April 29, 2011 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #596537
i’m struggling with stomach issues related to anxiety…diarrhea, nausea..the works! has anyone had this, and what did you do?April 29, 2011 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #795267truth be toldMember
Stomach issues are very common since the stomach has the most nerve endings. It’s real.
(sorry no advice). Feel better!May 1, 2011 4:08 am at 4:08 am #795268eclipseMember
Oy…nausea(etc.) is tough.
Hope the source of your anxiety disappears,or improves soon.May 1, 2011 4:12 am at 4:12 am #795269deiyezoogerMember
hot vapor rizer. works miracles for everything.May 1, 2011 4:14 am at 4:14 am #795270ilovetheholylandParticipant
been there done that. many times. whenever i get nervous it happens. usually it goes away after the source of the anxiety goes away…..May 1, 2011 4:14 am at 4:14 am #795271
I too had stomach issues while suffering from anxiety. The stomach is a very delicate part of the body where you can often feel stimulations (butterflies etc.).
I ordered the Attacking Anxiety and Depression program by Lucinda Bassett. B”H, my anxiety is gone as well as my stomach issues.
I hope you’ll get better. Please take care. Hatzlacha Rabba.May 1, 2011 4:23 am at 4:23 am #795272yankdownunderMember
2c talk to a Parent,Rav, or your Primary Care Physcian. What you are describing sounds like an Emotional Issue you are going through. It could be Health Related, so an Exam by your PCP may be in order. Do this ASAP. please do not delay. I hope you feel better.May 1, 2011 5:33 am at 5:33 am #795273
observateen, i actually have the lucinda bassett tapes..i dont know what to do. i’ve had this for so long. most of the time, it hasnt really been a problem, but whenever a stressful situation comes up-i get really anxious. I’m extremely nauseous, and just want this to be done with already.May 1, 2011 6:32 am at 6:32 am #795274
2cool, you can’t wish the dating process away. It is a process that everyone who gets married goes through. You are going to have to learn HOW to deal with it. YOU are going to have to learn what is causing your anxiety and how to handle it. For the irritable bowel episodes you can take Equilactin. You can get it over the counter. It balances the bowel between cramps and constipation or diarrhea. If your nauseous with the runs you can try pepto bismol and see if that works better. If that doesn’t help go see a Gastoenterologist.
For the anxiety you might have to see a therapist if you can’t figure out what is triggering it. Can you tell when it begins so you can do some breathing or meditation to stop it before it gets full blown? Is it only before the date, before he walks through the door or does it start when he walks through the door. Does it continue on the date? Does it get worse on the date or does it get better while the date is underway? Do you have anxiety during the phone call as well?
If you describe the episodes maybe we can give you some advice or suggestions how to handle it.May 1, 2011 6:46 am at 6:46 am #795275LemonySnicketParticipant
I too suffer from stomach issues due to nervousness, anxiety etc. Whenever I’m nervous, I feel like I need the bathroom. I think I have IBS and I’ve scheduled an appointment with a Proctologist. I suggest you do the same. I wish you the best of luck!May 1, 2011 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #795276
2cool4school: I’m truly surprised to hear that. Do you listen to them regularly (I listened to them every night)? It’s not a magic pill; it basically guides you how to think/react etc. You really have to be willing and ready to make major changes (I’m not indicating you’re not – just saying how it went with me). I listened to some CDs over and over if I felt it was necessary (#3 and #4 for example).
They also have a coaching program. You can contact them (their # is on every card), or wait ’till they contact you (they will after some time). B”H, I didn’t need the coaching, but they did offer it to me. (It’s not that expensive.)
I certainly hope you’ll see a change for the better. I’ll IY”H daven for you.
Hatzlacha Rabba, and please let us know how you feel.May 1, 2011 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #795277
Ya i also have really bad nervous/anxiety issues. (not sure what the difference is if anyone wants to fill that in for me??)
Never heard of these tapes – what are they and where do i get them? and for how much $? (are they jewish or stam?)
I believe (I’ve been told) really focusing on bitachon, ain od milvado, Hashem will NEVER EVER EVER let you down and will ALWAYS do the BEST thing for you whether you DESERVE IT OR NOT can help these situations… cuz after all is there anything to be nervous about? ur like a child being held my its mother-obviously ur mothers gona take care of all ur needs.
