Are masks Risk free?
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October 30, 2020 9:37 am at 9:37 am #1915243SRivkaParticipant
Masks are dangerous because they cause terrible machlokes and Shalom is the kli which brings brocha which we need so desperately. They are also dangerous because they make people think that OTHER people hold the key to their health. AND they are dangerous because they prevent people from seeking out other preventive ideas that build immunity and protect them better. People rely on the masks and go places and do things when NO ONE including Dr. Fauci and CDC said that masks protect you fully from COVID.
Masks are helpful for schools, shuls and business so that the government visibly sees that we are doing something to prevent COVID so they won’t shut us down, whether we believe in them or not. Masks are helpful in places where they are mandated to prevent a chilul Hashem so the Non-Jews don’t point fingers at us for being different and spreading disease.
Do Masks really help against COVID? You decide for yourself, but unless you’ve done thorough research, you likely are just following what you heard, may be wearing them for anxiety and may not have hard facts to base your opinion on. Since there have been NO studies that masks work against viruses from before March 2020, it pays to look into WHY that would be, before getting upset at others.
Here’s a piece of information sent to me that’s worthy to look into and verify:
The blue typical mask [those disposal ones people wear]… contain Teflon and other chemicals. … 1. Masks are “sterilized” with Ethylene Oxide — a known carcinogen. Many teachers in various school boards have been experiencing significant symptoms as a direct result of the effects of this chemical. 2. The masks contain (not sprayed with) PTFE which makes up Teflon along with other chemicals. I found and have posted the US patent to allow manufacturers to use PTFE as a filter in commercial masks… “breathing these for extended periods can lead to lung cancer.”
P.S. IF you do find valid studies, especially from before March that prove that masks protect well from viruses (not just some droplets), please forward them to me. I would really like to see them.
Hoping this doesn’t cause more machlokes.October 30, 2020 9:53 am at 9:53 am #1915258
Common sense says that masks help prevent the spread of the virus. Granted, common sense may very well be incorrect here, but most people will follow their common sense, especially in a case where there are such strong opinions on either side.
So if you think you can try to convince people not to wear masks while not causing more machlokes, you’re in for a big disappointment.
P.S. Your point #1 is simply not true for new masks, look it up. Also doctors have been wearing masks for many years. Why haven’t you said anything until now?October 30, 2020 10:42 am at 10:42 am #1915264GadolhadorahParticipant
Masks are not a “cure”, don’t prevent all viral transmission but they have been shown by multiple studies cited here by several CR posters to REDUCE the rate and risk of transmission, especially with respect to the aged and vulnerable population. Until we have widespread vaccines later next year, masks are among the tools we have to facilitate reopening of schools and businesses. There are no magic “cures” and the virus itself will not magically “just disappear”. Its crazy we are still having this debate but for having it become one of several proxies for the larger political polarization sweeping the country (e.g. the MAGA rally yesterday in Tampa where Trump mumbled something about “i’ve always been ok with masks” while the crowd a few feet behind him were told that “masks are optional” and virtually all were maskless)October 30, 2020 10:42 am at 10:42 am #1915265Reb EliezerParticipant
You are mekayem the mitzva of love your fellow men like yourself as masks help others not yourself. If everyone would be wearing a mask, you would not need one.October 30, 2020 10:48 am at 10:48 am #1915268Reb EliezerParticipant
The more risk you take, the more you get rewarded for the mitzva. Lefum tzare agre.October 30, 2020 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1915281GadolhadorahParticipant
“The more risk you take, the more you get rewarded for the mitzva”
Assuming you are taking risks l’shem mitzvah. Taking the risks inherent in voting for a political candidate whose behavior is contrary to most of our values and priorities will likely not get me the s’char of a bigger chelek of olam haboh and likely will have a contrarian outcomeOctober 30, 2020 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #19152902scentsParticipant
Are masks risk-free?
No! Especially if you try to swallow them and they get stuck in your airway.October 30, 2020 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #1915289
Oh I am SOO glad GH dragged trump into this conversation. I was almost hopeful we could talk about something else.November 1, 2020 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1915725
Sorry, we don’t post external links. Maybe you can name the article for a google search -29
Here is article looking at the efficacy of surgical vs N95 masks well before Covid. There are many medical articles before March 2020 showing the efficacy of masks against aerosol pathogens.
