Are sfardim from the 10 shvatim

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  • #1743872

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    YO keeps on posting threads about “how sfardim are better/ closer to the mesorah” why does he feel a need to do this?

    I think the reason might be because as the passuk says that when משיח comes “Yehuda won’t oppress Ephraim, and Ephraim won’t be jealous of Yehuda”

    #1744006

    Joseph
    Participant

    Since when are there only 10 shevatim?

    #1744007

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Actually I heard from a Choshuv Rav that Sefardim are from Yehuda and A are from Epharim

    #1744012

    akuperma
    Participant

    The split between Sefardim and Ashkenazim occured well after the the 10 shvatim went missing.

    #1744037

    Joseph
    Participant

    YO: You heard that from Avi Weiss at the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale?

    #1744049

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Not sure who or what that is. I heard from a big Talmid Chochom and Banshak.

    #1744075

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Rav Menashe Ben Yisroel, of Portugeese descent, who was Rav in Amsterdam in the mid 17th century, addressed the “10 lost shvatim” in a letter, published under the title “Mikveh Yisroel” in response to those who felt the recently discovered Inca Indians were descendents of the 10 shvatim.

    If people believed the Inca indians were descended of the 10 shvatim, I guess any and all wild theories are on the table.

    #1744057

    kollelman
    Participant

    @Yabia Omer, I never heard that. Interesting.
    Many Sfardim can trace themselves back directly to David Hamelech.

    #1744073

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Not sure who or what that is. I heard from a big Talmid Chochom and Banshak.”
    If you hold your statement to be true, and hold that your Rav is universally accepted as a Talmid Chochom, then why not use his name?

    Either, he is, as we suspect, not really a choshuve Rov. Or, he is, and you’re knowingly misrepresenting his words.

    #1744163

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Joe,

    The עשרת שבטים in English is 10 shevatim for (the ones that split off from yehuda)

    #1744108

    besalel
    Participant

    These Yabia Omer v Joseph/Ashkenazim threads are very entertaining but probably a terrible chillul hashem and gross violation of sinas chinum. For all of the differences, it still amazes me how much we are the same despite having been separated from one another for so long.

    #1744153

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Interesting so this “chashuva Rav” is arguing on the passuk because the passuk explicitly states jealousy (and believe me Ashkenazim aren’t jealous of sfardim it actually seems like the opposite based on your threads)

    😜😜😜

    #1744191

    coffee,
    isn’t difficult
    he has a major ax to grind
    Rationalize lower level of observance And propagandize

    YO,
    Swings & misses again
    There are a couple of sources That German Jews are from the shevet Binyamin
    cf. Migaleh Amukos

    #1744059

    Joseph
    Participant

    Some claim Weiss is a T.C.

    #1744212

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Joe,

    Some claim yoshke is Hashem

    #1744210

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “For all of the differences, it still amazes me how much we are the same”
    Especially in this case, because they’re both Ashkenazim.

    “and believe me Ashkenazim aren’t jealous of sfardim it actually seems like the opposite based on your threads”
    YO is Ashkenaz though. He seems jealous of Sphardim to me.

    #1744217

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Neville,

    Come again?

    #1744224

    charliehall
    Participant

    I am an Ashkenaz who is jealous of Sfardim because their food tastes better!

    #1744232

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I don’t think the passuk is talking about jealousy due to food Charlie

    It’s talking about important things

    #1744251

    beisyosef
    Participant

    I honestly think this is a seriously stupid thread, but here’s my thoughts; both sides have what to be jealous of each other if they wanted to be. Ashkenazim have been around in the tri-state area longer than sefardim and have established a much better educational system (still needs lots of help, but Darchei in far Rockaway is a heck of an institution) along with other great things. While Ashkenazim can be jealous of sefardim for the fact that they are a much closer knit community which basically acts like a large family, they are typically more chilled when it comes to stupid societal rules (i.e. only wearing white shirts, judging you on your yiddishkeit if you live too lavishly, etc.), And of course Deal in the summer is something to be jealous of lol. But what’s the point in being jealous? I find it better to just try and copy your peers if you see they did something and found success in it. End rant.