Also focusing on ha’olom hazeh domeh l’frozdor and everything’s just a dream world here and nothing(like embarrassment etc) really matters because this worlds not the ikur, can help. Imagine ur on a boat to an island where ur gona stay forever. if u travel in first classic cruise, u’ll be simple on the island. but if the ride is hard work and u travel in the lowest of the low – on the island ull be THE MAN. obviously u wouldn’t care if u were traveling in the sewers if u just thought about that for a second!
But obviously thats MUCH MUCH easier said than done, it requires hours of mussar b’hispaalus ‘n stuffMay 1, 2011 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #795278Ctrl Alt DelParticipant
This is so weird and goes against everything I know but a friend told me this and it works like a charm every time. I was nervous and nauseous so he told me (I kid you not) to take a cold wet compress and place it on the back of my neck and then (while sitting) lean forward and put my head between my knees. I have no explanation for this but it works like a charm (at least for me). Maybe its a mental thing I don’t know.May 1, 2011 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #795279
That technique has been around for a long time, and it’s not “a mental thing.” Blood rushes to your head when in the down position, and this helps with lightheadedness & nausea. but I’ve never heard that this works for nervousness.May 1, 2011 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #795280
Thank you Dovv (and everyone else). I feel like i’m the only one out there dealing with this, and it feels aweful. Whenever i hear anxiety being mentioned as a mental illness, it also freaks me out. I’m a nervous wreck.May 1, 2011 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #795281wanderingchanaParticipant
When I was younger and going through a very difficult time, Immodium-AD helped very much with diarrhea caused by anxiety. Generic form is cheaper and works fine.May 1, 2011 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #795282
2cool, I can’t speak about anxiety, but I can say that in generally, labeling oneself is in general very damaging.
One should never call oneself stupid, ugly, or mentally ill. Even thinking it, i.e., self-talk.
Especially since you say that this makes you “freak out.”
Can you try to focus on your wonderful qualities that I’m sure Hashem gave you? In fact, I’d love to hear all about them, & I’m sure I’m not the only one.May 1, 2011 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #795283
I have a couple of nits to pick with your post.
I agree with you that focusing on bitachon can negate anxiety.
But, doesn’t that sort of assume that the source of the anxiety is a lack of bitachon?
If the source is just regular psychological sources, then wouldn’t it be better to deal with the sources, than to try to treat the symptoms with bitachon?
(After all, goyim who have no bitachon are capable of being perfectly happy and non anxious.)
You also mention that one can focus on the worthlessness of this world and how it is only an antechamber to olam haba.
In my opinion, that is usually a source of anxiety for yeshiva guys.
Anxiety in the frum world, is often very tied to religion. You usually find it in people who have had “the fear of heaven” put into them, in unhealthy ways.
For such a person, focusing on those maamrei chazal about the obligations we have in this world, and the impending judgment, can be very counter-productive.May 1, 2011 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #795284
PBA: You’re right. Only I think it’s reversed. MOST issues with Yiddishkeit and Bitachon stem from anxiety. And the anxiety stems from unclarity with Yiddishkeit. It’s a vicious cycle. If one wants to get out of it, they should focus on their bitachon, Yiddishkeit etc. AND their anxiety.
As for goyim being happy, they don’t have a tzelem elokim. They don’t necessarily need to live with a deep meaning (although I’ll never understand how that’s possible).
Dovv: Thanks for your insight. You can get the program by calling: 1-800-515-1133. You can also ask for their website.
It’s not a Jewish program, but it’s totally clean. The DVDs aren’t too tznius but they’re not necessary at all.
Hatzlacha.May 1, 2011 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #795285
As for goyim being happy, they don’t have a tzelem elokim.
Whoa! Who told you that?
That is against the pashtus of the mishna in pirkei avos.
