Anyone ever hear of a Simchat Bat?

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  • #834628

    essy8
    Member

    i only read the first several posts, but there seems to be a misunderstanding. there is Simchat Bat as held by the modern/reform community where the mother makes a bracha, they have scripture readings, etc. Syrian Sephardim also make what they call a Simchat Bat, which is just a meal/party – similar to a Kiddish, but during the week. the level of fanciness varies, just as by a bris.

    #834629

    oomis
    Participant

    “I denigrate them for creating ritual where chazal did not. I denigrate them for their accusations that chazal were backwards chauvinists.”

    I don’t think an oneg Shabbos to welcome the birth of a baby girl is a ritual in the negative sense that you imply, but even if it were so, who says people have not created rituals that chazal did not? I do not believe Chazal were “backward chauvinists,” and no one should ever say such a thing, but there is nothing inherently wrong with this particular custom, any more than there is something inherently wrong in guys donning a Borsalino hat, white shirt, and black pants as part of their levush, a levush which clearly did not exist in times of Chazal. And if we want to talk about ritual that is “wrong” but not assur, what about boys eating cholent, clearly a Shabbos dish, on Thursday night? It has become a real ritual for many of them and since it is really meant for SHABBOS, it is so wrong for them to make it a Thursday night ritual.

    We create little rituals in virtually every aspect of our lives (is there a halacha that one must drink a glesseleh schnapps on Shabbos by day, as so many men like to do – and feel “off” if they are somewhere where they cannot get the schnapps?). Some people throw pekelach at a bar-mitzvah bochur or chosson after his aliyah, we have the whole aufruf altogether and Shabbos Kallah. When did these things become halachos? (or am I mistaken and they are in fact halachos, in which case, please educate me). There are rituals and there are RITUALS. The little rituals are harmless and in fact more often, beneficial, in bringing people together. If there is no contradiction between the ritual and actual Halacha, then let’s not assume the reason for these rituals taking place is because it is a potch in panim to Chazal, chas v’chalilah, but rather merely a physical manifestation and expression of one’s emotions.

    I did not make a simchas bas when any of my daughters was born. And I kinda regret that. It has nothing to do with feminism or chauvinism, and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that my daughters ARE as important and precious to me as my sons. So we made a kiddush. It was weeks after the fact, when the emotions and excitement were different from the way we all felt that first few days after the baby was born. It’s kind of like when some parents have their chosson and kallah take pictures together BEFORE the chuppah (a practice which appalls me, but which I have seen in some very frum circles). Maybe the badeken is still exciting, but not nearly as exciting as it would have been when it was the first time the chosson and kallah were seeing each other again. Anyhow, that’s my feeling.

    As someone else said, let us all just be zochim to MAKE lots of simchas.

    #834631

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    oomis,

    I don’t think you’re disagreeing with pba about inventing new rituals, but I think you are being a little naive when it comes to (some) peoples motives for creating certain ones. The Chasam Sofer forbade a chuppah in a shul, although it was inherently muttar (the German Jews did it) because it was stressed by the reform, to imitate the notzrim.

    Simchat bat, I believe, was invented (or at least applied by those who don’t really have that minhag) for the wrong reasons.

    BTW, I believe that throwing something by an aufruf (although I think it used to be raisins and nuts) is a real minhag, but it is a more recent innovation to do it at a bar mitzvah as well.

    Oh, and you could have made a kiddush the week after your daughters’ birth, as many people do.

    #834632

    gefen
    Participant

    Luke: I am not involving myself in any machlokes. I just never heard of it before. And i still maintain — All of my children are a big bracha to us!!! There is no audacity in saying that!

    #834633

    gefen
    Participant

    Gavra – ????? (?????? ??) ??’ ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???

    Yes but it is said that ??? does mean he was blessed with a daughter. So I like that view. No I would not chas v’shalom argue with R’Mayer or R’Yehuda. I’m just saying what i think.

    #834634

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Participant

    “I denigrate them for creating ritual where chazal did not”

    Does this mean I can denigrate those who don’t eat gebrokts? Or kitniyot? Those are rituals that were self imposed on top of what chazal enacted. How about upsherin? How about married women shaving their heads. Popa Bar Ridiculous.