As someone commented above, doctors have been wearing masks for over a hundred years. In fact, during the Spanish flu, everyone wore cloth masks and they were deemed effective.
The WHO and CDC were against masks in the beginning of covid as they were worried about having enough for Healthcare workers. Pls think of others and social distance and wear a mask properly over your mouth and nose. Use a non disposable one and wash every night with soap and water. Stay safe and be wellNovember 1, 2020 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1915742
As you can see I wasn’t able to post a link to a medical article from 2007 post SARS. Just do a search and there are many on the efficacy of wearing masks.November 1, 2020 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1915823
Are you really interested in an answer? It seems to me you have already made up your mind.
If correctly utilized, contemporary respiratory protection means a person will not get infected unless they want to. Period. Indeed, people dealing with the deadliest viruses in biology labs do not get sick. And if masks involved a risk, manufacturers would have been sued out of existence long since. There are a lot of surgeons and they all have an attorney.
If you would like to know how to choose respiratory protection and how to use it properly, there are many resources, ranging from manufacturers’ websites to government agencies’ informative material and regulations (you can pick any government and country you can think of, and they all say the same thing). Or you can post your questions and myself and others will take the time to answer. However it seems to me you already have made up your mind, and I can’t help with that.
With regards to your question about scientific works, you can pick up any aerobiology book printed before 2020 and you will find all the information you are seeking, complete with references to research articles that are not allowed to be posted here.November 2, 2020 9:26 am at 9:26 am #1915954WolfishMusingsParticipant
Nothing in life is risk-free.
The WolfNovember 2, 2020 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #1916097
SRivka makes some very good points. This is the way the public health propaganda works–they convince everyone that you need to do something to protect OTHERS, and then anyone who doesn’t want to comply is selfish. It’s brilliant, really. The bottom line is that the mountains of evidence that everyone talks about don’t exist, that masks being common sense is very arguable (what if I think common sense is that you shouldn’t be re-breathing your carbon dioxide?), and the tired argument that doctors use it in hospitals fails when you understand that doctors have to receive training on how to properly use their masks, and that operating rooms are oxygenated to provide extra oxygen for those wearing masks for prolonged periods of time.November 2, 2020 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1916138
SRivka and chan56. There is a great article with a very informative interactive display in the New York Times today. You can Google it. The research was done by Joseph Allen from the Harvard School of Public Health. He’s been involved in making buildings more healthy.
As a former health care provider, OR’s aren’t injected with extra oxygen. Everyone should try to do their part. If you don’t want to wear a mask, don’t, but please think about others when you go out. You wouldn’t want you or your family to get sick, why disregards the health of others. With thousands of people sick or dead across the world, there isn’t some mass conspiracy from the world’s governments.
By the way, there has been hundreds of yiddishe folk who unfortunately have been taken this year. Why not do your part. Properly fitted masks reduce the number of particles breathed in / out, protecting you and the others around.
SRivka, if you have the ability to post on YW, you have the ability to search Google for the tons of medical research worldwide post SARS on wearing masks with an aerosolized pathogen.
Do yourself and others a favour, Google the pictures of Spanish Flu and everyone wore masks.
Lastly, rebreathing CO2 has been studied as well and it’s findings show that it’s not an issue. Even with a well-fitted mask would allow CO2 to leave but keep most of the particles in. Please, do some research. Wear a mask properly (that includes over your nose), social distance and at home, put your humidifiers on to help with covid and flu…Hatzlacha and oh, pls daven for all the sick yidden at home and in hospital. I should let you know, that I know a 3 year old who tested positive for covid and was rushed to hospital this past shabbos. Lets all do our part!!!November 2, 2020 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #1916156
I have researched the post-SARS articles and none of them show that healthy people in a non-hospital environment should be wearing masks. I could not find the NY Times article you referenced but I think it’s fair to say that the Times is not an unbiased party here, so let’s see real evidence, not rhetoric.
As for operating rooms not being oxygenated, please check your facts. Operating rooms are in fact fire hazards because of the extra oxygen.
I don’t know how anyone in their right mind could say that re-breathing CO2 is not an issue. Remember, mask wearing is very political.
