July 29, 2011 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #598311charliehallParticipant
In light of the controversy between Agudath Israel and the Rabbinical Council of America regarding when one should report suspected child abuse, a prominent posek in Eretz Yisrael has restated his psak. Rabbi Shlomo Aviner writes in part:
‘When children are battered, whether sexually or “just” physically, anyone who knows about it has to report it to the authorities.’
The entire tshuvah is online here: http://www.ravaviner.com/2011/07/ones-duty-to-immediately-report-child.html
Rav Aviner is a prominent Dati Leumi posek in Eretz Yisrael. He is Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivat Ateret Yerushalayim and Chief Rabbi of Beit El. He is NOT known as modern orthodox; for example he forbids women from wearing pants (even pajamas) or learning gemara.July 29, 2011 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #816302shlishiMember
Rabbi Aviner is a Zionist Rabbi, effectively an Israeli affiliated (in spirit) with the RCA. So there is nothing new here.July 29, 2011 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #816303☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
In what way is his approach different than that of A.I.?
They both seem to follow the psak of Rav Elyashiv Shlit”a; if anything, Rav Aviner could be seen as being more on the side of restraint from reporting than R’ Elyashiv. R’ Elyashiv paskens to report with “raglayim l’davar”, which means a reasonable suspicion, and does not require 100% knowledge. R’ Aviner only talks about a case of certainty.July 29, 2011 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #816304Derech HaMelechMember
Rav Aviner is a prominent Dati Leumi posek in Eretz Yisrael… He is NOT known as modern orthodox; for example he forbids women from wearing pants (even pajamas) or learning gemara
Could you clarify the difference between Dati Leumi and Modern Orthodox? For example, you mention that he forbids women from wearing pants. Is this in contrast to Rabbi Shachter, who is modern orthodox?July 31, 2011 2:26 am at 2:26 am #816305ItcheSrulikMember
DH: Dati leumi refers to a practicing Jew who is also a zionist in the sense of supporting the current state of Israel. They range in practice from moder-orthodox to charedi. As for wearing pants, no Rav Schachter does not permit them.July 31, 2011 2:33 am at 2:33 am #816306mustangriderMember
I’m not quite understanding this discussion. is there anyone out there who believes in NOT reporting abuse when he/she is absolutely sure of whats going on?July 31, 2011 2:44 am at 2:44 am #816307EnglishmanMember
It seems that the argument is over when one is not absolutely sure of the situation.July 31, 2011 3:05 am at 3:05 am #816308☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
It seems that the argument is over when one is not absolutely sure of the situation.
Who says you need 100% certainty, rather than “raglayim l’davar”?July 31, 2011 3:18 am at 3:18 am #816309EnglishmanMember
How would you define raglayim ladavar?July 31, 2011 3:19 am at 3:19 am #816310mustangriderMember
DaasYochid, i agree with u.
if there is enouph going on to make u suspicious then i think the matter must be investigated. this is the wellbeing of a child we r talking about! though of course one should turn to Da’at Torah before taking a specific course of action.October 10, 2011 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #816311oyveykidsthesedaysMember
“Could you clarify the difference between Dati Leumi and Modern Orthodox? For example, you mention that he forbids women from wearing pants. Is this in contrast to Rabbi Shachter, who is modern orthodox?”
Most Modern Orthodox Jews are Dati Leumi, but not all Dati Leumi are Modern Orthodox. Religious Zionists can range anywhere from very Modern to very Chareidi.
Rav Schachter doesn’t permit women to wear pants. He says that if Beis Din were around nowadays, the would give a woman who wears pants malkus.October 11, 2011 1:13 am at 1:13 am #816312bein_hasdorimParticipant
mustangrider; I would adjust your statement to
“if there is enouph going on to make “US” suspicious.
That is what Raglayim L’davar means. It is not up to any one person
to decide on their own that they saw a little scratch on a child
to scream “Help!” It means that if most normal people would conclude
suspicious behavior being evident, the likelihood being realistic backed circumstances.October 11, 2011 1:31 am at 1:31 am #816313happiestMember
I found out recently that I had a student who was abused by her father. This happened like 3 years ago while her parents were getting divorced. She was a little on the quiet side, I think a little anti- social almost but we thought it was because of the home situation. When I found out about it now I was (and am still) devastated. I wish I had known and could have done something about it!! She is currently not living with her father but is also not in therapy for it and her mother does know that it happened.
I wonder if I have an obligation to tell the school or since it’s over and done with, just leave it be. I guess I should ask a rav this question. I mean is a rav the right person to ask a question like this to? If not, who do I ask?
Thanks:)October 11, 2011 1:41 am at 1:41 am #816314bein_hasdorimParticipant
I meant enough! not enouph! I cut and pasted your typo mustang.
we are not the same person!October 11, 2011 1:41 am at 1:41 am #816315yitayningwutParticipant
A rav is certainly the right person to ask about this, and I encourage you to do so.October 11, 2011 3:42 am at 3:42 am #816316MiddlePathParticipant
happiest, wow, what a sad story! You said that her mother knows about it, but the school does not. It seems that the mother doesn’t want the school to know, or she would have informed them. Whether that is right or wrong should be evaluated. But yes, definitely ask someone what to do in this situation! A rav would be a good place to start.October 11, 2011 3:53 am at 3:53 am #816317gregaaronMember
Just so you know, in New York (as well as many other states) teachers are mandated reporters, meaning they have a legal obligation to report child abuse.
HOWEVER (bold, italic, underlined): If Halacha conflicts with that, there is no question that someone in such a situation needs to follow the Halacha (Da’as Torah) over the law. I just wanted to make you aware of the fact.
Personally, my own Da’as BaalBatim (worth diddly squat) is that if the father is not involved with your student or any other kids, there is probably no Halachic basis for saying something.
Hatzlacha, and even if your student doesn’t realize all that you have done/are doing for her, there is certainly Someone upstairs who does!October 11, 2011 4:30 am at 4:30 am #816318am yisrael chaiParticipant
May Hashem bentch you for taking care of His child
“since it’s over and done with, just leave it be.”
The ramifications of abuse are RARELY ever over and done with without help. It can fester into sleep issues, trust issues, behavioral issues, and down the road PTSD, depression and dating issues, to name just a few.
The sooner it’s dealt with, the better.
Call R Goldwasser for hadracha
(718) 339-4582October 11, 2011 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #816319happiestMember
Starting from the top up…
am yisrael- I didn’t mean it’s over and done with that there would be no ramifications (or are no ramifications). I meant that as far as we know, the abuse is not happening anymore, b”H. But thank you for Rabbi Goldwassers #. I think I will call him and speak to him about it.
greg- I know I am a mandated reporter but does this apply to something that happened 3 years ago? Like do I have to report it now even though it happened three years ago?
Thanks middle- ya, I don’t nec agree with the mother but I am not her so who am I to judge I guess. I’m assuming she knows (or thinks she knows) what she’s doing. But yes, I am going to call Rabbi Goldwasser and ask him for some hadracha.
yit- I will do just that.
Thank you everyone for all your input!
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