Are sfardim from the 10 shvatim

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  • #1745608

    Grey matter
    Participant

    Mill house wis this gemoro in yevamos that you contsantly qoute

    #1745794

    Milhouse
    Participant

    First, even if the official botei din will not accept gerim, there will surely be private botei din that will, just as there were in the times of Dovid and Shlomo. But in the case of people who were already frum, and are therefore obviously committed to keeping mitzvos, why would the official botei din not accept them? It’s obvious that they will.

    #1745797

    Milhouse
    Participant

    It’s in the middle of the mesechta. Just search for “aseres hashevotim” or “chalach” or “chavor”.

    #1745936

    Joseph
    Participant

    Look how many Jews there were in past historical periods that we have records of, either from Tanach, Chazal or other sources. Based on any natural growth rate from those past numbers, today there should at least be hundreds of millions of Jews. Yet we only count a few million today (even with the unreligious.)

    #1745959

    bitultorah24-7
    Participant

    The Ramban in sefer Haguelah shaar aleph, and the rambam in Igeres Teiman (as well as Rashi, the Ibn Ezra and the Targum Yonason towards the end of Ocadiah are mashma as well) state that the sefardim are from Malchus Yehuda, and the Ashkenazim are from the aseret shevatim (note, based on the second time that we went up to build the Second Beis Hamikdash, approximately 11/42th of the olim of Yehudah were from the aseret shevatim. Iyin Hachalek and Sefer Ezra.

    #1745960

    shames
    Participant

    a maggid shiur of mine once told me that sefardim have a mesora they come from shevet yehuda.

    there is a little known vort from the chiddushei harim (or sfas emes – i don’t recall), who says a similar idea. it’s brought in siach sarfei kodesh, and there he says ashkenazim come from shevet binyamin and sefardim come from shevet yehuda.

    lmaiseh there has been so much intermarrying between sefardim and ashkenazim throughout the doros, that it’s impossible nowadays to say for a fact that a particular person comes from a particular shevet, just because they’re sefardi or ashkenazi.

    #1745989

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Millhouse:
    Do you have a contemporary source, or even later-than-gemara source to back up what you’re saying? I’m not fully convinced it’s not aggadeta just because you keep saying so.

    Also, while Ethiopians for sure need geirus, from my understanding the standard psak is that they’re safek Jews, not vadai goyim. This is still probably off topic because I’m not sure any posek ever seriously entertained the idea that they were from the 10 tribes.

    #1746439

    Milhouse
    Participant

    NC, I don’t understand how you could even consider that this gemara might be agadeta. It looks exactly like any other piece of gemara that discusses a practical halachic question. Would it even occur to you to suggest that the sugya of yiush shelo mida’as might be agadeta?!

    #1746446

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    I don’t think Ethiopians are any more or less Jewish than Ashkenazim

    #1746448

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Re Ethiopians, the metzius is that there’s no evidence or reason to suppose they have any Jewish origin at all. Their Bible was identical to the first half of their Xian neighbors’ Bible, and not to any Jewish Tanach. They have no traditions that are Jewish rather than Xian. They have no genetic markers indicating Jewish ancestry. And their own origin story is completely consistent with the beliefs of their Xian neighbors, and completely inconsistent with Jewish tradition. It seems obvious that their ancestors were normal Xians who one day decided that the first half of their Bible made sense and the second half didn’t. Rather like that group in Uganda who have now been “converted” by the Conservatives.

    By way of contrast, the Bene Israel of Bombay had very little in the way of Jewish tradition left, but the tiny bits they had were inconsistent with anything around them, and their origin story is plausible and consistent with our traditions. In addition they did not intermarry with their neighbors, or accept converts, and since they did not allow divorcees to remarry they’re not bechezkas mamzerim.

    #1746457

    Milhouse
    Participant

    The Ramban in sefer Haguelah shaar aleph, and the rambam in Igeres Teiman […] state that the sefardim are from Malchus Yehuda, and the Ashkenazim are from the aseret shevatim

    I just scanned through both of these sources and did not find anything like this.

    #1746589

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Ethiopians, the metzius is that there’s no evidence or reason to suppose they have any Jewish origin at all.”
    We don’t posken by genotyping. All the reasons you list are why they need geirus. The fact that they claim to be Jewish and have been for as many generations as they can recall is what makes it a safek.

