December 28, 2011 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #601354soliekMemberDecember 28, 2011 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #839655
Why stop at the internet, Why not ban Cars, Radio (Shtus Music), Telephones (Think how much Losha Hora occurs on the telephone)
Electricity (You cant read Prizus without electricity)December 28, 2011 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #839656BTGuyParticipant
I think the bans are good and need to be done to preserve the level of that community.
On the tail end of Chanukah, it has to reiterated that one of the messages of Chanukah is true. Being influenced by the mindset of “Yavonim” who create these books and movies, etc., influence us in a negative way.
Being a bt guy, I have to tell you that indulging in such things like movies or books by certain non-Jewish authors/poets, does set me back from the mindset I am trying to build in my efforts to come closer to Hashem.
Now, if someone is caught violating a ban, how should they be dealt with? That is another problem.December 28, 2011 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #839657
zahavasdad: you’re right. Nothing should be banned. Why not give your kids loaded guns?December 28, 2011 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #839658
Flowers – Cars probably kill more people than guns
And besides killing there are alot more Averios done in cars than with GunsDecember 28, 2011 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #839659soliekMember
“Electricity (You cant read Prizus without electricity)”
thats not trueDecember 28, 2011 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #839660ravshalomParticipant
Zahavasdad makes a good point. Flowers – guns are not banned either, even if I don’t give them to my kids. What about a chain saw…would you give one to your kids? According to your logic we should thus ban chain saws.
There is obviously quite a large range between banning an admittedly dangerous tool (a description that can apply to the internet, guns, or chain saws) and giving your kids (or yourself) free reign to do what you want with it. It has to be treated with the proper care and respect, not be banned.
Most of the gedolim in America came to this realization in the last few years. Those in Eretz Yisrael are generally at the same place as the American gedolim were about 15 years ago, when even the American gedolim favored banning, for the most part. Things happen more slowly in EY, but mark my words, the day will arrive when the Internet will be an absolute necessity, first in the US and a decade or two later in EY. And this isn’t many decades away either. The American gedolim currently are working with the underlying truth that if we don’t work to protect ourselves from it, we will be in a much worse situation. I predict the gedolim in EY will do the same within the next 10-15 years, and possibly much sooner.
(Please don’t get me wrong…I am not saying that the gedolim in EY don’t “get it yet” C”V. I just mean that in EY they are not yet at that stage where it is as widespread a necessity. And there are a number of gedolim in EY who already are beginning to work to find a solution for the internet, as opposed to banning it, though they may choose to be less vocal than those who favor banning it altogether.)December 28, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #839661BTGuyParticipant
It IS true.
You cant even drive a Prizus without electricity!December 28, 2011 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #839662
I think the communities in E’Y are more isolated than those elsewhere ESPECIALLY New york City
As isolated as Borough park is, Its STILL NYC, The buses that run on 13th Ave have NYC ads. If you Ride the Subway on new Utrecht you will meet all kinds of people.
Williamsburg besides being a Chassidic community is also a Hipster community with the BQE running down the middle
Even lakewood is only about 50% jewish so living and dealing with Non-Jews is common
HOWEVER in Israel its very different other than Meir Sharim seeing tourist who want to see that community it is isolated
Its more So for Beit Shemesh or Bnei Brak, outsiders dont really go there as much.
This is why I think these things are all happening in Israel more than the US, The People in Israel dont understand and dont need to understand.December 28, 2011 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #839663TheGoqParticipant
“You cant even drive a Prizus without electricity!”
Hilarious BTG hilarious!!!December 28, 2011 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #839664ToiParticipant
zdad- did you uncharacteristicly just admit that a ban, when called for by gedolim, should be upheld? my, your genius is compelling.December 28, 2011 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #839665
No I just agreed with ravshalom that the Gedolim in the US see things differently than the ones in EY.
But I am not sure the ones in EY will see it any differently any time soon.
I dont think the ones in Israel want any part of the non-charedi world and want to force their adherents to be totally seperate, and not just about the internet. They even ban speaking English which of course is impossible in the US. You cant really use the internet properly without speaking english (Most of the internet is in English – Of course there are other languages represented ) But English DominatesDecember 28, 2011 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #839666Raphael KaufmanMember
Chazal are clear that one should not issue a psak that will not be generally followed. when a ban on the internet or smart phones is generally ignored by the hamon am, it diminishes and engenders disrespect all piskei rabbanan.December 28, 2011 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #839667
zehavasdad: You can choose what to ban for your own childrens well being and then wait and see… but don’t tell Gedolim who have much more experience with a klal than a private person, what to ban or not.