    #834635

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    popa: In other words, your objection is not that it’s an innovation but that you don’t like it. Fair enough. I have nothing to say to that. In your own words “now we’re just spouting boych svaros and I like my boych.” 🙂

    #834636

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    This mesora is directly from my cleaning woman, so argue that!”

    Really? Nothing? Not even a chuckle? Wow, tough room. I’ll be here all week, folks. Try the veal!

    #834637

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY: Thank you. That is the point precisely.

    popa: In other words, your objection is not that it’s an innovation but that you don’t like it.

    Yes. And I don’t like it for two (or more) reasons: (A) it is being innovated for a treif reason, (B) the innovators are being idiots in not deferring to much greater authorities.

    Fair enough. I have nothing to say to that. In your own words “now we’re just spouting boych svaros and I like my boych.” 🙂

    Do you really have nothing to say to that? Do you personally think that they are motivated by something aside from feminism?

    There are empirical studies you could do which would cast light on this, you know.

    You might wonder what other areas they have innovated in. If they are mostly feminist areas, that would be telling.

    You might wonder whether they are generally more excited about making parties to thank Hashem for chassadim. For example, if these people are also making parties and saying tehillim at them when they get a job, or graduate college, or whatever, that would be telling also.

    #834638

    gefen
    Participant

    just for the record; i am not advocating this simchas bas thing – at least not the way it’s presented here. a celebration yes – but within halachic guidelines. if sfardim do this, i guess they have their mesorah for it.

    i was just saying how i feel that a daughter is very much a blessing – no less than a son – imho. and no – i am not arguing with the gemara.

    #834639

    Sam2
    Participant

    Gefen, GAW: Many explain that Gemara as Davka applying to Avraham Avinu because if he had a daughter she would have to marry a Goy and her descendants wouldn’t be part of Klal Yisrael. Everyone agrees that under normal circumstances having a daughter is a good thing. Although there is another Gemara which might sound like having daughters is a bad thing…

    #834640

    oomis
    Participant

    Simchat bat, I believe, was invented (or at least applied by those who don’t really have that minhag) for the wrong reasons.”

    I have always subscribed to the belief that “metoch shelo lishma, ba lishma.” Perhaps SOME Jews do certain things for the wrong reasons. That does not mean the things they are doing are inherently bad, only that the motivation behind them MIGHT be. So you take those same actiona and imbue them with a sense of kedusha and hakoras hatov to the Aibishter, and it no longer has the taste of reform or reconstructionist, but becomes something that belongs to us as frum yidden.

    Just because some minhag arises from a less frum source, does not mean that minhag is TREIF as has been said flat out here. Frei Jews also become spiritually inspired at times, and some of their ideas have merit, even if most do not. It is all in how we handle the idea and bring it to fruition that determines its worth. I think that making an oneg shabbos on the Friday night after the birth of a baby girl, is a lovely way to say brucha habaa. I wish I had thought of it when I had my babies. And though the boys may be having a bris, the girls are the bearers and rearers of the next generation of Yidden.

    #834641

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Charlie Brown – I am well aware that ECHO was started by and is run by frum Jews. The doctors that are part of the network, who are willing to seek out a colleague at the drop of a hat, include Jews of all backgrounds, and those who would malign a thing because of the participation of Jews who are reform or otherwise not frum would be hypocrites if they used a network like ECHO. That was my point in bringing it up.

    #834642

    shmoolik 1
    Participant

    according to the Hebrew Wikipedia

    http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%96%D7%91%D7%93_%D7%94%D7%91%D7%AA

    its origins in ashkenaz during the middle ages???? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ??????. ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??????, ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ?????. ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????, ??? ?? ???? ??????: “??? ???? ?? ??????” ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???????, ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??????, ????? ???? ?? ???. ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? “??? ?????” ?”????? ?????”, ??????, ?? ??????, ???? ?? ??????? ????. ???? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ????, ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ??.

    ????? (???? ?????? ???? ????), ????? ????? ???? ???????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????: ??? ???? ??? ?????, ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ????????. ????? ??? ???? ????? “??? ??????????” ??????? ?????? ?????? ????, ???? ????? ?? ?? ???????. ???? ???, ????? ???? ????? ???, ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? (??? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ????), ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????. ??? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ?????.

    ???? ?-19 ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ???, ????? ??????? ??? ‘????? ???’. ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????, ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????, ??????? ???? ??????, ????? ?????. ????? ???? ???? ??? ???????, ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ??????? ???. ??? ??, ??????? ?????, ??? ?? ????? ?? ????.

    nothing new under the sun

    #834643

    kapusta
    Participant

    Really? Nothing? Not even a chuckle? Wow, tough room. I’ll be here all week, folks. Try the veal!