Of course we don’t want numbers to go up, and of course we are all davening for the cholim, but that doesn’t mean that masks are effective or healthy for the wearer. And as for the long-term wearing of masks for children–it’s plain and simple child abuse. And that’s not okay for the vague notion of “it’s probably better than nothing.”November 2, 2020 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1916183
I dont live in the US. Its not policitical here, and health should never be. Pls don’t make this a political issue. I wish you and your family a lots of hatzlacha and bracha especially in health.November 2, 2020 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #1916194
By the way, as someone not from the US, I find this very interesting. Harvard and Yale schools of Public Health, the federal govt and state and local govts, public health offices all around, including non American public health offices and organizations like Hatzolah, Magen David Adom all recommend distancing and wearing masks. Rabbonim even recommend masks, the OU and the RCA for example demanded masks on shofars this RH. Why is it a Trump vs Biden thing? If all the organizations around, both Jewish and Non Jewish are recommending the same thing, how and why is this political? All the bestNovember 2, 2020 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1916213
@chan56 The NY Times article @Effi references is titled “Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How” Google that phrase and the interactive article is the first hit.
I don’t know about operating rooms, but dentists, ObGyns and many other doctors in non-surgical settings wear masks for hours on end without special training or oxygenation.
Can you point to some research that shows the damages that wearing masks does? People on here keep referencing it, but I have a hard time finding anything other than shadey YouTube videos. I am very interested in this topic and what the results of the studies are. My shul enforced mask wearing the entire Yom Kippur and there were people from ages 12 to 75 who davened (while fasting!) Shacharis through Mussaf for close to four hours straight wearing a mask the entire time. I wonder what health issues they encountered while doing that and whether I should tell them to go see a doctor to check for low oxygenated blood.November 2, 2020 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #1916220bk613Participant
“As for operating rooms not being oxygenated, please check your facts. Operating rooms are in fact fire hazards because of the extra oxygen.”
Operating rooms have a higher air pressure than surrounding rooms. This is so that when the OR door is opened potentially contaminated air doesn’t flow into the clean operating room. The level of oxygen (oxygen concentration) remains the same.
The only oxygen that is “pumped in” is whatever is being provided to the patient to assist their breathing during surgery and yes, this oxygen is a potential fire hazard as are other things like surgical drapes.
If the entire OR was infused with extra oxygen as some are claiming, OR fires would be happening on a daily basis as sparks are a frequent occurrence in surgery.November 3, 2020 11:13 am at 11:13 am #1916356
I saw this article in the Times but could not believe that this was the article being referred to since it proves the point that masks CANNOT work to stop a virus. If only a percentage of the particles are being trapped by the fibers, but not all, that would be enough to infect another person. Remember, this is a highly contagious disease, which means that even one virus-containing droplet would be enough. (If it’s not that contagious, we certainly don’t need masks.) Then, the argument that the other person’s mask will serve as further protection is completely invalid, when you remember that as untrained lay people we all touch our masks, our faces, our eyes–so any viral material on the next person’s mask is actually a vector for germ spreading.
But the bottom line is that it’s all very hypothetical–what we do not have is evidence that masking the entire population, with the negative effects that they have (for example, see the article “Mask Fatigue Hits America: Workers Cite Headaches, Anxiety” and the journal article “Headaches and the N95 face-mask amongst healthcare providers”) has any real benefit in preventing the virus from spreading. So to go around telling people “it’s pikuach nefesh, how could you not wear a mask” is just wrong. Wearing a mask has not been proven to save even one life. (If someone has such proof, please let me know.)
The fact that all the departments of health etc etc are all backing the wearing of masks is really not relevant, as that’s what happens in the current climate of scientific censorship–the voice of industry is very powerful and that’s what you’re going to hear over and over. Propaganda is a very powerful tool–repeat something enough times and it becomes true.
And remember this from the great Fauci himself: When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make you feel better and it might even stop a droplet but it doesn’t provide the perfect protection people think it does and might even have unintended consequences because people touch their masks, fiddle with their masks..
He then lamely retracted and said, oh yeah, that was because we didn’t have enough masks–so he admits to being a liar, except as with all liars, you can’t really trust them on when they’re lying.
