Are sons more desirable than daughters?

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  • #605283
    bubka
    Participant

    Bava Basra (16b): A daughter was born to Rav Shimon the son of Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi and he was upset because of it. His father tried to comfort him by saying, Increase has come to the world. Bar Kappara said to him, Your father has tried comforting you with a worthless consolation. Because the braissa says, The world can not exist without both males or females and yet happy is he whose children are males and woe is he whose children are females. Similarly the world cannot exist without both spice sellers or tanners, and yet happy is he whose profession is that of a spice seller and woe is he whose professions is that of tanner. On this issue of the value of daughters there is a dispute amongst the Tannaim. It says in Bereishis (24:1), G?d blessed Avraham with everything [ba-kol]

    #984212

    Pele Yoetz is an amazing sefer. I just recommended it in another thread, for “which sefer to learn together for couples”.

    #984214
    akuperma
    Participant

    We should also learn from zoology that HaShem can and did create creatures that can reproduce unisexually (i.e. one gender), and that we can assume HsShem has a good reason in requiring human to reproduce sexually (two genders, totally dependent on each other, and incapable of long term surival if they don’t cooperate).

    #984215
    repharim
    Member

    my wife and I hope our first kid will be a girl….so no 🙂

    #984216
    golfer
    Participant

    Sons AND daughters are the most wonderful amazing gifts that a person can get from H-m. And that’s all there is to say, as far as I’m concerned.

    #984217
    yytz
    Participant

    There is another quote in rabbinical literature, I don’t remember by whom, saying that people shouldn’t complain about having daughters because often the daughters end up bringing the parents more nachas than the sons.

    Rashi had three daughters and no sons. So did the second-to-last Lubavitcher Rebbe. You didn’t hear them complaining. We should be happy with whatever Hashem gives us.

    #984218
    bubka
    Participant

    ?? ?????? (????? ?’ ??): ????? ??? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ?’ ??? ?”? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??”? ?”? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ??’, ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????’ ??????, ??” ? ????? ????? ???????

    Bava Basra(141a): ? For R. Hisda said: [If a] daughter [is born] first, it is a good sign for the children. Some say, because she rears her brothers; and others say. because the evil eye has no influence over them. R. Hisda said: To me, however, daughters are dearer than sons.

    #984219
    oomis
    Participant

    Having a HEALTHY child of either gender is the greatest bracha we could hope for. I feel so sad for the rabbi who was so sad that he needed to be “consoled” on the birth of a daughter, as well as for the rov who felt the need to console him. There are people who would do ANYTHING in the world for the privilege of having any child, much less a beautiful, healthy daughter.

    #984220
    147
    Participant

    We are currently on the 3rd occupant of the White House who has no sons but only daughter.

    #984221
    eman
    Participant

    We were married for a number of years before our first child, a girl, was born. My fellow mispallelim all expressed their joy with 1 exception. This person, who was probably spaced out asked me what the mazel tov was for, I said my wife gave birth to a girl. His response “such a fuss over a girl”.

    #984222
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    eman: That person is a jerk.

    When my wife was pregnant with our twins, we knew we were having a boy and a girl. The only thing I asked the doctor was if there was a way to control which one came out first. I had a chance to do a once in a lifetime mitzvah of pidyon haben, and I didn’t want to miss out!

    It turned out that he was born first – but via a C-Section, so there was no pidyon. Oh well. Two of my brothers had girls first, and the one who had a boy first is married to a bas Levi. No pidyon as of yet from my family, although there are a few more unmarried siblings still to go.

    #984223
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    boys are cheaper and they don’t usually get lice. that’s the real reason people want them. I personally am grateful for everything Hashem has given me and could not imagine thinking of any of my kids as anything less than a miracle and a gift.

    #984224
    Naysberg
    Member

    It’s in teresting that boys get a shalom zochor, vach nacht, bris milah, pidyon haben, upsherin and bar mitzvah while girls get few of that.

    #984225
    golfer
    Participant

    Maybe, naysberg, because they’re not going to grow up to become the gadol hador. 😉

    #984226
    bubka
    Participant

    Berachos(60a): ?Within the first three days a man should pray that the seed should not putrefy; from the third to the fortieth day he should pray that the child should be a male; from the fortieth day to three months he should pray that it should not be a sandal; from three months to six months he should pray that it should not be still-born; from six months to nine months he should pray for a safe delivery.

