November 22, 2021 8:11 am at 8:11 am #2031742
After several years of learning Gemara we pick up a reasonable enough understating of Aramaic. However, that’s only good enough to understand it. When it comes to writing you find that you aren’t really proficient at all.
What is the plural suffix, yud or vav? There are examples of both. In fact, there’s also a vav inserted before the last letter. What are the rules?
How would you say, “I said”? Is it אמרית or אמרי? I believe you find both.
Rashi in Eiruvin 93 uses פליגי to mean ‘I argue’. The Bach changes it to פליגנא. But that is really a fancy version. It is akin to ‘we argue’. But, I don’t recall any פלגית or פלגאי, but perhaps פליגי is just fine and ‘they argue’ is pronounced פליגֵי while ‘I argue’ is פליגִי.November 22, 2021 8:50 am at 8:50 am #2031844
Look at Rabbenu Bachaya Devarim (33,25) on the word davecha targum conjugated like Hebrew.November 22, 2021 9:27 am at 9:27 am #2031870
Even in Hebrew the female version can be, to provide mesapka or masapekes.November 22, 2021 9:27 am at 9:27 am #2031874ujmParticipant
About 100 years ago someone reported finding one of the lost Mesechtas of Shas. A Mesechta that hadn’t been seen in many many hundreds of years. People, including Talmidei Chachomim, believed and accepted it initially. But after a few months people started noticing subtle errors that proved it was a forgery, albeit written by someone who was very well acquainted with Gemorah and Aramaic to fool people for quite a bit.November 22, 2021 9:30 am at 9:30 am #2031879
Grammar is the correct spelling.November 22, 2021 10:47 am at 10:47 am #2031909BenephraimParticipant
The Yerushalmi on Kodshim was found a while back. The Rambam says that we must believe that the whole Torah is with us from Moshe Rabenu. No new finds.November 22, 2021 10:54 am at 10:54 am #2031917akupermaParticipant
One should remember that Aramaic (still a living language) has been around, based on literary records, for at least 3000 years, and the texts Yidden are likely to encounter cover a period well over 1000 years – AND LIVING LANAGUAGES EVOLVE OVER TIME. Compared to English over the millenia, Aramaic is relatively consistent. While Daniel could probably chat with the Amoraim, they would have sound very strange to each other. Do not be shocked in one encounters greater variety in Aramaic than is the case of Lashon Kodesh, since the importance of Tanach tended to slow down the natural tendency of languages to evolve over time.November 22, 2021 11:20 am at 11:20 am #2032038
Reb Eliezer, what exactly are you trying to show with that Rabbeinu Bachya in Devarim?November 22, 2021 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2032050
The Rabbenu Bachaya says that המלה בלולה משתי לשונות, it is a mix of Hebrew and Aramaic like arseinu a bed.November 22, 2021 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #2032017AviraDeArahParticipant
Jews spoke a judaicized aramaic, similar to yiddish. I don’t think they had to adhere to very strict dikduk rules like lashon kodeshNovember 22, 2021 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #2032089AviraDeArahParticipant
Eres is hebrew too; it’s in tehilim, the kapitel we say by nefilas apayinNovember 22, 2021 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #2032096n0mesorahParticipant
What Akuperma pointed out is very relevant.
I would like to add that the Talmudim and the Targum were spoken and intended for recital. The nuances of speech is very different than rules of grammar. And a third point. The classical Semites had less grammar than the classical Greeks. As they wrote in verse, they had much more flexibility than had they ascribed to logically dictated structures.November 22, 2021 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #2032321
> LIVING LANAGUAGES EVOLVE OVER TIME
it was also spoken over multiple countries leading to geographic differences.November 22, 2021 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #2032371
It should be very evident that the are multiple dialects. Targum is different than Yerushalmi/Medrash, and those as different from Bavli. Bavli is (most masechtos) consistent. Nobody speaks a wishy-washy language.
English also changed. Does that mean we don’t follow rules? Of course there’s a certain grammar system. There might be multiple dialects within Bavel, too, with smaller differences.
There are some Sefarim which codify the different Aramaic systems, but I don’t have any. I can’t imagine reading through one, either. Dry Dikduk is very hard to plunge through.
If קאי means to stand, and the present tense is קאים, what about ‘going’? Is that זילם? Er, no. That would perhaps be מיזל, אזיל. So, is that because קאי ends with a vowel? Or maybe the real word is קאים but the מי”ם gets dropped in its usage.
Does Aramaic have all 7 בנינים?November 22, 2021 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #2032408
Just want to point out that the Torah use the word but doesn’t actually speak Aramaic. This is akin to the way we borrow Yiddish words but with English grammar, and how we use Hebrew words in Yiddish, such as שחט’ען, הרג’נען, מורא’דיג, תורה’דיג, בא’כבודיק…November 22, 2021 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #2032422n0mesorahParticipant
I was just explaining why Semitic grammar is harder to pick up, than the grammar of European languages. To do so from merely studying the gemara, takes a genius.November 22, 2021 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #2032487
We can learn much from the targum on chumash.November 23, 2021 6:34 am at 6:34 am #2032522
“We can learn much from the targum on chumash.”
Share what you’ve got. Unless you’re starting out now.November 23, 2021 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #2032696hujuParticipant
I thought an Aramaic grammer was someone who sends a telegram in Aramaic.November 23, 2021 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #2032751
> sends a telegram in Aramaic.
might be shorter than English when paying per letter. But Chinese is even better.November 23, 2021 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #2032814
Chinese is more bytes per characterNovember 23, 2021 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #2032812ujmParticipant
AAQ: Telegrams charge per word, not per letter
Hence all the creative ways of making “one word” inclusive of multiple words.November 23, 2021 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #2032832
Maybe one who sings in Aramaic about an individual is a grammer in yiddish.November 23, 2021 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #2033088
ujm, sorry for the confusion, did not send a telegram for a long time.
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