Another Perspective

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    Sister Bear

    Guys might not like this but just think about it.

    All the time people are saying that all these bad things that happen to us Frum Jews is because of women who aren’t tznius. I’m NOT here to say if that’s true or not, I have no idea and I think you also don’t. And us women, always get blamed.

    But have you thought about it this way? (Now guys might not agree but just take it to heart)…oh and this isn’t my idea or anything, I’ve spoken with other people.

    So when a secular woman dresses provocatively she is dressing that way to get mens attention, BUT when a frum married woman is dressing provocatively (for the most part) she is dressing that way to get HER husband’s attention.

    I’m not excusing dressing untznuisly and I’m not saying what they’re doing is right all I’m saying is that maybe instead of just being like yeah women aren’t tznius, see why women wouldn’t be tznius and try to fix the problem.

    If a woman knows that she’s the only one woman who her husband looks at then she has no need to dress provocatively, but if she feels that his eyes are wandering then she wants them back and will do whatever it takes.

    Story: someone reliable told me this story that it happened to her mother’s friend. So her friend started being all into shopping and the like and it was very unusual so she asked her what was going on and she said now she has to compete with every single celebrity. Just an example.


    That’s absolutely no excuse. It is offensive that even be used as a defense.


    I believe you Sister Bear! Re: this ladies competition with celebrities.

    I was just watching a news clip on line from Fox TV. And the lady news cast reporting was dressed in a way that I often see MO ladies trying to emulate. Long fancy styled hair, a tight fitting dress as so to reveal her shape, and lipstick and white white teeth. More and more I am seeing this in public and in parties and in chasunas, that MO ladies are going for this look. I feel its really cheap and sad. THey actually look like women who do something for money, which I cannot write the name of the profession here because it is not fitting, since its so cheap and low. Get it?

    starts with the letter P.


    Sister Bear

    Any woman who dresses provocatively on the street is NOT doing it for her “husband” because her husband is at work! Not only that, but most women are no longer in their provocative clothing by the time the husband comes home. They are at home wearing something comfortable and probably not that attractive looking.

    Who are you fooling?


    SB – While your statement might be true, it isn’t the reason most of the time. Most of the time women dress the way they do because of peer pressure.


    how is that true…you assume taht every woman who claims to be frum isnt looking to attract some other man? not they they all are…but thats a broad statement to make…so no secular women would dress provocatively to attract only her husband? get outta here…


    “All the time people are saying that all these bad things that happen to us Frum Jews is because of women who aren’t tznius.”

    Who can know the cheshbonos of hashem.


    They are at home wearing something comfortable and probably not that attractive looking.”

    Who says we can’t be comfortable AND attractive?????


    This is a conversation for couples to have with each other, not with other people. It is certainly not the place of other people to discuss individual couples.


    Oomis, who are you trying to fool? You know that the clothing worn in the street is not what is worn at home.

    Having said that, I didn’t notice anyone saying that all these things are happening because of the way our women are dressing.


    The most offensive part of this thread was the flippant, repeated use of the term, and the disparaging of “MO women”.


    We already had this discussion. NO COMMENT


    Sadly, we’re no longer living in a generation of the bais hamikdosh where b’nei YISRAEL committed one primary avairah (and even then, on their madreigah, they succumbed to the avairos of the times – avodah zara etc.) We all know there are so many issues going on, and they probably differ from community to community, continent to continent. Lack of tznius is a big problem, and no, it is not limited to just the MO community. I see super long shaitels on bais yaakov educated girls as well, sequined tops, super straight skirts, and the list goes on. Women dress this way for their own self esteem. Women want to be fashionable, and try to do so within the confines of halachah (shaitel, skirts,etc). We must recognize the efforts they do make, even if we feel it’s in the wrong direction. I believe it is a combined sense of responsibility. Women dress to impress/please (if not our husbands, than our friends, peers, the public at large -who wants to be looked at like they’re ugly, just because they’re nor fashionable. If it can be done within the confines of halacha, let them. If our husbands would ooh and ahh about a super short shaitel, you might see more women buying them.

    Sister Bear

    Peacemaker – I’m not using it as an excuse, I didn’t say it was right of them to do it, I’m just giving a reason why some women might feel the need to dress this way.

    WIY – you sure about that, cuz from a girl’s perspective why would they. Ya they might change into flats…and a lot of times you can get really comfortable provocative clothes (not that I’m talking from experience or anything :))

    Health – that’s true a lot of the time, but I don’t think it plays such a large role. And I feel that a woman would be stronger if she didn’t have shalom bayis issues.

    bombmaniac – obviously I’m speaking in generalizations. Of course it’s not everyone. I thought that would be a given. Sorry!

    HaLevi – what are you talking about? I know many women who don’t change when they get home, except maybe to change their shoes or something. Why would they?

    Yatzmich – I’m not married although I have spoken to older, wiser and married people about this. (I never brought it up, becuase I wouldn’t think that but it does make sense) I’m not trying to be a troll or anything of the sort. I just want to provide a reason for why we might have such a tznius problem. Don’t want to incite anyone’s anger or anything.


    If you are to believe the stickers on the bus stops (in EY) “livgadim tzmudim tzarot nitzmadim” and “Bnot tznuot mon’ot asonot”

    My take is that when we hold the BY and other girls to one standard, and everyone else to no standard, the tnius train has jumped the tracks and crashed. An indicator of such is the phenomena of ychidos segula going to the opposite extreme, long skirt, jacket, and poncho cloak, and I have also seen some getup approximating a burqua. (in Yerushalayim)


    Sister Bear

    I am not a girl so I can’t say I fully understand female thinking, but I do have common sense, and common sense tells me that most women, who do not work with their husbands and in many cases the husband leaves early to work and comes home late so he rarely sees his wife all dressed up so she’s not doing it for him. Maybe she does it for herself because it makes her feel good when she looks to kill, but its not for him.


    SB -“but I don’t think it plays such a large role. And I feel that a woman would be stronger if she didn’t have shalom bayis issues.”

    It almost plays the role in its entirety. Almost never does this have to do with Shalom Bayis. Women have peer pressure no matter how good a marriage they have. You’re right though -they should be stronger and not cave in to the pressure.

    It sounds like you’re completing a vicious circle. A lot of men when a tragedy occurs blame the women because they aren’t so Tzinius. Really they should look inward, instead of blaming. You’re doing the same thing by saying the women don’t dress Tzinus because of the men. They should look inward instead of blaming!


    I noticed that many participants in this discussion, and many people in general, use “tznius” as an adjective. That is an incorrect use of the word. “Tznius” means “modesty.” To say “So many women walk around not tznius,” would be like saying, “So many women walk around not modesty.” That doesn’t make sense.

    I believe the word that you intend to use is “tzenu’ah,” which means modest.

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