Are things wrong cause they're wrong, or because people go OTD?

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  • #607969

    So you see lots of people evaluating different things based on the notion that they do/don’t make people go off the derech. Some examples are Rebbeim hitting/yelling/humiliating; child <deleted> abuse; having or not having secular studies in school; women’s “rights” issues, etc.

    Is that a factor that should be taken into account in determining whether something is a good or bad idea? What if abuse is bad, but it keeps people on the derech? What if Rebbeim hitting is good, but it makes people go off?

    #924317

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I guess it depends on how much good it does compared to the bad. In my opinion, though, if they were good, they wouldn’t cause people to go off.

    #924318

    mdd
    Member

    Da’as Yochid, I beg to differ. Certain things are good. Just the the dor is not holding by it.

    #924319

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    People have choices.

    #924320

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Mdd, for example?

    I was thinking the same way, for instance, about hitting. I decided against it though, because I think that one of the reasons the dor is not holding by it is because the motivation isn’t pure, it’s too often out of anger. If it is done out of love, it won’t cause OTD.

    What do you say?

    #924321

    The terms “good” and “bad” are highly subjective, and whichever circles you go to, their meaning tend to change. It is specifically for this reason HaShem gave us the Torah, to tell us what their true defenitions are. In regards to hitting/yelling etc. This too is subjective. This depends on both the one on the receiving end AS WELL as the one on the giving end.

    #924322

    playtime
    Member

    We used to be eggs- the more we were boiled the firmer we became.

    Now we’re like glass. “fragile, handle with care.”

    #924323

    mdd
    Member

    D.Y., parents do not have to walk on eggs around their chidlren — they are supposed to be in charge. Chazal did hold of hitting and “zrok morah be’talmidim”. Somehow in previous doros they did not examine the kavonos of melamdim under microscope. Etc.

    #924324

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Mdd, they still don’t have to walk on eggshells, and can still be in charge. This doesn’t cause OTD. Most OTD, from what I understand, is caused by abuse. Normal discipline is not abuse.

    #924325

    Hitting? You mean melamdim hitting talmidim or the class oisvorf beating up the melamed (a level which we have probably reached by now)?

    #924326

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    ppl go otd for various reasons.. the answer is to strenghen our kids emunah so if they get influenced theyll have the answers to continue in the path of mitzvos..

    #924327

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Emunah issues don’t usually cause otd. Emotional trauma does, and the emunah questions are a defense mechanism.

    #924328

    ShiraTobala
    Member

    I don’t think it’s good for Rebbeneim to hit….

    #924329

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Teach with simcha. Parent with simcha. Learn. Daven. Do mitzvos. all with Simcha. It is azechus to be a Yid. It is a privilege to live with Torah. Simcha!!! Then if they go OTD you can honestly say “my hands did not spill this blood”. Then love them more, and hopefully they will return.

    #924330

    morahmom
    Participant

    A rebbe hitting a talmid is NEVER “good”.

    #924331

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Morahmom, do you mean that in our generation it is never good, or that it never was good, in any generation?

    #924332

    MorahRach
    Member

    Rabbaim.. Wonderful post. I especially like the end.

    #924333

    oomis
    Participant

    A rebbie is committing an assault if he hits a child (UNLESS he is actually defending himself FROM an assault by that student, chas v’sholom). If he hits that child, he is legally liable, and can be arrested. Children learn through ahavas Torah not through the fist. As to OTD, no one, single thing is responsible for that, but for certain, animosity and abuse of any kind will SURELY push that child in that direction. Some manage to survive in spite of it, but so many do not.

    #924334

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Things are wrong because they’re wrong, even if no one goes OTD as a result.

    #924335

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    What about hitting people who go off the derech?

    #924336

    mdd
    Member

    Ladies(Morahmom,Shira…), Chazal openly said not like you.

    D.Y.,real abuse is real abuse. Nevertheless, certain things which are considered abuse are really not. It just these days (because of yeridas ha’doros), the olam does not hold by it — you can’t really punish anybody or rebuke people.

