely ask a rav, or a frum relationship counselor before making a commitment.
I agree with Uneeq.
Being shomer negiah is a very important halakha. I am not Haredi, but my Judaism is defined by halakha, and the moment you pick and choose which halakhot you wish to keep and not keep, you’ve effectively separated yourself from the Torah and might as well be Reform- the Reform Movement believes that the individual and the individual’s definition of truth are the supreme authority, not the objective Torah. Relativism may be a popular 20th century value, but it is the antithesis of Judaism.
This girl sounds more frum than you. She needs another baal teshuva, and I will explain why.
People need to be with people who were raised similarly. She cannot relate to your formative experiences in life and you cannot relate to hers. You were raised with a different value system than her, and her ideas of family are also different than yours. Her family will think you’re a frummy, and that you’re weird and your family will never fully accept her. They’ll never view her as equal and will be skeptical and judgmental.
Don’t subject yourself to a lifetime of heartache and machlokes. People not raised religious have a tendency towards zealotry and even fanaticism when they become religious because they lack a social lens and an experiential lens through which Judaism is lived, beyond the printed page. This seems to be the case here.
You sound like you need a girl who was raised frum and maybe became more relaxed over time, since such a lukewarm girl can relate to your hashkafa of seeing halakhot you don’t like as irrelevant.
The BT girl should seek another BT who is frum and shtark, a guy who maybe went to Aish or Ohr Somayach and who consciously made a choice to be a halakhic Jew and doesn’t go with the flow because that is how he was raised.
How u want ur home to look, and how u want to raise ur kids is a biggie. U need to at least agree to disagree and have someone u will both allow to step in and guide u. You need to both be very commited to working on it otherwise u r setting urself up for alot of disagreements and issues that will arise. But i believe any marriage can thrive as long as there is mutual respect and willingness to make it work.
the moment you pick and choose which halakhot you wish to keep and not keep, you’ve effectively separated yourself from the Torah
Well said.
rebdoniel- “People need to be with people who were raised similarly.” true for some but not all, as seen from many happy, successful, strong marriages between people of very different upbringings. as long as they are looking to go the same way, and are open-minded to their spouse, it can work.
Frummy
Mainstream Orthodox people are careful with things that involve a chiyuv Kareis and that are issurei deoraysoh. Lo sikravu legalos ervah is an issur deoraysoh.
Btw with all due respect I don’t think you are ready for marriage. You think marriage is all about your physical pleasures. You don’t realize that for a large portion of the month you can’t even touch your wife casually. You can’t even pass her things. You have to put it down and then she can pick it up. Learn the halachos of taharas hamishpacha. You will see that much self control is required.
On another note you should realize everyone’s needs are different. Your wife may not be as needy as you in this department. So you really should cool yourself down because you may be in for a lot of disappointment.
Read Rav Shalom Arushs book The Garden of Peace. It will clarify a lot about marriage for you. You owe it to yourself to be prepared for marriage before getting married or else you will be hit by many unpleasant surprises. Don’t become another statistic.
You are not Shomer negiah… Tht is major for a girl tht u describe over here. If she’s not having major doubts what’s wrong with her?????!! . Break it off quickly Before u get too emotionally involved and run for ur life!
The reductionist approach to Orthodoxy is my biggest beef against the Modern Orthodox. I like the MO approach to viewing any issues intellectually, but in practice, they often lack yirat shamayim and a serious approach to engaging halakha.
There is no way you can justify not thinking negiah is serious. If you reduce Judaism to the “big three” (shabbat, niddah, kashrut), this is problematic. Granted, you need to separate minhag and chumra from halakha. But I would find it incredibly hypocritical of you if you told me that you held by Rabbenu Tam zman and only used halav yisrael while you felt it was okay to be in yichud with or hold the hand of a girl you’re not married to.
If you approach Judaism in a pick and choose capacity, then sadly, sociologically, you will probably feel at home in a place like Riverdale or the Upper West Side.
I’ not judging you, but I love you and care about you. You’re another Yid, and you’re wrong and I am concerned for you.
I was under the impression she was raised non-Orthodox. Sounds to me like she was raised in a typical MO-type home and became more frum later on.
I agree with and commend your approach to the outside world. But think seriously about your halakhic priorities. I am usually very much interested in learning how different poskim approach issues in ways that seem counter-intuitive to us (such as R’ Yosef Messas on women’s haircovering, going to a non shomer shabbat butcher, etc.) But certain things you just can’t make a limud zechut for.
I wish you all the best and hatzlacha rabba. Please check out Frumster and SYAS if you haven’t already. They’re great resources.
Fitt,
You must be in a lot of pain. I feel for you. Hashem should give you strength. May you find the right one in a timely manner. Hatzlocha!
frummy in my tummy- i just want to make sure that you did not base your decision about her based on what these people have said. They did say important things, but the fact is that it’s your choice and there is such a thing as two people getting married who started off on different levels but are willing to grow together.
i’m sorry it did not work out. 🙁
🙁 Hope you find the right one soon!
I think before he thinks about getting married, he should sort out his hashkafos first.
Rd,
You might be right, but now is a time for chizuk, not mussar.
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