    #1744269

    chaim_baruch
    Participant

    If by Sfardim you mean Jews of Spain and not Eidot HaMizrach. The largest of communities of Sfardim and Ashkenazim probably reached Spain, Portugal, France and Germany well over 1100 years ago. However, there were Jews in Worms, Germany prior to Bait Sheni (would they be considered AshKenazim, I doubt it) and of course in those in E”Y, and eventually in Bavel, Persia, Yeman, Ethiopia, etc. after the first churban. They’re decedents are Eidot HaMizrach, unless they made their way to Europe and joined existing communities or founded new ones. Also many communities in Germany, Poland, etc. accepted refugees from Spain during the inquisition. Those former Sefardim, obviously took on their brethren’s customs in their new homes. So many Ashkenazim of today were actually Sefardim some 530 years ago.

    #1744270

    jdb
    Participant

    Chevra, Sefardim are called Sefardim because they remained in the mediteranean basin after the Spanish Inquisition and subsequent expulsion (sefard is spain). Some moved northward, joining the communities of France/Germany and became known as Ashkenazim.

    The 10 shevatim split off over a thousand years earlier.

    This thread is rediculous.

    #1744341

    Milhouse
    Participant

    No, because the “10 shevatim” are a myth. The gemara states as a matter of halacha that they don’t exist, and gives only three possibilities for what happened to them:

    (1) Their exile only lasted a decade or two, until Yirmiyahu went to Chalach and Chavor and brought them back. If this is so, then most of us are probably descended from one or another of them.

    (2) The first generation that was exiled had no children and died out. The only surviving members of those shevatim were those who were living in Yehuda at the time, or who found refuge there, and thus never went into exile with the rest of their tribes. Some of us are descended from them.

    (3) The Sanhedrin, using the power the Torah gave it, declared them to be goyim. They can never come back. Again, the only Jewish members of those tribes are the descendants of those who never went into exile.

    #1744450

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Milhouse

    Can you please explain the passuk according to you

    #1744384

    Joseph
    Participant

    Milhouse, how do you account for the stories regarding the Sambatyon?

    #1744502

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    ” Ashkenazim have been around in the tri-state area longer”
    Actually no. That’s one point where I actually will bring down a proof from that shul we discussed on the other thread. The Sphardim were in NY first, back when it was New Amsterdam. Admittedly, according to wikipedia (not saying it’s for sure accurate), it was only about 200 Sphardim who would later be greeted by thousands and eventually millions of Ashkenazi immigrants.

    “they are typically more chilled when it comes to stupid societal rules”
    Have you considered that they just have different societal rules? From my understanding, Sphardi households, even the secular ones, are much more traditionalist than Ashkenazim in terms of the role of the woman and such. A lot of the points you bring are hashkafic, not minhagic. Yeshivish Sphardim are just as likely to be cooky about shirt color as anyone else.

    #1744506

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    I think everyone understands that the split of the 10 Tribes happened waaaay before Jews were categorized as A or S. I think the OP is just trying rile me up.

    #1744507

    MILHOUSE: Where are your sources? Especially #3??

    #1744584

    Milhouse
    Though in the original sources there was differences in opinion
    The preponderance of tradition Through the Ages with very few discrepancies is remarkably consistent
    That is they will eventually went into Exile they are still in Exile and they will eventually return

    #1744630

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Coffee Addict, what pasuk?

    Joseph, Sambatyon is a legend, and the tribes behind it are even more of a legend. At least Sambatyon is mentioned in the gemara. The idea that there are tribes behind it seems to come from the medieval fraud “Eldad Hadani”.

    More Chessed, it’s an explicit gemara in Yevamos.

    It is Time, there is no difference in opinion in the original sources. As I said, the gemara is hilchesa, not agadeta, so it is binding, and there is no contrary opinion expressed. The stories people have told each other through the ages are irrelevant when there’s an explicit hilchesa in the gemara against it.

    #1744618

    Joseph
    Participant

    YO: You’re contradicting your own earlier comment. First you shared your bubbe maaisa about S and A specifically being from different shvatim. Now you’re saying you don’t believe your own theory that someone told you.

    #1744754

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Coffee Addict, what passuk”

    Milhouse

    “Yehuda won’t oppress Ephraim, and Ephraim won’t be jealous of Yehuda”

    Joe

    Hook line and sinker

    #1744771

    ” there is no difference in opinion in the original sources”?

    There is an explicit Mishna for one

    #1744798

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Coffee Addict, what has that pasuk got to do with anything? How do you see in it any support for the myth of the “ten tribes” waiting out there somewhere for Moshiach to return them?

