Are students allowed to be thrown out of school? Mesivta/ high school

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  • #1636643

    meirs
    Participant

    Just want to know peoples opinion, being a bochur in yeshiva now.

    #1636712

    Meno
    Participant

    My opinion is that it is allowed.

    #1636731

    funnybone
    Participant

    I agree with Meno. But, yeshiva is responsible that alternate placement is found.

    #1636765

    Joseph
    Participant

    Retzicha.

    #1636782

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Why is this question only addressed to mesivta/ highschool and not elementary or post highschool. And why not address girls as well?

    #1636770

    The little I know
    Participant

    Question is extremely complex. To throw out as a punishment is certainly inexcusable. The job of the yeshiva is to educate, not punish. There is a very, very small role for punishment in yeshiva, and only if it is part of the education. The punishment that is intended to control, take revenge, or express the anger/rage of the rebbe or menahel is anti-Torah, anti-chinuch, and ossur. For those who want to bicker with me, please first review several of the many seforim on chinuch. I will note those from Rav Wolbe, Rav Ovadia Yosef, Nesivas Sholom, Chasam Sofer, Rav Aharon Friedman, and others. Then you may cite chapter and verse in any challenge to my statements.

    #1636786

    Meno
    Participant

    Retzicha.

    אבר מן החי

    #1636788

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Retzicha

    Yes, leaving a bad influence in the yeshiva might be retzicha klapei some of the other boys.

    It’s dinei nefashos, but it goes both ways.

    I don’t envy the ones who have to make these decisions.

    #1636789

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why is this question only addressed to mesivta/ highschool and not elementary or post highschool. And why not address girls as well?

    OP is a boy in yeshiva (probably mesivta).

    #1636844

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Legally they are allowed, the question is should they be allowed

    Just my personal take , it should not be allowed unless the offender can do serious PHYSICAL harm to the other bochrim like violence or drugs. Most of the offenses bochrim are thrown out for are really minor and the yeshiva is wrong

    #1636793

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If a student is either so disruptive that he/she is preventing others from learning or their personal attributes (vaccination, carrying a communicable disase etc) put others at risk, than not only is it “allowed” to suspend them from school but the school administrators are obligated to do so. It is mamash gazalah from the other parents who are being mesiras nefesh to pay the tuition to educate their kids to allow a chronically disruptive student to remain in school and deny chinuch to others. Likewise it is pikuach nefesh to protect the other kids from one who poses a known medical risk.

    The real question is what responsibility does the tizbur in general have to provide the financial support for special education in terms of either home schooling etc. for those who cannot be allowed to attend regular yeshivos/beis yaakovs.

    #1636795

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Many schools use a different tactic of throwing out a kid . They wait til the year is up and then tell the parents that the kid isnt for thier school.

    #1636864

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Tango: Thats just kicking the can down the road w/o addressing the underlying problem that there are a small percentage of talmidim/talmidot who really cannot be integrated successfully (aka mainstreamed) into the regular yeshiva networks and the tzibur needs to offer some backstop for to poor parents of these kids who struggle to find an alternative to educate their children. I recall years ago, Kiryas Joel worked with one of the most outstanding litigators in the country (Nat Lewin) to argue for public funding of a special school district they established for their disabled children. Thats not an option in many other cases where the parents will not be willing to send their kids to special programs managed by the public school systems.

    #1636897

    The little I know
    Participant

    Not every talmid is a match for the school. But there is a reason for it. Individual differences between kids exist (duh!). But that is the role of the school, to fulfill חנוך לנער על פי דרכו. By our yeshivos creating schools that are modeled after the public school system, with large classrooms and a curriculum, we have encountered huge problems. In the days of a מלמד having no more than 6-8 kids, where individual attention was the norm, this was possible. And none other than שלמה המלך told us that this was the wisest way to be mechanech. Today’s system all but renders that impossible, and pushes kids into the mold of the yeshiva. Wise? NO! Convenient? Yes. Attending to the unique needs of the talmid is now the exception. There are bochurim who do far better with learning בקיאות, others עיון, and others in niches like הלכה, אגדה, etc. Being able to say that one learned under the tutelage of a specific Rosh Yeshiva is no longer common, being replaced by names of cities or yeshivos. Mobility has assumed the role that רבי מובהק once occupied.