    I thought it was pretty good but looks like I got here a little too late.

    *kapusta*

    #834644

    former nyer
    Member

    I personally don’t see what all this machlokes is about. The parents are celebrating the birth of a child, they can celebrate how they want, nothing wrong with saying Tehillim or thanking Hashem for this miracle,(which is being forgotten that each life is a miracle).

    I advocate mixed marriages ( Ashkenaz and Sfard) then u have the best of both. I’m Ashkenaz and married a Sfardi, and we have noooooo problem with ALL the different minhagim. When our oldest son was born we had a Shalom Zachar (even though the Sfardim do not have shalom zachars). When my daughter was born, my father made a kiddush in shul in her honor, and we also made a seudah hodaah/kiddush in her honor on shabbas. We eat gebrocht,kitniyot, and rice on Pesach ( I have no problem with that). The Chossen and Kallah see each other before the wedding and take pictures before…..this way the guests at the wedding don’t have to wait an hour after the chuppah for everyone to take pictures. BTW my hubby is from a very frum Sfardi family, and they do celebrate the birth of girls.

    So don’t put down other peoples minhagim if u are ignorant about them, and live and let live. no harm done

    #834646

    Feif Un
    Participant

    The Friday night after my daughter was born, I had a nice party in my house. I served beer, chickpeas, cookies, cake, and other nosh. There were sodas for people who didn’t want alcohol. I got many mazal tovs from friends and neighbors and nobody had any issues with what I was doing.

    #834647

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Many explain that Gemara as Davka applying to Avraham Avinu because if he had a daughter she would have to marry a Goy and her descendants wouldn’t be part of Klal Yisrael

    Source? That is certainly not the Pashtus in the Gemorah.

    I have heard it is written in the K’sav Sofer B’shem the Rambam that the reason that the Rambam explains was due to the hardships of finding shidduchim for daughters (as the Ramabam says he personally had), due to the shidduch crisis of 900 years ago.

    #834648

    oomis
    Participant

    The Friday night after my daughter was born, I had a nice party in my house. I served beer, chickpeas, cookies, cake, and other nosh. There were sodas for people who didn’t want alcohol. I got many mazal tovs from friends and neighbors and nobody had any issues with what I was doing. “

    nice. 🙂

    #834649

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The Friday night after my daughter was born, I had a nice party in my house. I served beer, chickpeas, cookies, cake, and other nosh. There were sodas for people who didn’t want alcohol. I got many mazal tovs from friends and neighbors and nobody had any issues with what I was doing.

    Excellent. We’ve got a real person to discuss it with.

    Feif: Why did you do that? It seems like you deliberately imitated what people do for a boy.

    Did you just happen to think that chick peas and beer were the most festive thing you could serve?

    Maybe you just happen to enjoy eating chick peas so much. They’re not very expensive-you should eat them more often if you do.

    I personally like having a nice kiddush with scotch, shmaltz herring, and cholent with kishke. Maybe that’s why I do that?

    Weren’t you trying to give your daughter a measure of parity with boys? Maybe you felt that this would ensure that you valued her as much as you do your boys? Maybe you felt it would help other people realize that girls are as valuable as boys?

    Or maybe I’m totally missing the reason. Why don’t you tell us.

    #834650

    Feif Un
    Participant

    oomis1105: What I didn’t write was that it was a shalom zachor!

    #834651

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    Bless you, Kapusta.

    #834652

    apushatayid
    Participant

    This is WAAAAY off topic 🙂

    “And if we want to talk about ritual that is “wrong” but not assur, what about boys eating cholent, clearly a Shabbos dish, on Thursday night?”

    About 28 years ago, as a 9th or 10th grader, I heard R’ Chaim Mintz Shlita, speak at the leil Shabbos Seuda in Yeshiva Staten Island. He was giving mussar to “those bachurim who went into the kitchen and ate cholent late thursday night and erev shabbos”…He listed a number of reasons why it was wrong among them, that chulent is a “special maychel shabbos” and should be saved for shabbos, and eating it before shabbos is a zilzul in the kavod shabbos.