    #1744847

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Milhouse,

    I’m sorry I’m not being clear

    You stated

    “No, because the “10 shevatim” are a myth. The gemara states as a matter of halacha that they don’t exist, and gives only three possibilities for what happened to them:

    (1) Their exile only lasted a decade or two, until Yirmiyahu went to Chalach and Chavor and brought them back. If this is so, then most of us are probably descended from one or another of them.

    (2) The first generation that was exiled had no children and died out. The only surviving members of those shevatim were those who were living in Yehuda at the time, or who found refuge there, and thus never went into exile with the rest of their tribes. Some of us are descended from them.

    (3) The Sanhedrin, using the power the Torah gave it, declared them to be goyim. They can never come back. Again, the only Jewish members of those tribes are the descendants of those who never went into exile.“

    I never said they were lost I said that they’re from them (the passuk says Ephraim which connotation the 10 tribes, Ephraim was their leader)

    So what I assume you meant is that everyone married into everyone and there’s no “yehuda” or “Ephraim”

    So I asked what does the passuk mean when it says yehuda and Ephraim

    #1744861

    Milhouse
    Participant

    The term “the ten tribes” refers to the legend that the exiled tribes were lost, and will one day return. When someone uses the term that is what they mean. And the gemara says it’s a myth.

    The most obvious meaning of the posuk is that there will be no more tribal rivalry. Right now that has been fulfilled; our tribes (whether we have two or twelve) no longer have separate identities, so there can be no rivalry between them.

    However it’s also obvious that every Jew is descended in the direct male line either from one of the tribes, or from a ger. When Eliyohu comes he may well inform each of us of our yichus and we will know who we are. For those of us who are descended in the male line from the original Bnei Yisroel, he may also inform us exactly where our property is in Eretz Yisroel, that we inherited from our ancestors. So assuming that there remain at least some descendants of Efrayim, we may re-form the tribes. In that case, the posuk is promising us that the re-formed tribes will remain friends.

    Either way, the idea that Sefardim (or any community, such as Ethiopians) come from these “lost tribes” is not feasible.

    #1744933

    Joseph
    Participant

    Milhouse, where do you believe the Ethiopians shtam from? What do you think will happen at Moshiach to the descendents of female non-Jews who erroneously got mistaken for Jews and are now mixed into Klal Yisroel thinking they’re Jewish (and may even be Shomer Torah)? And what do you think will happen to descendents of Jews who hundreds of years ago or more got mistaken for goyim and all their thousands of descendents think they’re goyim?

    #1744936

    MDG
    Participant

    Actually I heard from a Choshuv Rav that Sefardim are from Yehuda and A are from Epharim

    The Chida says that Sephardim are from Yehuda, And Ashkanazim are from Binyamin. Hashem put Binyamins children in Europe because their ancestor never bowed in from of Esav (parashat Vayishlah). People of Binyamin are tougher people. They could withstand bnai Esav.

    #1745026

    Joseph
    Participant

    Can’t be since we know that Rashi and the Baalei Tosfos shtam ben acher ben from Dovid HaMeclech, hence Shevet Yehuda. We have the complete yichus brief from Dovid HaMelech through Rashi. And most Ashkenazim shtam from Rashi. Hence the Ashkenazim clearly and unambiguously shtam from and are Shevet Yehuda.

    #1745070

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    I have a Persian friend who can trace himself to Shevet Shimon. He claims many Yazdis can do the same (trace themselves to a shevet not from Yehuda. He also says many Bucharians can do the same.
    The pasuk clearly says the Aseres Hashvatim were exiled to Madai, which is Iran. It makes sense that when the Yiddin came to Madai during the Megillah, they reintegrated.

    #1745082

    Joseph
    Participant

    YRockstar: Yazdis? They are Kurdish and practice an offshoot of Islam.

    #1745098

    besalel
    Participant

    joseph: you are confusing yazidi people with the city in iran called yazd. two different things.

    #1745153

    GAON
    Participant

    Asides that the OP is just absurd..

    The very vast statement of “Sefardim is also ignoramus.

    There are many diff Sefardim each their own category.

    Some orig from Spain (hence the term Sefard) which bordered with Ashkanzi’m as well. Some were from Italy, Greece, Tunisia….
    Some were Persians, Iraqi’s – toshvim before the 2nd Bh”M…?

    Which ones are you referring to?

    Perhaps, you are confusing it more with Teymani’m..

    #1745296

    MDG
    Participant

    “And most Ashkenazim shtam from Rashi.”

    Any proof to that? Some yes, but most?