    Yeshivos are apt to describe their activity as עוסקים בצרכי ציבור. Sadly, that is hardly true anymore. Each is in the game of competing for the best talmidim, the ones that need the least guidance or direction. So the matching issue becomes very serious. If my yeshiva is out to produce those that will finish Shas while still under my roof, I will push for the hasmodoh that obliterates any trace of physical fitness activity, and will also pressure the בקיאות piece over עיון. Someone inclined to learn differently will be an unwelcome guest. Should a bochur like this be thrown out because of this mismatch? Should we question whether we should be fashioning a yeshiva on a single derech? Should we be pressing a square peg into a round hole?

    What about behavioral issues? Should yeshivos have the authority to sentence a kid to live in the street, or should they work with him to shape up? Do they even know how to help?

    The issue is complex. To trash the entire existing yeshiva system in order to create a better or more fair one is not reality. But I would hope that our yeshiva leaders re-examine their mandate.

    #1637091

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I think anyone who thinks there is actually an answer to this shouldn’t be trusted. There are so many variables that would go into this question including which yeshiva, why, where would he go instead, what have you done so far, is he broken or just battered, is the decision being made with heart, are you financially capable of helping him, are you cognitively capable of handling him, are you even sure you got the right kid, did another kid with rich parents get away with the same behaviors, who, if anyone, are you trying to impress, who if anyone are you worried about not impressing…..
    the list goes on.
    This is one of those dumb questions like, “did the military make the right choice on their invasion of (fill in the blank)” where people think they can actually consider themselves informed enough to have an opinion.

    #1637156

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think anyone who thinks there is actually an answer to this shouldn’t be trusted.

    If you’re discussing an individual case, okay.

    But as a matter of principle, what’s wrong with an opinion about whether there are or aren’t any situations in which it’s warranted?

    #1637222

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    I believe it was Rav Shteinman ZT”L who said that it’s the absolute last ditch effort to expell a kid from a school and it should only be done when all alternatives have been exhausted and s/he is a terrible influence on the rest of the class. Furthermore, the institution is required to find an alternative.

    #1637233

    The little I know
    Participant

    DY:

    I suppose that who possess an IQ on the positive side of 0 understand that each kid facing expulsion by a yeshiva is an individual case to be judged on its own merits. What makes this worth discussion is that it is commonplace for yeshivos to throw kids out impulsively. Whereas there must be those who have faculty meetings where they discuss the matter, there are certainly many that do not. Sorry, no statistics. I have heard many, many cases where a kid is simply ejected, for him and his parents to fend for themselves. In certain cases, these yeshivos were corrupt enough to call other possible yeshivos where the expelled talmid might go and warn them to not accept him. Not as a rule, but not a rare exception either.

    The pikuach nefesh factor seems to be ignored, and the role the yeshiva should be taking to work with the talmid (albeit a challenging one) is also bypassed. The Gedolim of yesteryear were highly opposed to such practice, though using this as an argument to stop an expulsion has not worked.

    I agree that there are yeshivos that cannot work for certain talmidim, and they need to go elsewhere. An earlier comment noted that “throwing out” must be accompanied by finding an alternative placement. I agree, but optimism here is hard to find.

    #1637250

    Milhouse
    Participant

    “The little”, when was there ever a time when melamdim had only 6-8 talmidim?

    #1637280

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What makes this worth discussion is that it is commonplace for yeshivos to throw kids out impulsively.

    How do you know that it’s impulsively? Unless you’re in chinuch, which would be a major shocker considering how you constantly bash mechanchim.