If you feel protected by a mask, by all means, wear one. Just remember to take “breathing breaks” (?!?–I thought we are getting enough oxygen) and stay away from those who choose not to wear one if you’re nervous. But don’t tell me to do something that makes me feel anxious and gasping for breath when there is no strong evidence backing you.November 3, 2020 11:17 am at 11:17 am #1916380
it proves the point that masks CANNOT work to stop a virus. If only a percentage of the particles are being trapped by the fibers, but not all, that would be enough to infect another person.
That’s one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. Just because something isn’t 100% effective doesn’t mean it’s not effective at all.November 3, 2020 11:36 am at 11:36 am #1916388
For anyone who wants to understand: yes, a virus is smaller than the gaps in a N95 or N99 mask (although it is usually attached to something larger, such as dust). The way they get blocked is because the synthetic fibers in the mask are deliberately electrically charged during the manufacturing process and will attract and trap it.
A well-fitted N95 mask will filter out at least 95%, however, if someone wears it and spends time in a room with ten people who all are positive and each one of them is spreading about 150 virus particles with every breath of theirs (or more if they speak), the N95 will help but not a lot. However, the mask is not defective, it was incorrectly used!
As for those who don’t mind catching the virus and don’t mind spreading it to others and possibly harming them, just stay far away from me and my family.November 3, 2020 11:36 am at 11:36 am #1916384
So Meno, if only half of the droplets of my cough get on you, does that mean that you only get half of a covid infection?
But the bottom line is that the evidence is far from conclusive that mask wearing in the general population has any effect on the spread of the virus. And without strong evidence, policies can’t be forced on other people. So going back to the original post, this is just another machlokes that prevents us from reaching our spiritual potential. If we can agree to disagree, it would be far healthier for everyone.November 3, 2020 11:41 am at 11:41 am #1916392
So Meno, if only half of the droplets of my cough get on you, does that mean that you only get half of a covid infection?
No, it means I have a smaller chance of getting a covid infection. And if you also stay 6 feet away from me, I have an even smaller chance. And if you are also take other precautions to avoid getting sick, such as washing your hands, then I have an even smaller chance. Get it?November 3, 2020 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1916395
A smaller chance of getting an infection? Maybe, maybe not. Again, it’s simply not supported by science. (I refer you back to some of my earlier comments about the possibility of masks becoming reservoirs of viral material and aiding in infection via surfaces.)
When there’s really good science showing that the benefit of wearing a mask outweighs the risk, I will voluntarily put one on. Until that time, as long as I’m not exhibiting symptoms (in which case I will stay home), I will feel free to continue the normal human interactions that are so vital to our emotional and mental health.November 3, 2020 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1916396
As for the effect of the widespread use of masks in the general population, anyone can do their own elementary-school math, or can look up the study RESTART-19 in Germany, or more empirically, compare with China.November 3, 2020 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #1916397
@chan56 I understand that you and others are having a lot of difficulty with masks. It really is hard wearing fabric over your mouth and nose for hours on end. But please please understand the importance of it. It’s not some “Democrat conspiracy”, there really is value in wearing a mask. Even if you can save one life, isn’t that worth the hours of discomfort? And if the discomfort is too much, maybe don’t go out.
The number one misconception about masks is probably that it’s meant to keep you safe. No. It helps, but the reason wearing a mask is important is that it keeps other people safe. A person with COVID-19 is much less likely to infect others if the sick person has a mask on.
I don’t think we read the same article. Please look for the article titled “Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How”. It makes a very clear point that I’ll explain. COVID-19 travels in droplets that come mostly from people’s mouth and nose. Studies have shown that almost all COVID-19 infections were caused from breathing in droplets. If someone wears a mask, they expel something like 95% less droplets and they don’t travel as far. You are right. It’s not 100% effective, but it’s 95% effective. Meaning, if there’s a sick person in a crowded room without a mask, it’s almost certain that multiple people will be infected. But if they were wearing a mask, they will infect 95% less people.
There was little data in March and April but since then we’ve Baruch Hashem come a long way. Nature.com has an article titled “Face masks: what the data say” which collects a lot of the various studies that show the effectiveness of masks in prevented COVID-19 from spreading.