    #834653

    Nechomah
    Participant

    YT – I also got a good laugh out of your attempt to bring some levity to this very tough room. Unfortunately, I can’t stay to have any veal with you ‘cuz I like my coffee with milk, but please enjoy.

    #834654

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    oomis1105: What I didn’t write was that it was a shalom zachor!

    lol! Twins?

    #834655

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I had twins, a girl and a boy, so the Friday night after my daughter was born, I made a Shalom Zachar.

    #834656

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant
    #834657

    gefen
    Participant

    Feif Un: great! loved your post!

    #834658

    oomis
    Participant

    Feif Un: and you were doing SO well….

    #834659

    I think the problem here is that the parents are expressing a lack of emunas chachomim and are not keeping in line with our mesorah:

    First of all, while it may be true (I’ve never heard of this but I can ask my b-i-l who is sephardi and didn’t have this for his daughter) that certain sephardim have some sort of “simachas bat”, I think it was assumed that the parents here were not sephardi. This then is a clear violation of their mesorah. The mesorah is there for a reason, not to cherry pick what we like about it, but to follow. I can’t start putting my tefillin shel yad on while sitting (as sephardim do), simply because I think it is the “better” way. It is not part of my mesorah. A mesorah that was formulated by the talmidei chachamim of my ancestors’generations. Which brings me to my next point.

    The halachos of the S”A are not the only place we turn to for deciding how to run our lives. It is the basis, yes, but within the strictures of the S”A we are required to follow our Rabbonim. Those Rabbonim can and do institute further minhagim into our mesorah, such as kitniyos (as was pointed out in another post) and even gebrokts. These reasons make sense to them, and as I am not even a fraction of the talmuch chacham that they are, it is incumbent on me to be mevatel myself to their da’as.

    Ashkenaz Rabbonim have not instituted any sort of “simchas bat” and therefor it is not part of our mesorah. By formally ritualizing a practice that was not instituted by our Rabbonim, a person is essentially saying, “Rabbonim, your reasons for not instituting minhag X are invalid in face of my feelings.”

    Yes, the birth of a daughter, I can testify to, is a very joyous time. But that doesn’t give us the right or the ability to begin performing rituals that are not part of our mesorah.

    I am not expressing my opinion of these people as people. Obviously these are people that feel tremendous gratitude for every gift they are given. However, their actions express how they associate to certain aspects of Judaism. That is not a judgment on them, that the reality that they are manifesting with their actions.

    #834660

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Derech, while I respect the way you stated your perspective (not, like some others here, determining that “the other” is worthy of denigration) even though you disagree with their actions, I think there is a fundamental issue at play here, and a serious one, that you illustrate. One perspective is that not only are the general structures and many pratim of our daily lives circumscribed and detailed to the smallest iota by our mesorah, but our thoughts, intentions, and expressions of joy within holocho are as well, down to the tiniest details. I accept that many people, many communities, see that as the only way to live their lives, and the best way, according to their understanding of the mesorah. I would ask, though, how does such an environment deal with change? I’ll take something simple. A heimishe family dpoesn’t often have the opportunity to eat out of the home, at a restaurant. For many of our families, being large, it is an impossibility. One of the ways in which our families have been able to afford this is the growth and popularity of pizza among heimishe communities. Now, you know and I know that pizza is and was completely foreign to the conveyors of our mesorah less than 100 years ago. You and I also know that there is plenty of detail in terms of holocho and minhag that guides what and how we eat in detail. And yet, it is a rare kehila or community indeed that bans pizza as minhag akum, or ‘past nisht”. I know, I know, this is a simplistic example. But truly, it speaks to the issue. It doesn’t violate holocho. Eventually, Rabonim got their heads around it to the point of making determinations of how many slices require a mezonos and how many a hamotzi. It didn’t need to be a michshol simply because it was a chidush. This leads to my point. As I wrote earlier, I got and aliyah, named my daughters, made a kiddush in shul. I have my own minhag which I am comfortable with. But if there is at least some precedent; if the activities are within the boundaries of halocho, even if they are different than some minhagim; if the event is done lesheim shomayim and with real hakoras hatov to HKBH; is it against halocho to do it? And further – what are we doing investing generations of time, money, resources and sweat creating mosdos and places where our kinderlach learn how to learn, learn how to find teshuvos, learn how to apply what they learn to their lives, if we are just going to tell them to as their LOR what colour shoelaces to wear, or which side of a table to sit down at? What was the point of all of that effort if we and our children won’t be expected to use our seichel and our capacity to find guidance in the massive canon of halocho to help us make decisions in our lives?