    #1637290

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “To throw out as a punishment is certainly inexcusable. The job of the yeshiva is to educate, not punish. There is a very, very small role for punishment in yeshiva, and only if it is part of the education.”

    You live in fairy tale land. The job of Mesivta is to train them for the real world. Punishment is part of education; they can’t be acting like wild animals and disrespecting their superiors if they’re ever going to amount to anything.

    What would be your solution if a boy beat up another boy? Teach him math? Teach him more gemara?

    If a kid threatens the well-being or education of everyone around him, he has to be thrown out. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

    #1637476

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Neville, by the time they get to Mesivta, they should already be mostly trained.

    #1637499

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “If a kid threatens the well-being or education of everyone around him, he has to be thrown out. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”
    Both logical and noble, but that doesn’t make it right.
    Find him a new setting.

    #1637589

    Bachur3
    Participant

    Neville Chaim Berlin your response to the punishment peace , is just untrue and I see why you wouldn’t know the difference from your name 🙂

    #1637592

    Bachur3
    Participant

    The little ik who are you , you are spitting fire right now !!! How do uk so much truth about this topic? Pls tell me

    #1637724

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Bashing mechanchim? Expecting mechanchim and schools to do right by the klal isnt bashing. Unless you live somewhere where he is speaking to the norm, in which case i feel sad for your options.

    One does not have to be out of chinuch to have those opinions, and one certsinly does not need to be in chinuch to know what’s going on. Any friend, rav, therapist, neighbor, fellow jew can speak to hanhala about a boy they care about, or a concern they are having with a teacher, and hear exactly what’s going on. If you are oseik in those receiving chinuch, you are as well informed as you choose to be.

    #1637776

    1
    Participant

    Not without a replacement. There should be co-operation between schools, in these cases.

    #1637941

    The little I know
    Participant

    Milhouse:

    Before there was a chinuch system as we know it today, with yeshivos, etc., parents hired a melamed to learn with their child. These מלמדי דרדקי were traditionally paid little. It was common that a melamed had 1-2 children, but the large groups tended to be 6-8. There was no organization, no menahel, no building, no transportation. This is described in many books, as well as by many who grew up in that era.

    DY:

    I am not a constant basher. The issue of “throwing out” from mesivta is highly controversial, and something that should never be done lightly. I have direct contact with way too many cases that were handled badly, and not a small percentage of the expulsions from quite a few mainstream litvishe and chassidishe yeshivos. The numbers do not matter, as the kid being expelled is a 100% victim, while the one not is 0%. And I do have quite a bit of experience here, being involved much closer to the inside than I am willing to describe in a public forum. I can sing praises as well, and when the discussion focuses on the strong points, I acknowledge them with proper respect.

    NCB:

    You’re being ridiculous. No, you don’t discipline a kid that’s bullying or a mechutzaf with teaching math or gemora. But a trained mechanech knows better than to make discipline the main tool of his job. The kid misbehaving is acting out, and needs to be guided, not punished. The acting out is a cry for help, being expressed immaturely. The kid needs guidance, help, and to be embraced by Torah value. Punishment never taught. It controlled. There is a small role for that. But making this a major tool for a yeshiva is a dereliction of duty. Your citing the needs of the individual over the majority sounds really nice, but is incorrect. The Chazon Ish ZT”L is quoted as having stated this (He passed away in 1953): Until now (post Holocaust with the major destruction to yeshivos and talmidei chachomim) the goal of yeshivos was to educate the tzibbur. It is now the responsibility to educate the yochid. I do not disagree that a talmid might need to be placed elsewhere. But simple relocation without attending to the needs of the talmid is irresponsible. Just punishing is most often destructive, not educational. There are ways to punish. I refer you to the sefer זריעה ובנין בחינוך from Rav Wolbe ZT”L. It is a section of the עלי שור – חלק ב. I am not fabricating anything here.

