Anti-Zionism as Anti-Semitism: Legal Implications under U.S. Law

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  • #1758362

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    At today’s White House-Justice Department Conference on anti-semitism, a recurring theme is the growing invocation of anti-Zionism as a way of legitimizing what would otherwise be called out for what it is: blatant anti-semitism. Whether on college campuses (BDS movement) or at the U.N. anti-Semitic tropes are justified in terms of opposition to Israeli policy. At today’s conference, Alyza Lewin a great lawyer herself and the daughter of legendary Supreme Court litigator Nat Lewin, documented this trend and called for more aggressive legal actions under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act and other federal laws against BDS and other anti-Semitic movements. Others on these panels noted the contradictions created by “anti-zionism” rhetoric within the orthodox jewish community itself as legitimizing anti-Semitism cloaked as anti-Zionism. She made a powerful argument to confront anti-Zionist rhetoric from BOTH non-Jews and from with the Jewish Community itself, whether from the NK, other so-called “frum” organizations or left-wing Jews seeking to de-legitimize EY.

    #1758444

    Joseph
    Participant

    Thank you President Donald Trump for strongly condemning antisemitism and having your administration work tirelessly in combating it, more so than any previous administration in United States history.

    Jewish opposition to the State of Israel is pro-Judaism and pro-Torah.

    #1758574

    Phil
    Participant

    Thank you President Donald Trump for strongly condemning antisemitism and having your administration work tirelessly in combating it, more so than any previous administration in United States history.

    Thank you also for not being duped by the haters who disguise their vile antisemitism as opposition to the State of Israel. Especially those dressed like charedim who join our enemies in Gaza and London for Shabbos and in Tehran for Holocaust Denial conferences. Thank you for recognizing that they too are anti-Semites!

    #1758484

    Phil
    Participant

    “Jewish opposition to the State of Israel is pro-Judaism and pro-Torah”

    Joseph,

    Especially when done in Gaza on Shabbos and in Tehran as part of a Holocaust Denial conference, by people who dress as and claim to be Charedim. That’s what happens when the only “mitzvah” you care about is hating other Jews.

    #1758528

    Milhouse
    Participant

    We should be clear that neither anti-zionism nor antisemitism is or can be illegal. Nor can anti-zionist or antisemitic speech. BDS has every right to advocate boycotting Israeli businesses, just as people have the right to advocate boycotting Black businesses or Jewish businesses. But it is not legal for a business to engage in such a boycott. BDS supporters often deliberately fudge this point, claiming that anti-BDS legislation suppresses their freedom of speech. It doesn’t. It only restricts their actions, in the same way that all civil rights laws restrict people’s actions.

    #1758771

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Milhouse makes an excellent point on secondary boycotts which have long been considered per se illegal under certain circumstances. You can advocate boycotting EY, but the first time you deny a commercial transaction on that basis, you expose yourself to legal jeopardy depending on the circumstances. The point that some have made is that some rabid anti-semites have pointed to the comments from frum and Chareidi elements of the tzibur “opposing” EY as justification for their anti-Israel rants w/o distinguishing the very complex and nuanced relationship between the anti-Zionist elements of the Chareidi parties who oppose the government while simultaneously supporting Israeli national security efforts.

    #1758868

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Anti-zionism isn’t exactly the same thing as antisemitism, but it is almost always an expression of antisemitism. I have thought hard about this, and I can think of only three non-antisemitic grounds on which one can oppose zionism. Anyone who is anti-zionist on any grounds except these is an antisemite. The problem is that all three are even stronger grounds for opposing the “Palestinian” cause. I cannot think of any way at all to oppose zionism and support the “Palestinians” without being an antisemite.

    The three non-antisemitic grounds I have identified for opposing zionism are:

    1. Anarchism. If you oppose the existence of all states, then of course you will oppose the existence of Israel or of a hypothetical “Palestine”.

    2. Pacifism. If you believe violence is always wrong, even in self-defense, then you will oppose the IDF’s existence and everything it does to defend the Jews, just as you will oppose the “Palestinian” efforts to destroy Israel.