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Now, I think it may be a macholkes, but the pashtus and many shitos are that it applies to goyim. And those shitos need to understand the world also. (but we have discussed this before, and don’t need to sidetrack this thread)May 1, 2011 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #795286
Oooops. Sorry, PBA. I guess you’re right. But, as I said before, they don’t necessarily NEED to live for a higher purpose.May 1, 2011 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #795287
PBA: I hear wat your saying, but i have been told one time when i was anxious that its a lack of bitachon. I dont think its a stira; you can fight anxiety/nervousness by either uprooting the core cause of it like an emotional deep insecurity, etc. or by bitachon or covering it up with just getting used to it. (I’m dealing mostly with speaking in front of ppl / a person)May 2, 2011 12:08 am at 12:08 am #795288
Dovv: If all we’re talking about is fear of public speaking, then don’t worry about it.
But when it is more than that, (ex. anxiety about life, marriage, jobs, careers, children, avodas hashem, learning, etc.) then I don’t think bitachon should be the main focus of dealing with it.
I am aware that many rebbeim, especially in the yeshivos you have attended (based on things you have said), speak only about mussar, and never about emotional health, but there are others who say that emotional health comes before that. Including the Rosh Yeshiva. (RH)May 2, 2011 12:20 am at 12:20 am #795289
lol no they talk about emotional health too dont worry. I agree with u totally i was just suggesting internalizing those things cuz sometimes, in some situations that is what works. Therefore I was just suggesting it here because different ppl are working with different issues and this tactic may work for some.
And stam, bitachon’s always comforting along the path because other processes may be longer, so bitachon keeps ur head up and mind focusedMay 2, 2011 12:24 am at 12:24 am #795290
That’s good. In my day, it was a bit different I guess.May 2, 2011 1:30 am at 1:30 am #795291
“You usually find it in people who have had “the fear of heaven” put into them, in unhealthy ways.”
Could you please specify both the healthy & unhealthy ways you’ve encountered?May 2, 2011 2:34 am at 2:34 am #795292
Could you please specify both the healthy & unhealthy ways you’ve encountered?
Healthy- After first having a proper self image, and understanding of how Hashem runs the world for our benefit.
Unhealthy- Before above. (Or, instead of above)May 2, 2011 2:50 am at 2:50 am #795293
2cool: I have dealt with serious anxiety issues for decades and I can assure you that it is totally unproductive to link anxiety with Bitachon or lack thereof. Those who would try to make you believe that you have a lack of Bitachon, would have you now try to fight your anxiety in addition to added guilt feelings for being weak in Bitachon. No one ever would tell a diabetic that their illness comes from a lack of Bitachon. Similarly, anxiety that causes you all these physical symptoms is caused by real medical issues rather than a lack of Bitachon. What to do about this? Get yourself to a competent mental health professional, who can evaluate what is going on and determine if you need medications or other treatment. Do this – please without delay. Start with your family physician and make sure you don’t leave his/her office without a name of a good mental health professional. Alternatively, you could ask your Rov for a mental health professional referral – that should also be a good route – but be wary of anyone who tells you that you are lacking this or that attitude or that you could self-treat. Absolutely nonsense and dangerous also (no one tells a diabetic to self-treat without going to a physician). Anxiety that cuases such physical distress as you described must be treated by a professional.
When I was dealing with asevere anxiety a few months ago, I wrote a prayer that described my feelings and my request to the Almighty Rofeh Kol Basar to help me. (I do also receive medical treatment, just for the record). I felt better after reciting this prayer and I would be happy to avail the prayer to you, but I must first check with the editors of YWN if I am allowed to post it in this CR forum.
Hatzlacha Rabboh and may Hashem’s Yeshuah come K’Heref Ayin, as long as you do your Hishtadlus to get professional treatment.May 2, 2011 3:19 am at 3:19 am #795294
I 100% agree with most of what you said and ur general suggestion, but:
“No one ever would tell a diabetic that their illness comes from a lack of Bitachon.”