    Bachur3:

    Sorry, my use of screen name is for anonymity. I may not be the greatest genius here, but my experience is extensive, as is my current involvement with the subject matter. I will not identify further.

    Syag:

    Thanks for the support.

    #1638081

    Bachur3
    Participant

    The little I know please get intouch with me , there is a yeshiva out there that upholds all that you speak about , pls pls

    #1638139

    The little I know
    Participant

    Bachur3:

    I bet there are several. I still shudder for all those who fail our children, considering their work holy. Of course, chinuch is as holy a task as there can be. But I repeatedly stress the need to look to our greatest for direction. Visit your seforim stores, and peruse the wealth of material now published on the subject, and all from purely Torah sources. These texts are not mandatory study for those entering the field, and way too many mechanchim are unaware of their existence. I recall confronting my children’s menahel about this, specifying a few names of seforim. He actually did know a few. However, he was brutally honest when admitting he never opened them, nor had he ever demanded that any of his faculty learn them. Seems that achieving the authority position of menahel is enough to qualify one as an expert. I say not. I still revert to the timely and wise advice from our greatest. Many make specific discussion about the matter of expelling talmidim. There is the clear message from the Chazon Ish that this is a matter of Pikuach Nefesh and requires a beis din of 23. That quote is found in many places, including the biography Maaseh Ish. In reality, it is even rare for a Rov who is independent to the yeshiva to be consulted, let alone a beis din of any number.

    #1638180

    NOYB
    Participant

    Depends on many things. What did the bochur do? What yeshiva are we talking about? Does the bochur have any options afterward? If you are going to throw a bochur out of a standard yeshiva for going to an “off limits” pizza store motzei shabbos (assuming they just went to get pizza), that seems extreme. If you are going to throw a bochur out of a high level yeshiva for taking drugs and missing a week of shiur, that is more reasonable.

    #1638237

    funnybone
    Participant

    Every yeshiva has its standards. When a bochur crosses the line, the yeshiva must weigh its options. When there are no other options left, and an alternate yeshiva is found, the yeshiva has a right to expel. Why is that complicated?

    #1638281

    laskern
    Participant

    My son when he was accepted in the yeshiva, we had to sign an agreement that if he does not live up to the yrshiva’s expectations, they can throw him out.

    #1638320

    username123321
    Participant

    To be a bit contrarian, here’s a Teshuva from Rabbi Baumel to Reb Shraga Feivel Mendelovitch, saying that you can evict a student if he’s annoying the teacher. Even if it’s going to cause Bittul Torah to the student.

    #1638433

    The little I know
    Participant

    username:

    Interesting tshuvah. However, I suggest, as we have heard from Gedolei Yisroel of recent generations, some of whom have been quoted earlier, that the case today is completely different. The risk of bittul Torah is something one can take, as per Rav Baumel. We should have no trouble recognizing, as the Chazon Ish did, that the risk today is pikuach nefesh. It nearly seals the future of that talmid to leave shmiras mitzvos altogether, and who can guess the longer term effects on future generations. The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L (I believe it was the Rasha”b) had a talmid that committed something that warranted severe consequences. The Rebbe himself called in the bochur and informed him that he needed to expel him from the yeshiva. The talmid accepted the consequence, but then asked the Rebbe, “If I am thrown out, ok. But what will be of the future generations?” The Rebbe embraced him and took him back into the yeshiva. Today’s consequences are far more serious than being oveir gezel. I would hope that people don’t just jump on the bandwagon of a tshuvah like this and claim we can discard talmidim who are annoying. Do we do that to our children who wake us during the night?