    3. Torah. If you believe that G-d send the Jews into exile and they must remain there until He frees them, then zionism is like a prison breakout. A prisoner does not lose title to his home, it still belongs to him and nobody else has the right to live there without his permission, but he has no right to go there. He can have a lawyer evict squatters, but he must remain in prison. Thus if you believe this you will oppose zionism, but you will oppose even more strongly any attempt to steal the Jewish land while its owners are away.

    #1758900

    Milhouse
    Participant

    I have heard that the Satmar Rov zt”l said a Jew is not allowed to be a zionist, but a nochri is not allowed not to be one.

    #1758980

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    The Donald asked to borrow my login his words follow:

    “Thank you loyal Joseph for your kind thanks, I sit here up at night between tweets, such great tweets everybody thinks they are the greatest, constantly scanning YWN coffee room peopel say what a great coffee room it is the best beelieve me, looking for acknowledgment, and it is sad that most losers and haters don’t thank me here. covfefe”

    #1759090

    user176
    Participant

    So this always confused me. Any time bds speaks against Israel the first response is always that they are anti Semitic. Rarely does anyone actually say why what was said is incorrect. I would like to see a list of BDS claims and why they are wrong.

    Also, what gh mentioned confuses me. I see the far left and right separating anti Zionism from anti semitism. Aren’t the anti Zionist Jews just fuel to the fire of BDS? Doesn’t that show that anti Zionism isn’t anti semitism?

    #1759427

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Wow. There’s so much confusion about this topic.

    First, nobody proposes boycotting “E”Y”; they propose boycott the Zionist State of Israel. The two (E”Y and, liHavdil, the Zionist State of Israel) are diametrically opposed, not CH”V the same and not complementary.

    So before you can even attempt to have an educated opinion on this topic, you have to be able to separate the holy land from the very unholy Zionist invasion and state the Zionists made there in E”Y.

    Jewish Anti-Zionism is, as Joseph wrote, both de facto and de jure, both Pro-Torah and Pro-Judaism.

    Moreover, even according to the Satmar Rav (the story to which he refers, as implied here, is a myth), a Gentile’s anti-Zionism does not at all mean that the Gentile is anti-Jewish. He could very well be more pro-Jewish than might be his pro-Zionist neighbor Gentile.

    Anyone can see how true this is, if they have even a small understanding of the fraud, shmad and identity-theft of the Jewish people that is Zionism. In fact, if a Gentile understood how anti-Jewish, to the core, is Zionism, it would be ANTI-Jewish of them if they did NOT oppose Zionism. In other words, it is pro-Jewish to oppose Zionism.

    According to some, Anti-Semitism is, in fact, one of the reasons the UN allowed the creation of the Zionist State.

    Anti-Zionism is not NK, even though NK is anti-Zionist. NK’s methods, etc. may not be correct, but they are not at all the definition of anti-Zionism. They are simply a vocal minority that does what they feel needs to be done to draw attention to the fact that Zionism is anti-Jewish.

    Anti-Zionism, meaning a part of being pro-Jewish, is simply recognizing at least some of the myriad evils that the Zionists have done and continue to do R”L L”A against our own Jewish people, and to recognize that, as Rav Saadiah Gaon wrote, Hashem made us a nation at Har Sinai based on the Torah, not a common land, etc.

    E”Y serves as a holy land where individuals (not en masse) can grow spiritually, even in galus, though the Zionists have made even that very challenging in many ways, including attempting to shmad Klal Yisrael with their mandatory draft (of both men and women..like NK, as in North Korea) into their redefinition of Judaism/Zionist indoctrination engine known as the IDF.

    When we merit it soon, BE”H, then E”Y will, of course, be the place where we will merit the building of the third Bais haMikdash after beas goel tzedek BB”A.

    #1760199

    manitou
    Participant

    HaKatan
    Wow you are confused and brainwashed by Satmar.

    #1760227

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Ubiquitin,

    That’s so funny because Obama asked to use my account!

    I love the Jewish people! That’s why I disrespected Netanyahoo, love bill ayers, and Louis Farrakhan, and gave billions to Iran just so they can have nukes in 10 years! But trust me I am the closest goy to a Jew possible!

    Remember whatever happened in the Arab spring was Bush’s fault!

    #1760264

    HaKatan
    Participant

    manitou:
    Rather than address any of my points, you chose the “Satmar” attack.
    I suppose that’s because the only fact you could contribute to the discussion is that you don’t like the facts I’ve written. Sorry about that.