    #834661

    BrainwasheD
    Participant

    apushitayid:

    About 28 years ago, as a 9th or 10th grader, I heard R’ Chaim Mintz Shlita, speak at the leil Shabbos Seuda in Yeshiva Staten Island. He was giving mussar to “those bachurim who went into the kitchen and ate cholent late thursday night and erev shabbos”…He listed a number of reasons why it was wrong among them, that chulent is a “special maychel shabbos” and should be saved for shabbos, and eating it before shabbos is a zilzul in the kavod shabbos.

    BINGO! But why is this here instead of the colored shirts thread?

    #834662

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    A Bar Mitzvah (As practiced in 2011 with a Large Kiddish and Major party) are not part of our mesorah either

    Giving Presents on Chanukah is not part of our Mesorah either

    #834663

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    yichusdik,

    I know, this is a simplistic example. But truly, it speaks to the issue.

    Nor is the color of our shoelaces (nowadays) a religious issue.

    zahavasdad,

    A Bar Mitzvah (As practiced in 2011 with a Large Kiddish and Major party) are not part of our mesorah either</em.

    The size of the celebration seems to have gotten out of hand, but I don’t think a kiddush, or the idea of a seudas mitzvah, is anything new.

    Giving Presents on Chanukah is not part of our Mesorah either

    Correct, although there may be a basis for “Chanukah Gelt”.

    #834664

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Correct, although there may be a basis for “Chanukah Gelt”.

    I dont think when my kids ask for a Rebecca Rubin American Girl doll or an iPad they want “GELT”

    #834665

    yicuhusdik:

    I don’t think the problem with pizza is that it is new per se. There are people who don’t eat turkey because there is no mesorah for it. But I don’t think that it is the same reason for not eating pizza. I think there are other factors that led to those communities assur-ing pizza. Such as the propensity of people to congregate at pizza stores (think ave.’s j and m on friday afternoon).

    Large families do have other options- its not the first time in Jewish history that we’ve had families without much money that needed food to eat. There are plenty of alternatives. The difference is that those other options are not as tasty or “fun”.

    But if there is at least some precedent; if the activities are within the boundaries of halocho, even if they are different than some minhagim; if the event is done lesheim shomayim and with real hakoras hatov to HKBH; is it against halocho to do it?

    As I said before, the problem is not that it might violate halacha but that it violates a mesorah. Consider, if you would go to Rav Elyashiv and say, I would like to celebrate the birth of my daughter according to the way those parents did, what do you think he is likely to say? Unless he feels you are so far from Torah that by doing this you’ll at least maintain some ties to Judaism he is most likely going to say no. It is not what we do. For a reason. So you can circumvent this problem by not asking Rav Elyashiv and then saying that you are doing it l’sheim shomayim. But shomayim wants you to do what Rav Elyashiv (or your LOR) tells you to do, not what you think is the right thing to do. Hasme wants mitzvos l’sheim shomayim, not aveiros l’sheim shomayim (not that I’m saying its an aveirah, but you get my point).

    What was the point of all of that effort if we and our children won’t be expected to use our seichel and our capacity to find guidance in the massive canon of halocho to help us make decisions in our lives?

    I would say that the money we invest is to teach our children when to ask questions. If you don’t know there is a halacha of borer on shabbos, you won’t know to ask if you can pull your jacket out from the bottom of the jacket pile.

    Yes, we need to learn Halacha and when we reach a certain level of competency in it, we will be able to make a comparative level of decisions on our own. But even the famous poseik Dovid HaMelech double checked his decisions with his Rebbe.

    #834666

    oomis
    Participant

    Correct, although there may be a basis for “Chanukah Gelt”.

    It is a reminder that the Chashmonaim made coins.

    #834667

    oomis
    Participant

    And yet, it is a rare kehila or community indeed that bans pizza as minhag akum, or ‘past nisht”.