    Nida (31b): ?R. Isaac citing R. Ammi further stated: As soon as a male comes into the world peace comes into the world, for it is said, Send ye a gift for the ruler of the land [and the Hebrew for] male [the Hebrew for] male [zakar, being composed of the consonants of the words for] [zeh kar] [kera] for them. A female has nothing with her, [the Hebrew for] female [nekebah] [nekiyyah ba’ah]. Unless she demands her food nothing is given to her, for it is written, Demand [nakebah] from me thy wages and I will give it.

    #984227
    miritchka
    Member

    I used to wonder why it was that boys were considered more of a simchas than girls. When i heard a devar torah on birchas hashachar, the speaker said the reason boys say “shelo asani isha” is to thank Hashem that He has given him the ability to do more mitzvohs than girls have. This is probably the reason it is “more of a simcha” by a boy. But it does make me feel a bit annoyed (?) when i hear these stories of ta’naim, amora’im…who were so upset/saddened by teh birth of a daughter.

    #984228
    golfer
    Participant

    Miritchka, stop being annoyed. There are a lot of things tanna’im & amora’im said on a great variety of topics that we cannot understand. Even people who devote years of their lives to studying their words are sometimes left with “teiku.”

    In your own world, look around at the Rabbinic figures and young talmidei chachamim that you are acquainted with. I challenge you to find one who expresses any amount of disappointment

    at the birth of a baby girl in his family.

    #984229
    interjection
    Participant

    “he speaker said the reason boys say “shelo asani isha” is to thank Hashem that He has given him the ability to do more mitzvohs than girls have. “

    You fall for that?

    #984230
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Even people who devote years of their lives to studying their words are sometimes left with “teiku.”

    Who needs to say “teiku?” There’s a very simple answer… they lived in a different culture with different values than we have today. Most people in today’s society (eman’s acquaintance notwithstanding) view healthy children of either gender as a blessing and a cause for celebration. Back then, it was not culturally so.

    The Wolf

    #984231
    Sam2
    Participant

    R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and other contemporary Poskim say that even though the Poskim bring down that the Brachah on having a baby girl is different than a boy, nowadays society has changed and there is the same Simchah when each is born.

    #984232
    vochindik
    Member

    The Gemorah would not record something in the Gemorah if all it is was a local/societal/cultural issue of the day. If the Gemorah recorded it, it is to teach Klal Yisroel something that is time immemorial for us to learn from even today.

    #984233
    Poster
    Member

    You can never have enough sisters and every mother needs a daughter!

    #984234
    shlishi
    Member

    What are the differences between the brachos between the birth of a boy and that of a girl? The boy’s brocho indicates a larger simcha from what I recall?

    #984235
    interjection
    Participant

    “the speaker said the reason boys say “shelo asani isha” is to thank Hashem that He has given him the ability to do more mitzvohs than girls have.”

    That answer never settled well with me. You were probably also told that women are given the bracha of sheasani kirtzono meaning that G-d considers women to be ideal.

    But that’s hypocritical. If women are ideal then why are men making a bracha that they are not ideal?

    I’m always open to criticism and if what I have to say is not in sync with Torah hashkafa someone please correct me but I’ve come up with the following:

    The primary need for males is the need to be respected and admired and the primary need for women is to be loved and wanted.

    The man’s bracha addresses the need by saying ‘shelo asani isha’ thereby stating that women are inferior, and motivating the man by telling him that he has prestige if not for anything else than at least because he is a man and NOT a woman, he is already given superiority.

    The woman’s bracha also adresses her need by telling her that G-d wants her. G-d, the Master of the Universe, our King and Father of all beings and creation, He wants her!

    That knowledge should be sufficient motivation for each person to start off his or her day with positivity.

    #984236
    interjection
    Participant

    “the speaker said the reason boys say “shelo asani isha” is to thank Hashem that He has given him the ability to do more mitzvohs than girls have.”

    That answer never settled well with me. You were probably also told that women are given the bracha of sheasani kirtzono meaning that G-d considers women to be ideal.

    But that’s hypocritical. If women are ideal then why are men making a bracha that they are not ideal?