Thats because diabetes is a physical problem. Anxiety is a mental problem with physical symptoms; therefore, (in limited situations, I agree) it could be dealt with on working on bitachon, which is a mental thing.May 2, 2011 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #795295
Dovv: Bitachon is esstential for everyone to help deal with life and life’s challenges, no more or less for a person suffering from anxiety versus a person suffering from diabetes. Each of the above need Bitachon to get through their uncertain fate. But to say that the cause for anxiety is lack of Bitachon; conversely that it can be cured by working on Bitachon alone, is groundless. I know people with magnificient amount of Bitachon, who have dealt with many huge life hurdles with great fortitude, but at the same time they were nervous people. The nervousness could have been treated by a physician, but for reasons I am not certain of, they did not get treatment and suffered for many, many years. No one in their right mind could have said to them: “have more Bitachon and your nervousness will go away” since their level of Bitachon exceeded most other people’s. Also, anxiety is not only a mental thing. Anxiety disorders have been shown to correlate with abberant brain glucose metabolism in specific brain regions, which normalize after anti-anxiety drugs were given, thus demonstrating that emotional issues are very often due to physical causes. I maintain that it is fundamentally wrong and moreover, probably cruel, to tell a person with anxiety disorder(s), that his/her problems stem from lack of Bitachon.May 2, 2011 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #795296
Silent one, thank you for your support. I would love to see your prayer. I want to tell you that I have saught out help. I don’t see it as being so successful. I’ve struggled with this for years. It usually is fine, and i have even been getting off my meds for it, but when a stressful situation comes up, it blows up. I feel like its a never ending battle. I want to be done with it once and for all. I want to be in control of how i feel.May 2, 2011 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #795297
2cool4school: Is there any change for the better? I had you in mind while I davened shacharis. Hope you’ll get better soon. Please let us know if there’s ANY change. Waiting to hear from you!May 3, 2011 12:47 am at 12:47 am #795298
2cool, if you need the meds then take them. Going off meds just for the purposed of getting off the meds is not very productive. If they help you to NOT have the anxiety or to control the anxiety then it is something that you need to consider. If you can’t control the anxiety without it, then stick with it. If you can feel the anxiety coming on and take even half a pill to keep it at bay, then that is something to consider. If that works and then being able to recognize the attack coming on and stopping it with a minimum amount of medication works, then it might be possible to learn a technique when you recognize the attack coming on to stop the attack.May 3, 2011 4:08 am at 4:08 am #795299
aries, i know that. the thing is that i felt the anxiety with the medicine too. I want to get to the root of the problem instead of triyng to cover up for it.May 3, 2011 4:14 am at 4:14 am #795300StuffedCabbageParticipant
do you know the root of the problem?May 3, 2011 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #795301
2cool: There are several different “classes” of drugs that are used to treat anxiety issues. It is quite possible that the drug(s) prescribed for you were not of the correct class to help your individual sort of anxiety (there are different forms of anxiety issues as well and to know which drug should be used, requires correct diagnosis of your type of anxiety). Now please don’t get anxious about what I just said! It is just a matter of finding a psychiatrist who can take care of your unique difficulty. Perhaps you can call ECHO for a referral. Also I believe very much in going to a Gadol for help, to give your name for Tefilla. (I understand that going to a Tzaddik may cause you anxiety, but it is worth it).
As far as getting to the root – it is very difficult to get to the root; the medical field has just NOT progressed in psychiatry as far as they have in other areas of medicine. There may be genetic factors which you can’t control, so it is very worthwhile to concentrate on treating the symptoms with medications and going for talk therapy to reteach you how to take on life’s situations so that they do not cause you as much distress.
