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Often while walking in the shopping areas of Boro Park, I enter a store and a woman with a baby carriage follows right behind me. I politely hold the door for her so that she can enter the store easily.
Usually I get some nod in my direction or Thank You. Thats all thats expected.
Sometimes I get no reaction at all. As if holding the door open for her is my job. Not even a sideways glance or the slightest sign of appreciation. As if Im invisible.
Are these young women nuts, manners-clueless, selfish, out of it or something else?
This is more likely to happen when the woman is more religiously dressed than myself (I dress Bais Yaakovy).
Are they thinking “Al Tarbeh Sicha im Haisha”, even though Im unmistakenly female and so are they?
This is unusual, as you yourself said that usually they acknowledge your favor.
My issue is with complainers who always have complaints against people. Especially to complain about people who are frummer than themselves.
Medium Size Shadchan
Next time it happens, say “You’re welcome”. They should get the message.
I’m wondering if this happened with a “Bais Yaakovy” dressed woman if you’d think she was preoccupied with her kids, or was distracted on the phone or something….
Before holding the door ask them if they’ll thank you.
Cheftze: My issue is with people who think the word “frum” means something other than a way of saying “I’m better than you”. You do not know who Medium Size Shadchan is or who she holds the door open for. How do you then decide who’s “frummer” than whom?
Sam: I am going with MSS’s own definition in her OP.
I would assume these women are out of it, maybe because they are distracted, like mytake said, or maybe they really are genuinely out of it people.
We are obligated to be dan them lkaf zechus, and its definitely closer to a zechus to be a spaz than to be a selfish or rude person.
I am in agreement with you..about the ‘thank you’ not the how dressed part..
People do not say Thank you and it is just down rite rude.
I keep saying where is everyones ‘Bein adam la’chaveiro’.
I taught/teach my children always to say ‘please and thank you’
I have the same issue when peopl go into stores and request whatever it is they would like without any please- thank you- I would appreciate-
just ‘gimmee on of those and 3 of these.. then grab the pkg and out of store in no time.. I dunno this gets to me all the time- as if everyone was just mechuyav… or maybe it ribbis..lol
good point about society, mom12. The world could use some more moms like you.
Walk in behind them from now on.
MSS -Some people were never taught Middos -either in school or at home. Looking more Frum or dressing Chasidish, has nothing to do with it.
+1 Health, and it is not limited to females lots of people don’t have basic decent manners.
I noticed this too and it’s disconcerting. I started thinking that since I’m holding the door open on my own accord (as opposed to them asking me to hold it open), they feel that don’t have to thank me.
Having a bunch of younger siblings, I know quite well the relief of someone holding the door open for you with a carriage so I’m quick to volunteer… but unfortunately like you said it often goes unappreciated. Seems like a combination of anti-social Brooklyn-ness (like they’re scared to talk to someone who they don’t know) and an attitude of “bishvili nivra ha’olam.”
“My issue is with complainers who always have complaints against people. Especially to complain about people who are frummer than themselves.” —- cheftze
Ummmmm….
Forget it. I don’t trust myself to comment on this one.
I have noticed this as well, in monsey more than anywhere else. I dress I guess you would call it yeshivishe? I get stares like nobody’s business that upsets me more. When I hold the door at the clothing shops in Monsey and I don’t even get eye contact I give a loud you’re welcome! Usually gets me a shocked stare. What bothers me the MOST is that when I hold the door for goyim or my Hispanic maintenance worker at work I get thanks and gratitude and smiles. What is the deal? I almost make a point of smiling at anyone who looks at me an thank them that is how I will teach my kids atleast.
Interesting post op!
welcome to NY
this never happens OOT (except in Miami during snowbird season, incidentally)
Not to say thank you is appallingly bad manners, I don’t care WHO it is that fails to say those two words. If you cannot recognize and be makir tov to a human being for the tiny chessed he or she does for you, how can you properly be makir tov to haKadosh Boruch Hu, who is constantly doing major acts of chessed for us every single day?
don’t do it for the thank you. don’t even expect it. Just do what you should be doing
don’t do it for the thank you. don’t even expect it. Just do what you should be doing
You’re completely right zalman, I used to say thank you but then I saw somewhere that Bein Adam L’Chaveiro dictates that if it’s your spiritual growth or friend, you have to help your friend, I didn’t want people to only do a chesed for me to get the thank you so I stopped.