    That’s because the pizza we eat is “pas-t Yisroel.” 🙂

    #834668

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Ashkenaz Rabbonim have not instituted any sort of “simchas bat” and therefor it is not part of our mesorah”

    Just curious. Did they institute the concept of making a kiddush in shul to celebrate the birth of a daughter? Celebrating an engagement with a “vort”? Chulent thursday nights? Late minyanim for shachris during bein hazmanim? These are all part of the Ashkenazic “mesorah”. I think what is most important is that someone who wants to make a “simchat bat” or whatever it is you want to call such a gathering, that it be done in a way that if they invite their Rav he would have no problems with any of the proceedings.

    #834669

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “BINGO! But why is this here instead of the colored shirts thread?”

    I give up. Why?

    #834670

    RSRH
    Member

    “Nor is the color of our shoelaces (nowadays) a religious issue.”

    Perhaps not to you. To others, particularly the RWMO who live in the wider world in full compliance of halacha, EVERTHING is a religious issue, and NOTHING is a religious issue.

    Some people here tend to discredit my credentials as a follower of R. Hirsh’s TIDE because my views do not fit into the dumbed-down version of TIDE indicated by the Artscroll biography of R. Hirsch. So allow me to give over a small bit of R. Hirsch’s Torah:

    Judaism is not a religion in the conventional sense of the word. There are no “religious rituals” there are no “religious” issues and “secular” issues. There is just life – in all its variations – and halacha, the laws we must adhere to and guide our conduct by. RSRH regularly condemned the Reform movement precisely because they viewed Judaism as a religious, and its practices as rituals. Eating pizza is a halachic issue (is it kosher, do i need to wash and bench, is it yoshon, is it overpriced and a violation of ona’ah, ect.); choosing shoelaces is a halchic issue; davening is a halachic issue; using the bathroom is a halachic issue; getting an education is a halachic issue; running a business is a halachic issue.

    To say that something is a halachic issue, however, is not to say that the halacha dictates a particular course of conduct. Some things are divrei halacha – where we wear our tefilin, how we heat up food on shabbos, what bracha to make on chocolate covered strawberries. other things are divrei reshus – what color shoelaces to wear; whether to be a doctor, lawyers, teacher, or janitor, what color suit to wear; what to eat on friday night; what kind of car to buy, ect. The fact that these things are not devarim shebireshus does not mean they are not halachic issues – it just means that the halacha allows for discretion in deciding how to act, to each according to his or her own nature and preference and abilities.

    So, to say that making a simchas bas is problematic because it is creating a new ritual is really to mistate the misframe the issue. The question is not about arbitraily categorizing some things we do as “religious” and others as not religious. The question is how does the halacha view this practice. Is this the kind of thing where the halacha dictates a particular course of conduct (i.e., it is assur to make a simchas bas), or is this a situation where we have discretion to act as we see fit, each guided by their own hashkafa, and their own understanding of broad Torah principles? If the latter, everyone can do as they see fit. Some people tend to be more traditional, tend to need traditional and mesorah to maintain there halachic lifestyle (chasidim are a prime example of this), and for those people, a simchas bas would be distasteful and unnecessary. They can certainly refrain from doing it. Others are more independent and feel the need to express their individuality (within halachic bounds, of course). Some may even be inclined towards contemporary feminism to some extent (*gasp*). They might need a simchas bas as a basic part of bringing Torah into every aspect of their lives, and that’s fine for them.

    The fact that they are motivated by feminism is no worse than other people’s being motivated by traditionalism or conservatism or other “isms” that influence how we make decisions within the bounds of halachic discretion. The problems arise when certain ideologies are expressed in actions that violate halacha, whether that means feminists say barchu at a women’s minyan, or chassidim cheat on their taxes, or MO fail to follow basic tznius and negiah rules. In any case, yesh din v’yeish dayan. God is more than capable of judging people’s motivations, if He so chooses. We cannot fully understand anyone’s complex motivations for acting a certain way; we are not in their shoes. We can judge only based on the actions we can externally observe, and then only by objective standards of halacha – not by imposing our own standards of how to act in devarim shebirishus.

    #834671

    devrachel
    Member

    FYI…

    Zebed Habat is a sephardic custom! Many groups have mesorah in this , It has nothing to do with feminism or conservatives or whatever…. It is a lovely simcha to have and people celebrate according to their means so some are simple and some quite lavish. I agree with that poster who said live and let live, B’H for both Boys and girls being born.

    This is from a texbook I own , Plus I’m a mixed of different sephardim (portuguese,persian,spanish & my husband has syrian french roots)

    Syrians name girls at their kehilla chanting pizmonim lezebed habat.