    #1760274

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I’m sure the anti-semites throughout the world will take the time to fully understand the Satmar Rebbe’s shitah on opposing the tziyonists and challenging the legitimacy of the Israeli government while still living in EY and enjoying the protections and security provided by that same government. Instead, as noted in yesterday’s white house conference on anti-semitism, the right and left wing zealots cite the “anti-Israel positions of the Jews themselves” as providing liegitmacy to their virulent anti-semitic tropes. As noted by Reb Yosef, its only ok for yidden to be anti-israel but not for the goyim.

    #1760285

    akuperma
    Participant

    Racism is legal, but discrimination on the basis of ethnicity, race or religion is illegal. Discrimination based on political views is not merely legal, but is a constitutional right. We can expect that under the Democrats should they come to power, anti-semitism will be considered political and protected, but criticizing the Democrats (being the party of color) will be defined as racially discriminatory and be prosecuted. If Trump manages to lose in 2020, we non-assimilated Jews will be in big trouble.

    #1760318

    user176
    Participant

    Hakatan

    When you say anti Zionism is pro Jewish what type of Zionism are you talking about? What do you say about a Torah observant Zionist is that different? The religious Jews that support the idf and even join it. Are they anti jewish?

    #1760349

    Avi K
    Participant

    Dor, I do not believe that he said that. Is it OK for a Jew to be antisemitic?

    #1760351

    Milhouse
    Participant

    First, nobody proposes boycotting “E”Y”; they propose boycott the Zionist State of Israel.

    They are exactly the same thing. The state of Israel is located in Eretz Yisroel. And the boycott is of any Jew living there.

    As I wrote before, there is no such thing as an anti-zionist who is not an antisemite, unless his opposition is based on one of the three grounds I listed. And all three grounds make it impossible to support the “Palestinian” cause either. So anyone who supports a “State of Palestine” but opposes the State of Israel is an antisemite. It should surprise nobody that there exist antisemites born to Jewish mothers, with Jewish neshomos, just as there exist Jews who are murderers and all kinds of other terrible things.

    #1760433

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    While Milhouse’s perspective (aka 3 legitimate grounds to be anti-Zionist) may have some merit for frum yidden who follow a certain shita regarding establishment of the medina prior to z’man moishiach, you are being naïve’ if you think the real haters and anti-Semites will make the distinctions and not exploit the words and actions of large segments of the Chareidi tzibur to justify their own REAL anti-Semitism cloaked in the false naarative of anti-Zionism.

    #1760430

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    CA

    Thats nice of you, thanks for the message

    Can you pass on a message to Dear Barack

    We know you love us! thank you so much for your support during your presidency. Thank you for saving the lives of who knows how many Israeli citizens by pushing for Iron dome funding. Each one is like an entire world. I still remember shivering with fear as Netanyahu told the world Iran was “months away from nuclear weapons” Yet here we are years later still safe thanks to your hard work and efforts !
    Ashreicha baolam hazeh vetov loch leolam habah

    #1760486

    Milhouse
    Participant

    GHT, it’s easy to distinguish someone (Jew or nochri) who opposes zionism because of the Torah from one who does so out of antisemitism. Someone who is against the establishment of Israel only because we belong in golus must also be against the existence of any non-Jewish residents in Eretz Yisroel. A nochri has no right whatsoever to live in Eretz Yisroel unless he is a Ger Toshav, a category that has not existed for the past 2439 years. The moment an anti-zionist starts chattering about the “Palestinians” and their rights, we can know that he is an antisemite.

    #1760449

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “First, nobody proposes boycotting “E”Y”; they propose boycott the Zionist State of Israel.”
    Really? You think AOC and Ilan Omer would be willing to buy products with a badatz hechsher? Jeez, I had them all wrong. I thought they were just anti-semites.

    #1760554

    smerel
    Participant

    If a non-Jew is anti-Zionist but not ALSO anti-Palestinian then they are an anti-Semite.

    Every single current complaint the anti-Israel crowd uses are things the Palestinians are or would be a lot more guilty of if they took over. They don’t even pay lip service otherwise.