    I’m not saying anything you’re saying is wrong. But, I don’t think any posek would tell you to take it out to its extreme and sell chometz to an Ethiopian Jew (pre-geirus). Personally, I believe they were Christians who re-invented Judaism based on the “Old Testament” as well, but we’re still choshesh for the slight possibility that this isn’t the case. The genetics brings nothing to the table, halachically-speaking.

    #1746658

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “NC, I don’t understand how you could even consider that this gemara might be agadeta.”
    You have yet to tell us what gemara you are referencing. You just keep saying “the gemara,” or “that gemara.”

    Meanwhile, it seems as though everyone on this thread is viewing what you’re saying as a chiddush. “The gemara says so” is not a proof. Even supplying the daf does little unless you can prove that anyone else learns it the same way as you. From you representation, it sounds like the type of sugya where chazal are discussing different versions of a verbal history (eg. Herod’s upbringing). I don’t see how that would be considered a halachic discussion, but I haven’t seen it inside.

    #1746722

    ” Ethiopians are any more or less Jewish than Ashkenazim”

    Rabbi SZ Auerbach Dismissed that assertion Out of hand
    for that matter most leading Authorities agreed

    #1747003

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Rav Ovadia said they are Zeta Israel. So what’s your point?

    #1747057

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Zeta Yisroel? You mean Zera Yisroel?

    Are you referring to Ethiopians or Ashkenazim? Because I’m pretty sure that 99% of what people on the internet claim HaRav Ovadia Yosef said about Ashkenazim was never said at all.

    #1747066

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    No he said Ethiopians are Zera Israel. He’s singlehandedly opened the way for them to make Aliya. The other rabbis were too scared that dark-skinned African people can somehow be Jewish.

    As for Ashkenazim, he obviously respected them but he knew their faults and wasn’t scared to tell to them in their collective face.

    #1747175

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    How did he figure they’re Zera Yisrael? You have the source?

    They had no rabbinic sforim and their Bible included certain books found in the Christian Bible. To say that they’re vadai Jews would be a really big chiddush. Pulling the race card does not help an argument in halachah.

    #1747242

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    He had the sources. He was a master of mekorot. I trust him with emuna pshuta. If you want to question everything, zeigezunt. Plus, why are they any more doubtful than the Ashkenazic descendants of Khazars?

    #1747313

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Lol. I made the mistake of taking a troll seriously.

    Just in hopes that this actually upsets you: I’m just going to go ahead and assume Rav Ovadia never actually said any of the things you’re claiming here.

    #1747346

    YO
    Correct and he was in the minority
    it is a prime reason besides the more obvious ones As to how come Ethiopians are more affiliated with the sfardim
    In bnei Brak There is a Scholar
    Who goes through
    Dissects and tears apart most of His sources

    #1747365

    Allan
    Participant

    Really? You’re kidding me. But I do believe that with all the pogroms against Ashkenazie Jews , there is a theory that their fathers are Ukrainians, hence Uman.

    #1747426

    Milhouse
    Participant

    We don’t posken by genotyping.

    Why not? It’s a question of metzius, and this is important evidence. But you have it backwards. If they had genetic markers of a Jewish past, then there would be reason to take their claims seriously. Without it what reason is there?

    All the reasons you list are why they need geirus. The fact that they claim to be Jewish and have been for as many generations as they can recall is what makes it a safek.

    Are you serious?! Just because someone claims something creates a safek that they might be correct?! If I claim to be a lamp post, will you entertain even the slightest thought that maybe, just maybe, I might be one?

    #1747430

    Milhouse
    Participant

    NC, I already told you the gemara is in the middle of Yevamos, and it’s very easily found by searching for “chalach” and “chavor”. If you can’t be bothered finding it that’s your privilege, but you’re not entitled to an opinion on it without first looking at it.

    #1747434

    Milhouse
    Participant

    How did he figure they’re Zera Yisrael? You have the source?

    His only source was a teshuva from the Radvaz about a slave purchased in the market who claimed to be from them. He takes for granted that they are from Shevet Dan, but gives no source for it.

    #1747435

    Joseph
    Participant

    Allan, with a majority of Sephardim having converted to Christianity between the 1300s and 1500s, and later a number of the Marranos having returned, are you not concerned about Christian parentage of Sephardim.