    Advise given to people on how to talk to their children is also tilted in the direction of excessive leniency. Again, because of yeridas ha’doros you can’t tell anybody what to do.

    #924337

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Mdd, I think we’re in agreement, at least for the most part.

    #924338

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Oomis,

    A rebbie is committing an assault if he hits a child (UNLESS he is actually defending himself FROM an assault by that student, chas v’sholom). If he hits that child, he is legally liable, and can be arrested.

    Do you define things as secular law does, or as the Torah does? If CH”V bris milah would be banned, would you say, “A mohel is committing assault if he circumcises a child. He is legally liable, and can be arrested, and the parents as well, for allowing such a barbaric act to be done to their child.”?

    The reason it is no longer acceptable to hit a child is because it doesn’t usually achieve the desired result, as a consequence, as mdd says, of yeridas hadoros. It’s not because it’s inherently wrong.

    #924339

    Is it true that Emunah is “just an excuse”? Isn’t it possible that there is or needs to be more than one factor before someone goes off? I.e. people who were abused will go off, but only if they also don’t have emunah. Or people with no emunah will go off, but only if they’ve also been abused?

    #924340

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    PBA: Isn’t that what the Hagada tells us to do? OTOH all the divrei Torah excuse it away somehow.

    #924341

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Is it true that Emunah is “just an excuse”?

    Yes. Hashem created us as ma’aminim by default. Something must go wrong for someone to become a kofer.

    I don’t mean that there can’t be legitimate questions, but an emotionally healthy person has a very different approach to the answers.

    #924342

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Isn’t that what the Hagada tells us to do? OTOH all the divrei Torah excuse it away somehow.

    Think about what mdd said.

    #924343

    artchill
    Participant

    Veltz Meshuganner: Some examples are Rebbeim hitting/yelling/humiliating

    Where in Shulchan Aruch or ANY halachah sefer is a Rebbe humiliating a student permitted?

    What if abuse is bad, but it keeps people on the derech?

    How many kids do you know stayed on the derech because of the abuse they endured?

    Torah 613: False, blunt his teeth is NOT literal rather blunt his arguments. Know Torah well enough to shred his hashkafah questions. Jews aren’t into violence.

    #924344

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    i think ppl go otd for reasons having NOTHING to do w judiasm. so why then? cuz of emotional isssues or issues w family situations or frends.. not cuz they wake up one day and think monkeys r running the world.. one situation w my frend going off the derech is prob xuz her parents r soo overly over protective.. get it?

    #924345

    Artchill: It was meant to be a hypothetical, not something that you see every day. But it’s not that hard to conceive of something that would keep someone observant but which might be the wrong thing. Threaten to disinherit them. Or even better, threaten to do something legitimately illegal or unethical but that you know you could get away with.

    #924346

    adams
    Participant

    From what I have seen, my sons friends who are OTD, were not achieving success in learning, in any way. So they would not be insprired at all in learning Limudei Kodesh, so this influenced their next steps, in my experience, knowing these boys since they were babies. Whether they are physically abused or mentally, iow, the Yeshiva where he went, does not hit, but treated the non achiever like garbage in many ways. If this could be fixed relatively easy, it would help alot.

    Probably you may find a strong learner who is OTD, but I would say the majority not.

    #924347

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    cuz strong learners feel SUCCESS and non strong ones DONT so they have low self essteem as a result and go otd either to get att or to be frends w the “cool” otd guys.. wow i shud be a physcologist!!!!

    #924348

    ShiraTobala
    Member

    I have friends who are OTD but, i’m not going OTD B”H

    #924349

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    shiratobala-

    so why x u get help for them and be a good frend? set them up to talk to a rabbi… do it for them and theyll thank u one day for saving thei lives..