    I’m always open to criticism and if what I have to say is not in sync with Torah hashkafa someone please correct me but I’ve come up with the following:

    The primary need for males is the need to be respected and admired and the primary need for women is to be loved and wanted.

    The man’s bracha addresses the need by saying ‘shelo asani isha’ thereby stating that women are inferior, and motivating the man by telling him that he has prestige if not for anything else than at least because he is a man and NOT a woman, he is already given superiority.

    The woman’s bracha also adresses her need by telling her that G-d wants her. G-d, the Master of the Universe, our King and Father of all beings and creation, He wants her!

    That knowledge should be sufficient motivation for each person to start off his or her day with positivity.

    #984237
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    boys are cheaper and they don’t usually get lice. that’s the real reason people want them.

    IIRC, that is the reason given by Avraham, that he should not have to pay a dowery.

    It continues to be true today. Sons in law require life support, while daughters in law work to support their families!

    #984238
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The Gemorah would not record something in the Gemorah if all it is was a local/societal/cultural issue of the day.

    It wasn’t merely the cultural attitude of the day… it was pretty much the cultural attitude of most societies from the beginning of time until then. They probably had no reason to suspect that thousands of years later, cultural attitudes towards the birth of girls would change.

    The Wolf

    #984239
    vochindik
    Member

    I thought I was fairly clear. The Gemorah does not make recordings of “cultural attitudes” unless it is to teach us something today, in our modern day and time. That the Gemorah recorded it is because the Gemorah wishes to impart a lesson to us, that we can utilize in our lives today, from what it is telling us.

    #984240
    Sam2
    Participant

    Vochindik: Wrong. Shehechiyanu and Hatov V’hameitiv are Brachos that are dependent on a level of Simchah, something which certainly changes with the times. In Chazal’s times, the level of Simchah for having a daughter was much less, which had Halachic Nafka Minas. Nowadays, the level of Simchah is the same (according to many Poskim), which also has Halachic Nafka Minas.

    #984241
    CRuzer
    Member

    Sons are more desirable because if we had more boys, there wouldn’t be a shidduch crisis. See? The Gemara is relevant for all generations.

    #984242
    miritchka
    Member

    golfer: I wasnt sure what the right word was, hence the question mark in parenthesis. Apparently “annoyed” is the wrong word. I dont hear of rabbonim nowadays saying negative when a girl is born, thats why it only bothers me when i hear about those stories from the past.

    interjection: i always fall for it ;). I never heard it the way you put it, very interesting! And now I’m falling for your “teretz:!

    wolfishmusings: I dont disagree with you. However, while they had their values right back then, they did have more deaths and most of the diseases back then were fatal as opposed to those same diseases today.

    poster: hear, hear!!

    #984243
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    wolfishmusings: However, while they had their values right back then, they did have more deaths and most of the diseases back then were fatal as opposed to those same diseases today.

    And so?

    Forgive me, but I don’t see the relevance of this to the discussion. Can you please elaborate?

    Thanks,

    The Wolf

    #984244
    rabbi wanabe
    Member

    in the medrash there is a diffrent girsa than the gemara and look up the sefer divrei yatziv from the previous Klausenburger Rebbe on this gemara(using the mafteach in the back) where he comes out that today since there is a cherem from rabbeinu gershom to marry more than one wife it is better to have girls. (the teshuva needs to be learnt slowly and understood well since it is quite complicated)I actually said this as bris torah after I made my third bris. after all is said and done its all up to the one above.

    #984245
    miritchka
    Member

    Wolfish musings: “Who needs to say “teiku?” There’s a very simple answer… they lived in a different culture with different values than we have today. Most people in today’s society (eman’s acquaintance notwithstanding) view healthy children of either gender as a blessing and a cause for celebration. Back then, it was not culturally so.”

    Golfer had mentioned that that I shouldnt be upset about the stories of old where great people were saddened/dissappointed by the birth of a daughter. And something about a ‘teiku’. You responded to him with the above.

    I just made a statement that it would seem they would celebrate the birth of a healthy child of either gender back then more than nowadays because of the many diseases that were around back then.

    #984247
    Das
    Member
    #984248

    Interjection:

    I actually really like your pshat.