THEY SEE AND HEAR ALL THE TZOROS , ON A DAILY BASIS.December 28, 2011 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #839668
Some Gedolim Banned people from coming to America calling it a traif medina.
If my great-grandparents had listend. I would not be hereDecember 28, 2011 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #839669
You don’t really want to hear what I would say to that do you?December 28, 2011 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #839670ToiParticipant
zdad- blank. vihameivin yavin.December 28, 2011 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #839671
Zdad: You missed my point. If you think that banning internet means you should ban everything else why is the reverse not true? It makes no difference if cars kill more than guns or vice versa. The point is according to your logic the reverse should also be true. If you allow internet, why not allow EVERYTHING? Sounds stupid, no?December 28, 2011 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #839672
What about a chain saw
I have yet to hear of someone continuing to use a chain saw because he is addicted to it’s use even though it’s doing a great deal of damage like chopping off his toes and fingers.December 29, 2011 12:04 am at 12:04 am #839673musser zogerParticipant
“Some Gedolim Banned people from coming to America calling it a traif medina.
If my great-grandparents had listend. I would not be here “
Even more so many who listened to rabbonim not to go to America, the treife medina, were murdered in the Shoah. How does that shtim w/ daas Torah? Anyone?December 29, 2011 12:05 am at 12:05 am #839674
and Zdad, According to you, guns aren’t as dangerous as cars, nor as spirtually dangerous, so why not leave them around your house. What exactly were you trying to prove?December 29, 2011 12:13 am at 12:13 am #839675
and Zdad, it is obvious the reason why guns kill less people is simple because most people don’t own them. And those that do have it locked up and it hardly gets used!! Doesn’t that tell you something??!!December 29, 2011 1:48 am at 1:48 am #839676
Flowers Maybe you are advocating a filtered internet
The ban is not a Filtered Internet, Not YWN, Not Project Yes, Not the Shumz , Not Yahoo , Not ESPN Not ANYTHING. NO INTERNET.
And for those who condemn me for not listening to the gedolim on this, you are on the internet too.
Most of my Charedi relatives are not on the internet, EXCEPT MAYBE e-mail (If they need it) not YWN, Not The Shumz, not ANYTHINGDecember 29, 2011 4:45 am at 4:45 am #839677
Zehavasdad: For the first time I agree with you. It’s time for me to say goodbye!I was on internet for business so this came along but you’re right, the gedolim mean this too!!December 29, 2011 5:17 am at 5:17 am #839678RABBAIMParticipant
Mussar zogger- If we lived for olam hazeh, you have a question. But the primary world is thie Olam Habah. Do you think they are not getting just and appropriate reward for following Daas Torah whee they are now? Is Hashem punishing or rewarding them for listening?
We need to see the picture from Hashems perspective. I am sure that if we were able to communicate with any of those neshamos, they would choose to stay rather than come down. Like the story of the 2 year old killed by terrorists who came to his mother in a dream.
With Emunah it is all acceptable as is.December 29, 2011 5:18 am at 5:18 am #839679RABBAIMParticipant
If the net ban is Ratzon Chachamim it is right. If we violate, they have Shamayim to back it up. Not a good matchup.December 29, 2011 7:33 am at 7:33 am #839680
All initial efforts to establish Yeshivot and Frun communities in this country had met with failure. The success enjoyed by the Architects of Torah after the Shoah by their own account was simply not b’derech ha-teva. One does not willingly put themselves in a place of certain spiritual destruction.
But then again maybe I’m missing something. Maybe upon carefully examining the words of our prophets, sages, and the history of klal Yisroel we will discover that the churban bais rishon and sheini, expulsions, crusades, inquisition, and other mass tragedies we survived by the grace of Hashem could have been averted if only we had done a better job of ignoring the instructions of our Gedolim.December 29, 2011 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #839681
Not YWN, Not Project Yes, Not the Shumz , Not Yahoo , Not ESPN Not ANYTHING. NO INTERNET.