I don’t do it for the thank you ever. It is just good midos to say thank you and it’s gross not I. Zehu.
don’t do it for the thank you. don’t even expect it. Just do what you should be doing”
Well that goes without saying, but that does not excuse bulvanim who have no manners. “Thank you,” should be the first thing the Middos Morahs teach their students, just in case the parents have failed in that regard.
here’s one for the books. My wife and i were outside on the sidewalk talking. a lady comes running down the sidewalk (downhill and clearly in a rush), but my wife and i had no time to get out of the way. she rams full speed into my wife, who apologizes, and the lady answers “Well! If you wouldnt be standing in middle of the road…” and carries on. if i wouldnt have been so speechless i would have kicked her. hard. in fact, i probably will if i see her again.
what a conversation! thats so true. i make sure to always say youre welcome to someone who didnt say anything. i even say thank you to automatic doors. (im weird in that way…) hardly do i get a thank you or a smile or even a nod when i hold a door open, or do a faavor for someone else.
i have realized this IS something to do with the person’s upbringing. Chassidish women who look down on me will NOT acknowledge my presence. but the spanish and african amricans i work with say thanks and good morning and smiles.
can we explain this?
On their way to shul this morning, my father and brother were walking towards an African American man, who had his hands stretched out, and was shouting, “Out of all of the Jews who passed me this morning, only this one (the man in front of my father) said hello to me! He must be the Savior!”
My father, inspired, said hello when he passed (after which the man said “he must also be the savior!”) , and used the opportunity to teach my brother about how easy it is to make a kiddush Hashem, or chas veshalom, the opposite.
10% of those thank you’s and smiles are okay. The rest are mostly minhag hagoyim and some of them have xian origins, making them kema’ase ha-emori.
Loyal Jew: Saying thank you is Chukas Hagoyim? Care to explain?
We just love to bash each other. When push comes to shove it is these “nuts, selfish, out of it or something else” women who are the driving forces behind many of the tzedaka and chessed organizations that are out there.
The threads bashing other jews are plentiful, those praising them, are few and far in between.
I have noticed this as well.
I always hold the door regardless for the other persons gender. most goyim will always nod or murmle a thank you. But not all yidden will do so.
However, I think that it is not because yidden are rude, it is because we are isolated and were never trained that A) you should hold the door for the next person, B) it is polite and correct to acknowledge the fact that someone held the door for you.
Mothers, make sure to teach this to your children!
APY, doing one mitzvah does not mean you should not do another one. I do not wish to bash anyone, but just because someone does chessed in large measure, does not exempt that person from other aspects of common menschlechkeit. I am MOST impressed with my friend’s son, a married man with three children, who spent five years learning in E”Y in a choshuve Yeshivah, then remained in Kollel and continues learning, BUT when he sees me, he makes a point fo coming over to me to ask me how my family and I are doing, will open a door for me, and is MOST appreciative if I would do the same for him. being a yeshivah bochur did not change his middos tovos, and it should not change it for anyone else, either. Unless they never had good middos to begin with.
I try to hold doors open for anyone of any gender, religion or race, and I simply do not find that frum people are half as obnoxious as they’re being made out to be in this thread. Maybe I bump into completely different people than everyone else here.
apushatayid: +1
Oomis. You simply misunderstood what I was getting at. There is no hetter to be an obnoxious boor, rude or inconsiderate to others, with the exception of PBA, I dont think anyone disagrees. What I was simply saying, is that the coffee room is chock full of threads that are quick to speak to the negatives of other frum jews and hardly any that speak to the good.
APY, thank you for the clarification. I don’t disagree with you about the “negative speak,” but I do think that when there is something positive to talk about, people generally do. All the chessed, bikur choli, tomchei Shabbos, HATZOLAH, Chaverim, Gemachs ad meod, come from frum people doing good things. We are THE most chessed filled nation in the world.
In Lakewood, I always get thanks from women when holding open a door for them. Despite looking like a yeshivishe guy.
(Just felt like injecting something positive in this thread)
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