    #1745313

    Joseph
    Participant

    MDG: Aside from the proof that you refer to, it is also a clear genealogical fact that within an endagomy society such as the Ashkenazim, virtually everyone today will descend from all our predecessors/ancestors from 1,000 years ago.

    #1745327

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Joseph, there is no evidence or any reason to believe that the Ethiopians known as “Beta Israel” have any Jewish ancestry at all. Those who have become gerim in the last 40 years are of course Jews; the rest are not.

    It is completely obvious and not even slightly controversial that if someone discovers that his maternal line does not trace back to a Jewish woman then he is not Jewish, and if he wishes to be he must become a ger. However, what makes you think there are a significant number of such people? How exactly would “female non-Jews erroneously got mistaken for Jews”?

    It is also completely obvious and uncontroversial that there are many Jews in the world who have no idea that they are Jews, because their Jewish ancestor in the maternal line married out many generations ago, and that these people are 100% Jews, just like any of us. There were many many gerim in Roman times, most of whom eventually became Xians. Their female-line descendants are Jews. More recently, until 500 years ago the south of Italy was full of Jews; then Spain conquered it and brought in the inquisition, and suddenly there were no Jews. Many of the Jews fled, but most probably remained and became Xians. Also in Spain itself, the majority of Jews remained and became Xians. All of their female-line descendants are Jews. There is nobody who disputes this.

    When Eliyohu informs them of their yichus they will have to start keeping mitzvos, and will have to bring chato’os for the sins they did beshogeg. The gemoro says that a Jewish child who grew up not knowing that he is obligated to keep Shabbos must bring one chatos for all the Shabbosos that he violated, because they were all included in the same “he’elem”.

    we know that Rashi and the Baalei Tosfos shtam ben acher ben from Dovid HaMeclech, hence Shevet Yehuda.

    No, we don’t know that at all. We don’t even know that Rashi was descended from him at all (though it seems very likely), but we certainly don’t know that he was ben achar ben. (And of course nobody is ben achar ben from Rashi.)

    We have the complete yichus brief from Dovid HaMelech through Rashi.

    No, we don’t. No such document exists, and there is no reason to suppose one ever existed.

    YRST, I doubt your friend can actually trace himself to Shevet Shim’on. More likely he simply has a family tradition that they are from that shevet. Is that tradition authentic? Who can possibly know? It is certainly possible. And since one of the major opinions in the gemara is that the ten tribes’ exile only lasted a short time, after which they returned to Eretz Yisrael and then shortly thereafter went into Galus Bavel, there’s no reason to be surprised if a group of Jews from Shevet Shim’on settled in a certain place and their descendants still have a tradition about it. Of course this is not proof, and even it it’s true, over the course of 2500 years many other Jews would have moved to the same place and assimilated into their community, so someone whose family is from there now is not necessarily descended from the original settlers.

    #1745443

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “I think everyone understands that the split of the 10 Tribes happened waaaay before Jews were categorized as A or S. I think the OP is just trying rile me up.”

    That’s right I was doing it to rile you up because of all your stupid “sfardim are better than ashkenazim” posts and it did the desired effect

    I really don’t understand why people have to find a need to differentiate between different segments of yiddishkeit it brings to mind the marvelous middos machine’s “ahavas chinam” song

    Thanks to all who replied

    #1745441

    Joseph
    Participant

    Milhouse,

    “However, what makes you think there are a significant number of such people? How exactly would “female non-Jews erroneously got mistaken for Jews”?”

    Of course there aren’t a significant number. But over 2,000+ years there are going to be some. Another example might be a Jewish family adopted and never properly converted yet she thought she’s Jewish. Or a Jewish baby switched at birth with a gentile baby. (One such scenario was discovered 100 years later, recently.) And had children and grandchildren etc. all thinking they’re Jewish and intermarrying real Jews.

    What will happen to these Shomer Torah uMitzvos pseudo-Jews when Moshiach comes and all those generations now realize they’re goyim (who might have had children with actual Jews)?

    #1745538

    Milhouse
    Participant

    What will happen? What do you think should happen? Once they find out they are not Jewish they will have the same choice any non-Jew has: to remain non-Jewish or to become Jewish. Why would you imagine anything else?

    #1745607

    Joseph
    Participant

    Milhouse: Become Jewish after Moshiach arrives will be possible? If so every goy will suddenly sign up to Judaism after seeing the nisim from Moshiach.

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