Without any precautions, the virus has what’s called an infection rate of 3. Which means that everyone infects on average three people. (by comparison, a flu has an infection rate of 1.7). Those three people infect three more and so on and so forth. After a week there is a possibility of thousands of infections. We saw that in April where one man at a Bas Mitzvah managed to cause a massive outbreak in New York City.
But with precautions, such as masks and social distancing, we can bring that down to an infection rate of 1 or less. Meaning that if someone has COVID, they will infect an average of one person. After a week, instead of thousands there will be only seven new cases. So it’s not 100% effective, but it’s effective enough.
People not wearing masks make me anxious in the same way that people walking around with loaded guns and their fingers on the trigger make me anxious. It’s easier to ask people to wear masks than to ask people who care about COVID-19 to avoid the Corona Kofrim who don’t care about people getting sick and dying.November 3, 2020 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #1916405
@chan95 There is no scientific evidence that “viral buildup” when wearing a mask is a thing. I did some research and found that the origin of the idea is from an anti-Semitic forum on InfoWars.com.
I read something online that I think should resonate with everyone.
All we had to do to prevent the spread of COVID-19 was act like mentchen to everyone. It seems we’ve failed at that.
Masks work. Please wear one.November 3, 2020 12:25 pm at 12:25 pm #1916406
A smaller chance of getting an infection? Maybe, maybe not. Again, it’s simply not supported by science.
The idea that I have a smaller chance of getting sick if there are fewer particles in the air isn’t supported by science? Don’t the particles have to get into my body to get me sick? Shouldn’t fewer particles in the air mean a smaller probability of one making its way into my body?November 3, 2020 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1916427The little I knowParticipant
I get it. The jury is out on masks. Help? Maybe. Hurt, probably not. So, saichel would say to use them. Even if clinically useless, it will keep the dogs (the political enforcers) at bay.
But there is something missing from all this. We have been believing that if not for masks, things “would have been” worse. That’s not scientific, and is something we only believe. It might be rational, but it does not become fact. Why is this relevant? Here’s my hypothesis. So many of the cases of infections have been good at social distancing, and wore masks. How did they contract Covid-19? I believe there are other means of transmission, besides the droplets. Without having identified anything yet, there must be alternative explanations for so many cases who have been quarantined, distanced, and masked.
So debate the mask thing, and pasken in whichever direction you want. We are still missing so much data.November 3, 2020 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #1916429
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻November 3, 2020 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1916444
I’m starting to get frustrated with the amount of times I have to repeat this.
Wearing a mask is to protect others, not yourself
In almost every case where someone was careful and got infected, they received the virus from someone who was not. You can wear a mask all day long, but if someone with COVID sneezes on you, it’s goodbye Bsamim! Why you ask? Because there’s only minimal protection from wearing a mask. What it does is protect others from getting the virus from a masked person.
There is a lot scientific validity to “It could have been much worse”. In shuls in my community where they enforced mask wearing, there were almost no cases of transmission within the shul. In those that didn’t, almost everyone got the virus at some point. That’s just anecdotal. There is actual research that shows that places where people wore masks had much lower levels of viral transmission.
This isn’t a case of “Elu v’Elu Divrei Elokim Chaim”. There are not two sides to the issue. Wear a mask for everyone’s sake. Please.November 3, 2020 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #1916455
Yserbius – I’m sorry you are frustrated for having to repeat yourself but why are you insisting you have to be taken at your word. I find it equally frustrating to keep hearing you go on with stats that are NOT corroborated by everyone. Especially when you disgustingly thrown in that anyone who doesn’t think like you doesn’t care if they kill people.
Much of what you are saying is true. And i went back to check on some of the points just to be sure. While much is true, this:
In almost every case where someone was careful and got infected, they received the virus from someone who was not.
is just not true. I read it, i have FIRST HAND observation and third hand stories. It’s false. So please continue advocating for masks, please do. But please, STOP embellishing the facts with untruths like that.November 3, 2020 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1916466
If masks were effective, there should be no coronavirus in Japan where they routinely mask. However, that’s not the case–cases have been rising steadily.
Again, it’s the same tired argument–masks MUST be somewhat effective. But what if they’re not? Again, I will repeat–there is a dearth of science, which makes the practice highly experimental. And what if there is collateral damage by masking the entire population? My friend has a baby who was born prematurely and has spent the last six months in the NICU. This baby has never seen a human face. This is scary. People, please wake up–the powers that be want to convince you that it makes sense to keep on wearing masks–until when? When does the madness stop? When all viruses are eliminated from this world?