That’s right. No YWN, no yahoo, no ESPN. Where’s the catastrophe?
The harm the internet can and does do far far outweighs any benefit.December 29, 2011 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #839682WIYMember
As a whole bans are not effective. However they should be upheld in small measures. For the life of me I can’t understand how a parent can allow a kid to have a cellphone or ipod or ipad or computer with filtered internet! If adults fall in and can’t control their better horas to look at the wrong things you think a kid who is brimming with curiosity and raging hormones will control him/herself?
I really think that giving children unfiltered internet is a form of child abuse and extremely irresponsible.December 29, 2011 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #839683
@Flowers if you think the internet is so evil , what are you doing here?
I would accept internet bashing from my relatives because they dont have it except they would not bash the internet in front of me because they know I make my parnassah from it.
Because of the actions of Rabbi Zecharia ben Avkolos (The Godol at that time) the temple was destroyedDecember 29, 2011 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #839684mytakeMember
Well said. Some parents don’t care, and some are so busy proving to everybody that they’re not being “extreme” and that they’re “with it” and so they basically hand their kids a free pass to the biggest filth on earth. Shame on them.
Having said that, it’s important to find a way to make technology available in a kosher way. It doesn’t work otherwise, and in the battle of technology advances vs. the bans put up by the frum communities, teachnology WILL win. So every parent must find a way to make it work without compromising their children’t ruchniyus.
And BTW- those things that must be banned totally (social networking sites, phones and electronics that don’t accept filters)must be spoken about. You can’t just ban it without an explanation. It makes kids (especailly teens)too curious! Most teens who get into this kind of trouble, weren’t looking for trouble, they were simply curious to see what all the hock against it was about. Explaining the spiritual/physical dangers involved can help-especially if you’re dealing with a sechel’dige kid.December 29, 2011 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #839685
Zahavasdad wrote “Because of the actions of Rabbi Zecharia ben Avkolos (The Godol at that time) the temple was destroyed”
My point exactly. After all even the Senhedrin HaGadol could err (see first Mishnah in Horiyos). So what we learn from this is that since it is possible that Gedolim can err, especially errors of such great magnitude in matters of such importance to Klal Yisroel the logical solution is to just ignore them altogether. Come to think of it who says the ma’atikai ha shmuah got it right, and maybe the navi’im also misinterpreted their nevuah. So who knows what the truth is anyway, it’s all relative. So everyone should just do what “feels right” and “makes sense”. Let’s just go back to the drawing board and set up a society based on the enduring, timeless values of western democracy, humanism and rational self interest.December 29, 2011 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #839686
Zdad: I use the internet because it’s my parnassa.
Let’s take the chain saw example. This is the difference in danger to a person who has no clue that it’s dangerous, to one who knows good and well it’s dangerous. Such a person takes precautions and care for himself and those around him. Pretty much everyone who actually uses a chainsaw knows it’s dangerous. A child or low IQ person may injure themself because they don’t understand the danger, however, most people know the danger and won’t use it if they can’t handle it. (Like me, I would be scared to use it). And those who don’t realize the danger are much more likely to get seriously injured from it. While those who know the danger has much less chance of getting injured either by not using it or using it with caution.
Compare & contrast that to the internet. People don’t know how dangerous it is. Let’s take you for example. You think there’s nothing dangerous about it, and don’t tell me it’s because you need it for parnassa. That may be true (or not), but you have no awareness of the danger since you disparage & ridicule those who think it has terrible potential.
Not to mention those that have fallen in, many don’t even realize they have fallen in. There are those who have fallen in and can’t climb out. And there are those who have fallen in that are working very hard to climb out.
Just because I use the net, doesn’t mean I don’t understand and see that it has the potential to ruin peoples lives. And if one MUST use it, they should understand the dangers and take precautions. And that it’s definitely better not to use it at all.December 29, 2011 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #839687
(Continued from my previous post)
Or maybe the above is just a very krum hashkafa taken to its logical end.
Thanks to the abundant mercy of the Ribbono Shel Olam the Da’as Torah of R’ Yochanan Ben Zakai and the Sages of Yavneh preserved the continuity of the Torah and the survival of Am Yisroel. Much like the great Torah Leaders in the generation of the Shoah succeeded to fan a mighty flame of Torah from ashes and burning embers.
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