    A sabt (kiddush) and seudah are provided in honor of the naming for family and friends.

    Morrocans name the girl at home. they recite pizmonim entitled biti kodesh shamati or hakol yashuv lefar. seuda taks place after the ceremony.Judeo spanish tradition call it Fadas or zebet habat it is held at home Shir hashirim and mishaberach is said. Seuda to follow.

    Spanish and Portuguese jews :do a zebed habat by having a private ceremony at shul ,mum does hagomel , hazzan blesses the child. follow by shi hamaalot ashrei kol yerei hashem (tehillim 128)

    Source A treasury of Sephardic laws and Customs Herbert C.dobrinski ktav Press 1988

    Pages 3,10,20,25.

    *In my family Persian side we salt girls before naming ,it was done to babies in the ancient times. : )

    #834672

    ayid:

    Just curious. Did they institute the concept of making a kiddush in shul to celebrate the birth of a daughter? Celebrating an engagement with a “vort”? Chulent thursday nights? Late minyanim for shachris during bein hazmanim? These are all part of the Ashkenazic “mesorah”. I think what is most important is that someone who wants to make a “simchat bat” or whatever it is you want to call such a gathering, that it be done in a way that if they invite their Rav he would have no problems with any of the proceedings.

    Making kiddush for the birth of a daughter in a Rabbinically sanctioned minhag.

    Some form of vort was probably started by Rabbanim and it is only now that they’ve become ridiculously ostentatious that problems began.

    Chulent Thursday nights can’t be called a minhag anymore then Thursday night pizza or Sunday night leftovers.

    I think as long as one davens before the zman, there is no problem if you decide to daven later then yeshivah minyan during bein hazmanim.

    I think you are (either purposely or not purposely) trying to conflate things minhagim with things that people do that might be wrong. Just because many many people talk during davening doesn’t mean that its the minhag to talk during davening. People do the wrong thing all the time. The question here is, what is the right thing.

    I do agree with your last statement although I would add the caveat that the Rav be qualified for his position.

    #834673

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    I dont think when my kids ask for a Rebecca Rubin American Girl doll or an iPad they want “GELT”

    No, but if you gave them enough gelt, they could get a Rebecca Rubin American Girl doll or an iPad (although I don’t think kids should have ipads).

    #834674

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    oomis,

    It is a reminder that the Chashmonaim made coins.

    Thank you.

    #834675

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    RSRH,

    Some people here tend to discredit my credentials as a follower of R. Hirsh’s TIDE

    Hoe did this become a discussion about you?

    So, to say that making a simchas bas is problematic because it is creating a new ritual is really to mistate the misframe the issue.

    That’s fine, because that wasn’t really my point. I’m not arguing against the development of new minhagim, there’s a history to how all minhagim, even those based on d’var r’shus, developed.

    We cannot fully understand anyone’s complex motivations. We can judge only based on the actions we can externally observe, and then only by objective standards of halacha

    My point is precisely to dispute this argument. If we bury our heads in the sand and ignore the obvious fact that the simchat bat “ritual” was invented – not developed, but invented – to discredit chaza”l, then we are guilty of the same, through inaction.

    #834676

    apushatayid
    Participant

    DH. Yes, I purposely blurred the lines. That was my point. Not every action has a mesorah attached to it. What it should have, as alluded to in my last sentence is that it be done according to halacha. For me, it means following my Rav and his psak, for you it means following your Rav and his psak and for the makers of the Simchat Bat mentioned by the OP, it means following the psak of her Rav.

    #834677

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I would add the caveat that the Rav be qualified for his position.”

    Which is where I think this entire thread went off an a tangent. The OP mentioned a certain Rabbi and the resulting posts of feminism and the like dominated the discussion. The Zeved Habat done by Sefardim predates this Rabbi as well as moses mendelsohn the father of reform jewery.

    #834678

    bp27
    Participant

    A vort is a new simcha in the following sence. Until 30 years ago, people made a Tenoyim with a seudah, which is something discussed numerous times in the seforim and halacha.

    For some reason we dropped the idea of writing Tenoyim (in American Litvishe circles), and had to rename the party as a “vort”.

    Have a tenoyim is still the norm among Chassidim, as well as by Litveshe in Eretz Yisroel.

    #834679

    truthsharer
    Member

    Upsherin

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