I will end with a quote from Hitler yemach shmo:
What luck for rulers that men do not think.
Kol tuv, I will leave this discussion.November 3, 2020 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1916484
If masks were effective, there should be no coronavirus in Japan
And if seatbelts were effective, no one should ever die in a car accident, right?November 3, 2020 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1916488
@syag-lchochma When did I ever say “people who don’t think like me are killing people”?! I want line and verse and I will retract it immediately!
But I will say this and stand by it: People that have derided social distancing and masking, making big simchas, underground minyanim, and ignored the advice and pleas of our Rabbonim have killed people and are still doing so today. That’s not “my thinking”. That’s basic derech eretz and common sense.
Do people get sick even when wearing masks or keeping socially distant? Of course they do, I never denied that! But the masks and social distancing have been proven by a multitude of studies to drastically reduce the rate of infection. You keep harping on those miniscule number of cases where masks didn’t work as if that proves something. You’re acting as if something that is 95% effective isn’t effective at all because of that 5%.
@chan56 You cannot ignore the scientific articles I posted then claim “there’s a dearth of science”. They science is there. You’re just choosing to not look at it. You’re no different than a flat-earther in that sense. Sorry if I’m being harsh right now, but I have little regard for people who throw out Nazi comparisons to everything that makes them a little uncomfortable. Did Dr. Fauci line up Yidden and execute them? Did Joe Biden encourage “No Dogs Or Jews Allowed” signs?November 3, 2020 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1916503
I am very sorry about the suffering of your friend’s preemie. I will not comment further about the pain of premature babies, because some already know and the rest don’t need to.
However please do not insult us. You are too lazy to wear a mask and it bothers you and makes you feel ridiculous in your own eyes. So you don’t. You also probably voted for the candidate who caters to non-mask-wearers without even considering if he furthers your interests or he doesn’t. Have you even taken out a calculator and figured out which candidate is proposing the tax scheme most convenient to you?
Your country (you feel United Statesian, don’t you? You don’t feel you are a Yid and our enemy Esav will soon fall?) is in a sad state and whoever is the next President will go down in history books, and not in a desirable way. Maybe that’s why Biden did his best not to be elected. I understand, it’s not easy for you.
In order to put up your attitude, you are bringing up something totally unrelated: in NICU all people wear masks, whether there is covid-19 or not. You also do not refrain from suggesting that a major problem of preemies are mask-wearing people. Preemies whose every single interaction with a human being means added pain on top of unbearable pain, who may or may not see (oxygen-induced retinopathy and sometimes not possible to address it timely).Yet you are concerned about their loving parents and NICU staff wearing a mask, which anyway, they always do.
If you can’t have any empathy towards a tiny baby barely visible among the bundle of plumbing and machinery and who is suffering more than anyone under torture (the latter is aware that they eventually will lose consciousness or die) I don’t expect you to have empathy for anyone else.
Finally, may I say there is no dearth of science. There is a dearth of intelligent people.November 3, 2020 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1916540
Rabosei, the very first comment mentioned machlokes. Its not worth continuing this conversation. Does Hashem want us to be fighting? Nope. So let’s all move on. Its unfortunate we can’t agree but that’s the Jewish way. Why do we say Aizohu Mekoman in the morning? Chaszal say that it’s the perek were there are machlokes. Why didn’t Hashem destroy the dor haflagah? They wanted to attack Hashem. The reason being was that they were at the very least unified and Hashem loves unity. Let’s be better. Let’s think of others, vehavta leraiacha kamocha and move on.
Where I live, masks are mandatory when social distancing can’t be maintained. Stay away from those who don’t live like you. Lets move on and end this argument and hopefully Hashem will end this mageifahNovember 3, 2020 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #1916562
Effi >>Lets move on and end this argument and hopefully Hashem will end this mageifah
this is a good point. A couple of concerns:
1) we should be concerned about our fellow Jews who are putting themselves and others around them in danger. Maybe shouting will not help, but we need some way to explain things.Buy an ad in Yated?