    I just want to add that the pshat that you heard also makes sense to me. I’ve heard that in Olam HaBah women will have a great advantage over men in being able to be mekabel the light of Hashem as they are already mekubalos, while men are nosnim. The bracha of she’asani kirtzonoh seem to be to be addressing a woman’s innate ability to mekabel from Hashem whatever He wants for her.

    in other words both advantages are being addressed with these two brachos. Man’s advantage of having more mitzvos and by extension more schar. And woman’s advantage of being able to more effectively receive schar. I picture the difference of 10 gallons through a shower head vs. 5 gallons though an open pipe (except that schar is infinite)

    #984249

    Girls girls girls! They are my personal Favorite. Once you have a boy then its a mini mashgiach. Ta we need to go to shul, Ta your late. Ta when do you learn.

    Plus i would not want any son of mine have to deal with the yeshiva system that i went through. Let my wife raise the girls and let it be

    #984250
    uneeq
    Member

    YYTZ, Bubka: In Baba Basra 141A Rashi says about Rav Chisda, who stated that he prefers daughters to sons-

    ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????

    Rashi could not understand how R’ Chisda could be happy if he had no sons. It seems like Rashi wasn’t the happiest about having only daughters.

    Also see the Ben Yehoyada Rosh Hashana 26a where he comes to explain what a “??? ?????” is. He brings down that whenever a boy is born, the entire town celebrates, and everyone is happy. ???”? when a girl is born, everyone starts crying…

    #984251
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Yawn, Joseph, bubka or whatever he is going by now is once again cherry picking from pieces of chazal which support his already ingrained views of male dominance.

    Joseph, what the modern orthodox do for heterim, you do the same thing to show male superiority in religion.

    Please stop misrepresenting the Torah HaKedosh. You don’t see what the Torah has to say, you have your krum opinions and then find things in the Torah to match them.

    #984252
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Rashi could not understand how R’ Chisda could be happy if he had no sons. It seems like Rashi wasn’t the happiest about having only daughters.

    Except that Bava Basra has Rashbam, not Rashi, from the third perek on, this would have been cute.

    #984253
    uneeq
    Member

    gavra_at_work: Oops!

    Maybe we can say that being a grandson of Rashi, he witnessed Rashi’s pain and reflected on it?

    #984254
    Jimmy
    Member

    You get what your given, and be happy that you were lucky enough to give birth to a kid/kids, Many people would give anything for children of any gender.

    #984255

    Doesn’t pru u’rvu require having two boys and two girls (with some shittos saying one of each)?

    #984256
    Sam2
    Participant

    TLKY: B’feirush 1 of each. Machlokes Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel in the middle of Yevamos. We Pasken that it’s 1 of each (first Siman in Even Ha’ezer, I think).

    #984257
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Doesn’t pru u’rvu require having two boys and two girls (with some shittos saying one of each)?

    I’m not aware of that. It’s a machlokes in the Mishna between Bais Shammai and Beis Hillel.

    B”S says you need two boys. B”H says you need a boy and a girl. IIRC, the children themselves need to be able to have children as well.

    Of course, this is one of those mitzvos where sometimes you can just try and try and still not make it. My grandfather had five daughters and no sons.

    The Wolf

    #984258
    golfer
    Participant

    I hope you”ll tell us, Wolf, that your Zaidy lived to see you born, and to enjoy the thrill of a grandson!

    (Calm down all you posters who are thinking of calling me a misogynist; I’m sure Wolf’s grandfather loved all his daughters dearly.)

    #984259
    aurora77
    Participant

    I hope and pray that despite medical odds, I will be able to have a child at all. The question posed presupposes the ability to have children. Sadly, this is not everyone’s reality.

    #984260
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I hope you”ll tell us, Wolf, that your Zaidy lived to see you born, and to enjoy the thrill of a grandson!

    (Calm down all you posters who are thinking of calling me a misogynist; I’m sure Wolf’s grandfather loved all his daughters dearly.)

    Well, he did live to see me born, married and become a father myself. Whether or not I am a “thrill of a grandson” I’ll leave to the judgement of others.

    The Wolf

    (And yes, he loved all his daughters.)

    #984261
    karagnostic
    Member

    I cant believe this is even a question. the rabbis who expressed frustration or anoyance at the birth of a girl were living in a time period when girls were considered less valuable than boys. common sense people

    #984262
    good.jew
    Member

    karagnostic: you may not understand the Gemara, but how can you say “common sense people”? Your comment is way out of line.

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