I also think that it is very important to have something you love to do, which can be a “haven” or “sanctuary” of safety from anxiety. I won’t list all of the things that cause me anxiety (doing laundry, going shopping, driving – fearful of car trouble, accidents, tickets etc.), but for everything I have one answer: I know that I am going to have a Seder of learning Gemora that evening which slams the door shut on anxiety for the blissful hour I learn. Also, I can’t survive a day at work without constant listening to Miami Boy’s Choir (I was told by 2 Rabbonim that I can listen even during times of Aveilus (e.g. 3 weeks, the year after my father A”H passed away, since it is therapeutic)
I promised the “prayer” I wrote. Here it is:
Dear Father in Heaven, please embrace me and hold my hand for I have no one other than You to lead me
Overcome by anxiety, facing a brick wall ahead of me with nowhere to turn
I have so many tasks that I must fulfill, yet so many seem too overwhelming, like a lead brick on my arm
How will I go on, how will I muster the strength to do what I must do to keep my life from failing
When I drive a car, I fear crashing into the car ahead of me, flying through the windshield
The clock speeds ahead of me, yet I keep falling farther and farther behind on account of all the fear that stops me dead in my tracks
I keep dreaming of wonderful scenarios that would magically and wonderfully take me away from this madness of anxiety
Yet, the anxieties, like the spots on a leopard, keep coming back to me to haunt me in new scenes
I feel so much out of control, wondering whether life can ever go on in a near normal and smooth scenario
All I want to do is go to sleep, because then I am able to escape these cables of anxieties that ensnare me
Please release me from this dread, from the fear of the future and the lead bricks that lead me to a dead stop
Allow me to enjoy the things in life that you intended for us to enjoy, that are so locked up from me in my current state
Please enable the real me to emerge, so that the rest of the world can also get to enjoy the strengths you endowed me with
Perhaps I have been chosen by You to face these challenges so that I help bring strength to others in similar situations
I accept my role willingly and I offer myself as a sacrifice on Your altar to help bring solace to others
But please let me succeed to truly overcome my difficulties for only then will I be able to bring genuine inspiration to others
Please lead me out of this prison, our Dear Father, our Rock and our Light
My dear Father, sometimes I feel as if I need to pull off my own skin in order to get myself to do a task that is so onerous to me
Please give me the strength to overcome these difficulties
So that I may go forward in my life and fulfill the potential you endowed me with
That I may beam with happiness, self-fulfillment and confidence in such a way that others may derive joy and confidence from being with me
Please lift up my light , let the spirit in me fly highMay 3, 2011 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #795302
As with any depression or anxiety issue, it is trial and error with the medication until you find the one that works for you. What works for one patient may not work as well for another. Each patient needs to work with their own doctor and inform them what is happening. The doctor will say whether you have given it enough of a chance to work or not and will suggest either switching or changing the dosage. In order to overcome any medical or mental diagnosis, you have to work in partnership with your doctor. You can’t work separate from him nor try to cure yourself with other people’s advice without keeping him informed on what you are doing.May 3, 2011 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #795303
wow, silent one, i had tears in my eyes as i read your post. So many of the things you wrote, i feel as well. I’m sick of this. I need it to go away. I don’t have the stregnth anymore. And what gets me even more anxious, is that I’m scared this is going to become depression. That scares me even more than anxiety.May 3, 2011 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #795304
2cool: I feel very much for your Tzuros and will be Mispallel for you. I strongly suggest that you should get to a Gadol to ask for an Eitzah and his Tefillos. Perhaps you can arrange to see the Noveminske Rebbe Shlita. He is a very sympathetic person; when I was a teenager in a psychiatric ward, he went to bat for me by speaking to my doctor to get leave permission for me to learn in a Beis HaMedrash (while I was an in-patient!). People also go to the Skvere Rebbe Shlita who is very knowledgeable in medical issues and he regularly recommends physicians for people in need. Do you mind me asking in which city you live – maybe someone can suggest a name of a mental health professional that has been sucessful in anxiety.
If you ever feel like harming yourself Chas V’Shalom, don’t wait another second – just get to a emergency room IMMEDIATELY – it may feel “stupid” to walk into a ER for something like this, but that is what they are there for. I took myself to an ER the Motzei Shabbos after I gave a Get to my ex-wife since I felt so awful and unstable that I feared I would harm myself and they were helpful.