2) How can we expect Hashem to end a magefah if we are not learning lessons from it?November 3, 2020 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1916592
@Effi I wish I wish! The problem is, like I’ve said before, that you’re viewing this as a machlokes where there are two legitimate sides. This is as much of a machlokes as the frum/Reform “machlokes”. There are some people who are making massive and grave errors and it is a responsibility of klal Yisroel to educate them.November 3, 2020 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1916634
Here you are…
“the Corona Kofrim who don’t care about people getting sick and dying.”
“You’re acting as if something that is 95% effective isn’t effective at all because of that 5%.”
Because it’s not 95%. I wish it was but it’s not.November 4, 2020 1:52 am at 1:52 am #1916657
Syag> Because it’s not 95%. I wish it was but it’s not.
an important number is not for one person, but the public health effect
surgical mask protection may be 50% for both sides, but this may decrease transmission rate R_t
from, say, 1.1 to 0.9. That is a difference between increasing and decreasing pandemic. As Rambam says, you should think that the world is 50-50 and it is up to you…November 4, 2020 1:54 am at 1:54 am #1916662
@syag-lchochma Ah I see now my mistake. I take it back. When I refer to “Corona Kofrim” I refer to people who actively deny that COVID-19 is an actual issue. Those people who claim it’s “just a flu” or something similar and refuse to do anything to mitigate any risk or damages that they may cause, no matter how small.
It actually is pretty close to 95%. There are other methods of transmission, sure, like by touch. But the overwhelming vast majority of people who got COVID got it from someone who they were in close proximity with inside and wasn’t wearing a mask. I made it a habit to ask people how they got it. “I talked to a guy outside of shul and we took our masks off. He came back from a Chasuna where no one was wearing a mask” “I got it from my son who got it from a friend” “I was in a Yeshiva dorm” “A shiva” etc.
How did the exceptions that you know about catch it?November 4, 2020 2:07 am at 2:07 am #1916688
When I refer to “Corona Kofrim” I refer to people who actively deny that COVID-19 is an actual issue. Those people who claim it’s “just a flu” or something similar and refuse to do anything to mitigate any risk or damages that they may cause, no matter how small
Got it. Thanks for explaining
It actually is pretty close to 95%.
I wish it was, less people would be getting sick. But unfortunately it’s not.
How did the exceptions that you know about catch it?
They weren’t exceptions. This is the reality of the virus.November 4, 2020 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1916888
this sounds like an academic discussion. masks help on average, whether 50 or 90%, still makes sense to wear. Do you estimate how risky your trip is before buckling a seatbelt?November 4, 2020 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #1916901
I am insist on seat belts for my passengers, and for my children when they are in other people’s cars. Always. My beef to these masks or die people is not about the masks, it’s about the way they treat other people who aren’t doing what they think needs to be done. Or rather who aren’t doing what should be done, to the extent that they feel it should be carried out. When my neighbor started driving my child to school and I found out they don’t buckle in their 5 year old I had a choice to pull my kid out of carpool quietly, or to tell my children that this neighbor is a murderer and I don’t want to put my child in danger as he has put his own children. I consider the first choice to be what God wants from us. I’m asking these people to do the same with the difficult people in their lives.November 8, 2020 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1917969
Should we wait for GH, Amil Zola, and Reb E, Charlie et al to display some integrity and condemn the superspreader victory gatherings, or do we expect them to either deny they exist, or pretend that covid doesn’t spread among democratic gatherings?
HmmmNovember 8, 2020 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1917972
This lack of condemnation from the winning team, by the way, throws ALL their mask mandate credibility in the garbage. They just lost their ability to convince anyone who doesn’t believe they work (which im not saying is correct) that lives depend on it. What a wasted opportunityNovember 9, 2020 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #1918195emes nisht shekerParticipant
Humans by nature are hypocrites and not perfectly consistent. The greatest hypocrisy is calling out people for not being perfect as if that is some massive flaw that undermines all their credibility. If that is your standard you might as well write off every person, including yourself, you respected in your life.November 9, 2020 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1918284
“Should we wait for GH, Amil Zola, and Reb E, Charlie et al to display some integrity and condemn the superspreader victory gatherings, or do we expect them to either deny they exist, or pretend that covid doesn’t spread among democratic gatherings?
Yup. I figured….
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