    #1638443

    laskern
    Participant

    There is a RMA in YD 334 who says You can put someone in cherem and you don’t have to worry about the consequences. I think the Taz argues/

    #1639112

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    From what I’ve learned, the Rebbe’s position was looking at two principles to make a decision:

    1) pikuach nefesh
    2) yachid vs. Rabbim

    To explain: Yeshiva nowadays is not just to educate a child, it’s to give them Torah values and simply to produce frum yidden with frum values. So by kicking a bachur out you are not just risking his Torah knowledge you are risking his Yiddishkeit altogether. Therefore every effort must me made to work with the child and not kick him out. Even if he is doing something really wrong, it is still worth working with him as by keeping him in Yeshiva, he is more likely to be inspired to turn around or at least do better than he would outside of Yeshiva. Obviously this includes working with a child and his tendencies even if they don’t fit the typical mode. I can give examples but unless asked for would rather keep it shorter.

    However if a bocher becomes a danger to others, than the good of the others takes precedence, and if necessary, he may need to be expelled. For example, encouraging others to engage in bad behaviour (as opposed to keeping it to himself) openly flouting authority in a way that can lead to a lack of respect for authority altogether in Yeshiva if not dealt with strongly etc.

    Since the first principle still applies but the good of the many supercedes the good of the individual, care must be taken that even if it does become necessary to expel a student, it is done in the best way possible ie referring him to a more suitable program, waiting till the end of the year (if that won’t create lasting damage for others) etc.

    My principal did this personally so I had a good example of the principles put into practice

    #1639213

    The little I know
    Participant

    Chabadshluchah:

    I am not one to disagree with the Rebbe ZT”L. His statement is not much different from what was proclaimed many times by Gedolei Yisroel. Many years ago, there was a statement from the Moetzes Gedolei Yisroel of the Agudah that expelling a student required a beis din that is independent of the yeshiva/school to rule on each case. That statement was DOA. Firstly, there has yet to be known beis din that will accept a case involving a yeshiva. Secondly, it was never implemented. Not only do the many askanim working with OTD and at-risk kids know of no such case among the many of their clientele who have all been ousted from yeshivos, but have never encountered a case where a talmid’s expulsion was brought before a Rov/Posek for approval. Here’s the problem. It is correct that some expulsions are indicated. The trouble is that the yeshiva is one of the baalei din in the matter, and cannot be considered objective. For that reason, an independent outsider who is capable of objectivity should be consulted. So far, no such consultation is known about. I suggest that there may actually be such situations that involved an objective third party, but this should be a 100% rule, not a rare exception.

    The statement from the Moetzes stated that a child who was a “rodeif” can be ousted, with beis din approval. Aside from the phantom beis din, the determination of “rodeif” is far from simple. A kid that is spreading schmutz among his peers may well be a rodeif. One that sells drugs might be one, too. The drug user and the one that has unfiltered internet at home might not be one. Again, there still needs to be a process to determine risk. And yeshivos overestimate risk quite often. I have consulted to some situations that were dramatic, and speak volumes of the failure of the system.

    The Rebbe ZT”L shared brilliance. But how do we know when to apply it appropriately?

    #1639413

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    TLIK, how to apply? On an institutional level, it can seem very overwhelming ie to force every menahel etc to forward these decisions to Rabbonim etc.

    But the other way to apply is on a personal level and that is very much doable. The same way many mitzvos are between us and Hashem and as ehrliche yidden, it’s up to us to take them seriously and realise Hashem sees all, so too here. I’m not sure if my principal actually went to a Rav or made those decisions on her own. But because she knew of these principles, they were so much a part of her, that her decisions were very much in line with them and she for sure consulted with others before deciding.

    One case when I was in high school was when an out of towner who was dorming in the high school dorm started hanging out with boys. The principal waited till the end of the year and helped her find a different school for the next year.

    There was only one other instance of “expelling” I know of (when a group of girls only showed up for the classes they liked and completely disrespected authority with their parents baking. She didn’t accept the ringleaders for the coming year.)

    All other other out of the box girls, non academics etc she worked with within the school (she told one girl who was academically challenged that she could make her own schedule of whatever classes she wanted to take in school). So there is much much that can be accomplished by individuals who absorb the proper values.

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