- This topic has 23 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
In a recent thread, @charliehall claimed that Trump is actually anti-semitic.
To prove his claim he cited Trump’s remarks in which he had used Israeli and Jews interchangeably.I have wondered about this definition of anti-semitism not only with Trump, but with Ilhan Omar as well, for several reasons, but the main one is that being anti-Israel is considered by many – including me – to be a form of anti-semitism as well.
1. Is confusing Jews with Israeli – however wrong or misguided that may be – anti-semitism?
2. If yes, do the two definitions stated above contradict each other?
MadeAliyah,
Yosher Koach for opening this thread because this is a topic that deserves discussion. It is also a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
Where does legitimate criticism of the Israel government end and Antisemitism begin ?
Where does support for the Palestinians end and Antisemitism begin ?The gold standard for the definition of Antisemitism by the IHRA’s Committee on Antisemitism and Holocaust Denial has made the issue confusing by defining certain criticism of Israel/Israeli’s as Antisemitism.
Here are 6 of their definitions and you can see where the lines between The Jewish people, Israel and Antisemitism are blurred.
* Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
* Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
* Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
* Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
* Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
* Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of IsraelPS: Here are the first 5 definitions which refer mainly to the Jewish people.
* Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
* Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
* Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
* Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
* Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.It’s a good question and I don’t think there’s a simple answer to it.
According what organizations and activists like the ADL have considered anti-Semitism, we would have to include many frum Jews under that umbrella.
According to what more extreme activists have considered anti-Semitism, Hitler yemach shemo was only criticizing the Zionist movement.
I think the answer has to be looked at on a case by case basis.
To paraphase Judge Potter Stewart in Jacobellis V Ohio,
I know it when I see itThe problem is the dual loyalty canard that Trump and Omar spouted. It has also been used to target Catholics.
Jews who try to sabotage the State of Israel are rashaim no matter what they do in other areas of observance.
President Donald Trump has been both the most pro-Jewish president in American history as well as (independently from the former) by far the most pro-Israel president ever.
Anti-Semitism and philo-Semitism can be two sides of the same coin. For example, saying that Jews are good lawyers can be positive if one respects legal acumen. Similarly, if someone admires the ability to make money saying that about us is positive. I personally would very much like to know which bank is mine.
@jackk
“Where does legitimate criticism of the Israel government end and Antisemitism begin ?”
legitimate criticism of the Israel government is the same mantra was someone saying I cant be an anti semite some of my friends are JewishMA, CS,
For you to trash Bibi’s covid response is not antisemitism but for Ilhan to do it would be ? Please explain because this is the crux of the dilemma.
Ilhan can always find other Jews and Israeli’s who agree with her when she criticizes Israel.“Ilhan can always find other Jews and Israeli’s who agree with her when she criticizes Israel.”
Yup that is nothing new, they were called Kapos in the recent pastUsually the motivations behind the statements made can be clearly diciphered by knowing who is making the statement or the context. if not, a bit of probing and pointed questions can reveal what their intentions really are.
MA,
She is a US Representative and until Israel completely disconnects itself from the USA , she has a voice and and opinion in how the USA deals with Israel.
Thinking Cap, you are basically saying what CS said and that is you can be the ultimate judge on what is antisemitism. So let us extrapolate on that point. Therefore, Blacks are the judges of who are racists and white supremacists. (By the way – you are included.)
Is that fair and reasonable?“until Israel completely disconnects itself from the USA , she has a voice and and opinion in how the USA deals with Israel.” BH there are 430 other normal congresspeople and 5 haters.
“Therefore, Blacks are the judges of who are racists and white supremacists. (By the way – you are included.)
Is that fair and reasonable?” please pose that question to BLM and NAACP because ipso facto that is the case“she has a voice and and opinion in how the USA deals with Israel.”
And I have a voice and will continue to bash her until she changes her voice and opinion.
MA,
Since you live in the tiny Jewish state what do you care what she says in Washington DC?
But the answer to that question is off topic and so is the focus on Ilhan. I couldn’t care less about what she says.
A lot of Jews have negative views of Israel – including whole groups of Jews who are Tzadikim and Yiray Hashem. Are they antisemites?
The topic is the discussion of the blurred lines between antisemitism and criticism of the state of israel.
If a US Congressmen would tweet “I criticize Netanyahu for trying to use the Emiratis in his election campaign” are they guilty of antisemitism?CS ,
Ipso fact that is the case since you are using the same rules to call people antisemites.
In your own definition, you have joined the white supremacist’s racism club.
It is a bad definition if I don’t believe in white supremacy.Charlie,
Bash her all you want. She learned her lesson temporarily from being bashed.@Jackk, In your own definition, you have joined the white supremacist’s racism club.
It is a bad definition if I don’t believe in white supremacy.
Call me whatever you want, I heard enough self hate from you to last a lifetime
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.