    #1747436

    Milhouse
    Participant

    I would have no more hesitation in selling my chametz to an unconverted member of “Beta Israel” than I would in selling it to any random nochri who might turn out to be Jewish in the maternal line.

    #1747453

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Really? You’re kidding me. But I do believe that with all the pogroms against Ashkenazie Jews , there is a theory that their fathers are Ukrainians, hence Uman.

    1. There is no such “theory”. Unfounded speculation by random nutcases does not constitute a theory.

    2. What the *$#$% does Uman have to do with it?

    3. Even if it were true, so what? How could it be even remotely relevant?

    #1747595

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “But I do believe that with all the pogroms against Ashkenazie Jews , there is a theory that their fathers are Ukrainians, hence Uman.”
    This sentence makes no sense at all. Was there a typo somewhere, or is it just really under-explained?

    There were pogroms in Uman, but I don’t see any connections between that and having Ukrainian ancestors. Wouldn’t that make you think it’s less likely to have had intermingling?

    #1747731

    shmoolik 1
    Participant

    the”sfardim” are really descendants of those who did not return from Bavel and spread across asia and north africa along the trade routes to the far east their religious authority was the yeshivot of Bavel the Ashkenazim left Eretz Yisrael to southern Europe due to Roman persecution and later troubles and spread northward into europe along the trade routes into germany and france

    #1747755

    Joseph
    Participant

    YO: The descendents of the Khazars are Sephardim. The Ethiopians were never Jewish.

    #1747831

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The Eidah HeChareidis posken’s that they’re safek Jews, so you have no heter for your selling chometz to them stance.

    I admit, I can’t back up what I’m saying any more than YO could when he referenced Rov Ovadia Yosef. <strong>(Modified)</strong>

    Millhouse: if you did 23 and Me or some such thing and it didn’t come back Jewish, you would go ahead and eat pork? I don’t care how much sense it makes in your head, we don’t posken by genetic testing.

    You guys seem to be assuming that because the stance is more PC, it must be more meikel. The psak that they’re safek Jews is a chashash, not a kulah. Presumably they cannot marry kohanim or mamzerim after geirus. Even if the odds of them being Jewish is 1 in a hundred, it’s worth taking the precaution.

    #1747821

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    I thought we settled this. Ashkenazim are descendants of Khazar goyim. Ethiopians are Zera Israel who were converted lechumra.

    #1747846

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The daf Millhouse seems to be talking about is 16b in Yevamos. It is halachah not aggadeta; he’s right. It’s talking about whether or not a marriage between a goyish man and a Jewish woman might be a valid kiddushin because of the possibility that the man is from the 10 lost tribes. It gets shot down essentially because the 10 tribes are separated and therefore it follows mechtzah al mechtzah: rov goyim are not from the 10 tribes therefore we assume each individual goy is a goy gamor (if I’m understanding correctly; I just skimmed).

    I have to agree with Millhouse that, based on this, it seems like anyone who tries to claim a group is one of the lost tribes would be arguing on this gemara. It’s a good question, then, why chushuve people have brought up the concept over the years. Is there a gemara somewhere else that shlugs this up?

    #1747854

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neville, where did you ever hear that the Eidah HeChareidis posken’s that they’re safek Jews?

    #1747873

    Grey matter
    Participant

    MH please tell us your source telling us there a source we can search isn’t a source please name the Gemara or I will assume you made it up

    #1747898

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    What does it matter what the Eidah thinks? How is that relevant?

    #1747934

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Neville, where did you ever hear that the Eidah HeChareidis posken’s that they’re safek Jews?”
    When did you hear they don’t? They’re machmir in both directions, as I described. It clearly doesn’t make them any more meikel in their expectations for the geirus process.

    “MH please tell us your source telling us there a source we can search isn’t a source please name the Gemara or I will assume you made it up”
    I found it. See above.

    RGP: “What does it matter what the Eidah thinks? How is that relevant?”
    It shows that they aren’t vadai goyim according to any major de’os. You already established HaRav Ovadia Yosef’s opinion, which MH apparently doesn’t hold by. He seems to be assuming there are poskim out there who take his approach, but I do not know of any, nor has he brought any.

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