    #924350

    MorahRach
    Member

    There can be sooo many factors. Abuse is/can be just one. I also think it’s bold to say that a person who has questions about Judaism has no emunah, unless I misread. Throughout my life I have had questions here and there, but bH my questions were answered. If someone comes to a rebbe, parent or teacher with a question, and is shushed or ignored, what message does that send? Even now sometimes I will have questions about something or some Halacha that I mamish do not get the reason for and my husband bH always takes the time to talk it out with me. I am so thankful tht he is so knowledgable. My husband Btw had amazing beyond amazing rebbes in israel. He “rebelled” a bit after high school and parties etc shana alef, shana beis he really connected with his rebbeim who never made him feel worthless or like Gd didn’t love him. He still has very good relationships with them, some came from israel to out Ny wedding. I think it all depends on if you are taught with love or not, and if you Have someone learning with you and teaching you, who actually cares about YOU.

    #924351

    The little I know
    Participant

    There a few facts that some here seem to have missed.

    1. The obligation to discipline emanates from the mitzvah of hocheyach tochiyach. The mesilas Yeshorim spells out that this mitzvah is hinged on the outcome. If rebuke has positive effect, then doing so fulfills a mitzvah. If it causes a backlash, then the mitzvah is to remain silent. Our chinuch systems appear hell-bent on doing something, otherwise it is tantamount to approval. This premise is faulty. Meanwhile severe forms of punishment, or those unrelated to the “crime” teach nothing and usually backfire. Such “dsicipline” is actually abuse and not al pi Torah.

    2. It became recognized many years ago that the OTD kids were being mislabeled as “drop outs”. Actually, they are “throw outs”, and there will be much to pay on Judgment day for the spiritual murder of these neshamos.

    3. Yes, Emunoh issues are excuses. However, the questions are generally legitimate, and deserve answers. One main reason our “system” bases severe rejections on these “questions of faith” is because we (the system) don;t have the answers. If any mechanech(es) would try to answer the questions on Emunoh as they would about nuances of current questions in Hilchos Shabbos, they would discover their own real issues, or perhaps save a child from slipping into the abyss of OTD.

    #924352

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    However, the questions are generally legitimate, and deserve answers.

    Not if they are asked lekanter.

    #924354

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    DY and Artchill: One’s students honor is supposed to be as important to them as his own. We agree on this point.

    #924355

    The little I know
    Participant

    DY:

    Questions “lekanter” are not real questions. They require responses, but not necessarily answers. Regardless, for one’s own emunoh, one needs to have the answers or to go look for them. Maybe the questions that are asked “lekanter” are issues the rebbe, teacher, or parent needs to explore, and Hashgochas Hashem placed that before them to do just that.

    Being involved in the issue, it is rather clear that most questions are not truly “lekanter”. Rather they are an expression of pain and rejection that is being converted into an intellectual question. The judgment of “lekanter” is quite often inaccurate, and is (as would be discovered in a true cheshbon hanefesh) the adult’s own defensiveness. In fact, nearly all “rebellious” behavior is actually an expression of pain, not true rebellion. The Kotzker stated that the true “Apikores” is a rarity. Most are simply using intellectual sounding issues to justify fulfillment of their own taavos.

    #924356

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    what dus lekanter mean? out of anger?

    #924357

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Purplicious – just for the sake of arguing, not for a constructive purpose.

    #924358

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    Okay thanks!! No one was saying… What shoresh is the word? Never heard of it.. It’s Hebrew?

    Ahh such good spelling everyone!!

    #924359

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    I dunno, I think that stam arguing over ideas can sometimes be constructive… 🙂 I would say that it has more of a connotation of incitement (like a troll’s argument).

    #924360

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    OOM is right, it does have a connotation of incitement.

    #924361

    mdd
    Member

    Artchill, totally false! It was not meant to be hypothetical! That’s the type of lies some say these days! Al pi Halocha, one is allowed to hit a rashah. It is not always wise though.

    Rebbe said about Levi, his talmid:”It appears to me he has no brains in his head!”.Sounds strong, does it not?

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