May Hashem send His mercy to you and bring you a Refuah Sheleimah speedily. I am certain that when you find the right Shliach (i.e. the right doctor, hopefully very soon), with Hashem’s help, you will start to feel better.May 3, 2011 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #795305oomisParticipant
Sorry to hear about your problem. Please, in addition to everything else, have a blood test to check for CELIAC Disease. It may be you have a nervous stomach (hope it resolves quickly), but constant stomach upsets can also mask other conditions.May 4, 2011 3:56 am at 3:56 am #795306
silentone, BH i dont feel like harming myself. And were you in a psychiatric ward because of anxiety?May 4, 2011 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #795307
No, it was very complicated – I had anorexia nervosa, combined with OCD (which is a form of an anxiety disorder), but secondarily I developed depression, which in turn led me to do things that were potentially harmful to myself, so it was decided to hospitalize me. The field of medicinal psychiatry has become much more sophisticated today, so that there are a lot more choices of drugs for treating people with anxiety, OCD, depression etc. Back then, very few drugs were available and those had often very undesirable side effects. Today things have advanced greatly in this (as well as all other) field of medicine. Research has shown that when one drug does not work so well by itself (for anxiety in a specific patient; it still may work great for many other patients), that often a combination of 2 drugs works much better than each alone. Therefore, if your doctor has not yet suggested it, you might ask for another medication (since no 2 people respond the same to any given medicine – what works for you may not work for someone else) or a combination of medications (I am saying this since you wrote that you did not get relief from the medications you tried). Instead of seeing this process of finding the “right” drug(s) as painful, you might view it as an “experiment” that you are determined to find the right one (or combination) and will not give up until you find it. Also, if you don’t already have the Miami Boy’s Choir CD called “Bseyata Dishmaya”, I highly suggest you get it and listen to it – it will give you Chizuk. I wish that I could do more to help you, but unfortunately all I can do is encourage you from the distance. Also if you need names of good physicians and mental health professionals, don’t hesitate to call ECHO. I know an excellent LCSW (who is also a Talmid Chochom) in NYC, but I can’t put up his name on this site until I get his permission.
May Hashem bless you with a Yeshua K’Heref Ayin and excellent mental health.May 4, 2011 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #795308
silent one, amen. thank you. i really appreciate it. I was getting nervous that i would need to be hospitalized because of anxiety, after you said that you were. I’m glad things are looking better for you.May 4, 2011 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #795309happiestMember
I was hospitalized twice. Both for depression and I never want to have to do it again BUT they were some of the best experiences of my life. I did so much learning there and through all my experiences there I have changed and become the person I am today. A strong, confident, HAPPY girl (in shidduchim). I probably would not be where I am today without having been there twice.May 5, 2011 1:17 am at 1:17 am #795310NYRANGERSFANMember
2cool4school hi i had the same issue a few months ago let me tell you it was bad! thank god i found a good doctor i recommend to go see a psychiatrist and if you feel the need also a psychologist! dont be afraid to go on medicine it takes about 2 weeks for the theraputic affect to start and within a month you will feel sooooo much better! dont give up because of the side effects try to start low and work your way up till you feel and try to take the medicine with food! most side effects go away after abt a week or so…. my doctor told me to exercise, meditate and do yoga! hope you have a refua shelayma also 1 more thing all your physical symptoms will go away slowly once the medicine starts working!May 5, 2011 2:51 am at 2:51 am #795311
NYRANGERSFAN: Can you please mention what med’s worked well for you? Maybe 2cool could ask her doctor to try the regimen that worked for you. Obviously no people are alike, but it is worth a try.
When people walk into doctor’s offices complaining of anxiety, they are often prescribed one of the benzodiazapene family (such as Valium etc.). But often they need a serotonin-selective reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) such as Prozac (either alone or in combination).
2cool4school: I hope that you will go back to your doctor and ask for a re-evaluation of your med’s. If you are not satisfied, get a new doctor. But do not give up on medication – you will find the right one(s) and it will work. Hatzlacha Rabboh.May 5, 2011 2:58 am at 2:58 am #795312NYRANGERSFANMember
sorry you are right silentone everyone is different and all meds can have different effects on different people! i first tried one med and i got really sick but then my doctor changed me to something else and bh its been working for the last 5 months or so…. so if you choose to go on “meds” speak to your doctor to choose the right one for you!May 5, 2011 4:49 am at 4:49 am #795313boredinofficeParticipant
meds is the way to go as a temp solution. Long term your anxiety should be worked out through therapyMay 5, 2011 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #795314Be HappyParticipant
Try to learn to relax. I know it is very much harder when you are in a difficult situation. When you learn to relax your anxiety will be less. I would recommend Alexander Technique.
Try to keep your shoulders down and your tongue behind your lower teeth – not on your palette!May 5, 2011 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #795315mikehall12382Member
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