    I do not believe the OBSESSION with anti-Zionism in some circles in the frum community is really motivated by Kovod Shomyim. There are a lot of worse Jewish groups and a lot more things to worry about. Fighting Zionism (with repeated reference to people and ideals that are long dead) is the wrong battle for today’s time.

    And the endless seeking of confrontation in some circles in the frum community is a big part the CAUSE of a lot of the problems the frum community in Eretz Yisroel has today.

    No anti-religious candidate shows footage of Bochurim learning in say Chevron Yeshiva in his campaigning. They do show the confrontations and protests of the anti-Zionist groups to get votes. With a lot of success.

    #1760537

    Joseph
    Participant

    Milhouse: It is factually inaccurate that the Satmar Rebbe ever said or indicated that nochrim may not be anti-Zionist.

    #1760536

    Joseph
    Participant

    Milhouse: Before Moshiach it is forbidden to advocate the expulsion of the nochrim from Eretz Yisroel in addition to it being forbidden for us to establish a state there.

    #1760593

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    For all the usual ranting by the usual suspects about the so-called “prohibitions” on establishing a state in EY before z’man moishiach, its a moot point. There has been a medinah in EY for 71 years and it will be there for eternity. The issue here is a narrow one as to whether these continual rants by the religious anti-Zionists are inadvertently feeding the growth of anti-Semitism cloaked in the guise of political anti-Zionism.

    #1760631

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Milhouse: Before Moshiach it is forbidden to advocate the expulsion of the nochrim from Eretz Yisroel

    Says who? And on what basis?

    #1760632

    Milhouse
    Participant

    The Torah says that while we are in golus the land should lie empty — as indeed most of it did until we started returning.

    #1760647

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “The issue here is a narrow one as to whether these continual rants by the religious anti-Zionists are inadvertently feeding the growth of anti-Semitism cloaked in the guise of political anti-Zionism.”
    No. Because, we still hate the Arabs more, and you don’t have to talk to us long to figure that out.

    #1760655

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Says who? And on what basis?”

    Because advocating that will put Yidden into sakanas nefoshos.

    #1760723

    Phil
    Participant

    “The Torah says that while we are in golus the land should lie empty”

    Where does the Torah say that? What the Torah does say is that since Shmita wasn’t kept during most of the first Beis Hamikdash period, the land would receive its due rest when we were sent into exile for seventy years. Regardless, the opinion of the Satmar Rav, zt”l was categorically rejected by the vast majority of Torah observant Jews and their leaders. In addition to religious Zionists, huge numbers of chassidim from Belz, Ger, Vizhnitz, Chabad, etc., Sephardim, as well as the large yeshiva communities of Mir, Chevron, Ponevezh, Brisk, etc., currently live there. Torah observant Jews cast almost one million ballots, comprising nearly 25% of the votes during the Knesset elections three months ago.

    They and their leaders are not concerned with any prohibition against living there “en masse” and they’re there to stay; even the Brisker.

    #1760733

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Again, says who, and on what basis? I’m not interested in your svoros, I want to know who says this, and what their source is.

    #1760764

    Joseph
    Participant

    Milhouse: What svoros? Is it a svara to say that if a Yid advocates overthrowing their national government (whether in Morocco, America, Iran or Germany) or advocates to lynch a local population or advocates to seize the property of the local goyin that he’s causing sakanas nefoshos?

    Then why would you doubt that if Yidden advocated expelling the goyim in Eretz Yisroel, whether in the Zionist state or whether in the parts of Eretz Yisroel in Jordan and Lebanon, that he isn’t causing sakanas nefoshos in those areas by angering those goyim into attacking Yidden?

    That’s exactly what the Zionists did pre and up through 1948. The Arabs killed and expelled the Yidden in Yerushalayim and in the Arab countries (Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, etc.)

    #1760773

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Ubiq,

    He told me to thank you for the well wishes and that he’s going to buy you a bulletproof vest (that’s not 100% effective) so you don’t have to worry about the guns and bullets that he’s going to give the gangsters and murderers that live on your block

    And yeah money goes a long way to delay eminent death to 10 years instead, while being able to fund proxies all over the world

    But he really loves you (he said something about if he had a son he would look like ubiq, then he said something about more flexibility after the elections, and then he said something about keeping doctors but I couldn’t hear him so well

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