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During my prolonged summer vacation in a known bungalow colony I was stunned to see the filth surrounding my bungalow, from ices wrappers, to chips wrappers, to fathers sitting around on friday eating chulent with everything discarded around them, and the mothers were no better. How could we accept the children to be clean when we lead by example.
And the filth we lived in was horrifying. Much to my dismay, when visiting friends in various other colonies I saw the same level of filth. Who is to blame for all this?? We are Quantatively, how many times did you scold you child not to leave wrapper on the floor and to clean up after themselves? How many times did YOU clean up after yourself?
This makes me wonder when looking at the neatly manicured houses right next to our colony as to what they thought about us? I was embarassed and though no wonder they hate us!!!!!
What do you think?
I think the headline of this topic is very inappropriate!
FYI,GOYIM can be just as untidy and disheavled. This is aquestion of education, not religion or denomination!
Hope springs eternal. From the ashes the Phoenix rises!!!
You know the story about the rabbi’s advice about adding goats to the house and then the relief when you let them out? Try coming to Bnei Brak or Geulah first, you’ll think your bungalow colony was squeaky clean after that.
Also, with all due respect this time, I think you would rather “expect” the children to be clean, not “accept” the children to be clean. Different words, different meanings, it pays to know them.
I think that while you may be right about the filth, I can’t stand when people attribute every problem to the fact that we are Jewish. It’s one thing for Goyim to think that, but please don’t be a SELF HATING JEW. If people are nasty it is not BECAUSE they are Jewish but DESPITE it. If people are Dirty it is not BECAUSE they are Jewish but DESPITE it. If people cheat on their taxes it is not BECAUSE they are Jewish but DESPITE it. You get the picture.
And don’t say no wonder they hate us. Throughout the generations we were persecuted and the Gedolim, Tanaim, Amoraim, and Geonim were not speared! (Think about the Churban, the ten Tanaim that were killed in horrible ways…) There is no REASON that the Goyim hate us. it is just a Halacha in the Torah and so it is nature. Of course we must do our best not to ignite the spark of hate in their hearts and to try to find favor in their eyes.
before I read your diatribe, I was quite shocked to see the title that you gave it. even the quotes around dirty do not lesson the impact.
You may very well raise valid points, however, calling the B;nai Yisrael a dirty nation is not accetable. Perhaps you could have entitiled your comments “are we setting a good example” or some other such title.
nameless: When I submitted my post, your excellent post did not yet appear.
I think the title was perfect. It grabbed our attention, and the OP raises a very valid point; many Orthodox Jews seem not to care about the local community values when it comes to maintaining our yards. And while indeed there is a big difference between correlation and causation, when this feature of Orthodox Jewish life appears to be widespread, one begins to wonder if it reflects a cultural more`.
While the name of this thread is disgusting, at best, the point raised is certainly a valid one.
I spent the summer in South Fallsburg. The small local park has a do not litter sign written in 2 languages. English and yiddish
The local court house also has a large sign about littering. This sign too is in 2 languages, english and yiddish.
Md Levine,
Thanks for the compliment, but can you please tell me the ‘valid’ point which were rasied in this tacky post? To me, its shocking enough if ONE individual scribbles up such bogus drivel, now I notice, its a COUPLE!!!!
It happens to be that we had rented a car this summer wher a goy had driven it previously. The guy at the rental said it was returned a total fiasco and that we would never believe how it looked before. There were peanut shells all over the place, burnt out cigarettes etc. The car stunk to high heaven.
Ofcourse we are responsible to keep every thing in order, but its not a Jewish sickness a t all, its individual.
‘Frumcouple’
Your post and your TITLE is nothing short of unconstructive LH. If you wanted to make this point(which is relevant to all) you should have done so WITHOUT labelling Jews the way you did!
Cantoresque AND whoever else want to join hands with this ‘charming’ team,
If you feel you can improve in your standards of cleanliness , speak for yourselves and DONT lump in the rest of us!
JD,
The reason those signs were included in Yiddish is simply because they want Chassidim to understand the rules, not because they think the message applies to them more than to others!!
Thanks Nameless. I already don’t liter, not in my yard or anywhere else. I don’t allow my children to either, and I hold them responsible for their guests. Guess what? Over the summer I frequently heard my five year old daughter tell her friend to pick up her candy wrappers and not throw it on the ground. I hate to say it, but drive around Rockland County and compare the state of yards in areas of smaller frum concentration with those of great frum presence.
Cantoresq:
Perhaps people have better things to spend their money on, like tuition? I think even you agree that paying tuition is better than paying some illegal to mow your lawn.
Agree with nameless on the signs.
The point is valid though, we should be better than others and make sure to clean up after ourselves, not to do so is a Chillul Hashem.
BTW, this may be part of the “bungalow mentality” that you are off for the summer and why should cleaning be any different?
I don’t really have much to say on the topic that is being discussed here. But i was reading what “intellegent” wrote and i have to disagree. The reason that the GOYIM hate is us is not for no reason, and it is not just because it is a halacha in the torah.
The reason why the GOYIM hate us is plain and simple…..they are infinitely jealous of the fact that we have the torah and they don’t. They are jealous of the fact that we have the emes of Ha’kadosh Baruch Ho’s torah and that they have absolutely nothing. Especially the arabs who are the sons of Yishmael and where the sons of avraham avineu also….they where so close to getting the torah…they where Avrahams children also but the torah was given to us Zerah Yitzchak….that is the only reason they hate us and there is nothing that they can do about it.
It is very simple, those colonies that have bungalows rented out to people may not be so clean, as the people just rent, so they may not really care about the place as they don’t own it. The colonies I have visited such as Castle Hill, Moonlight, etc. are owned by private individuals and are very clean. This is how some people are, if they don’t own it, they don’t care. they toss their litter on the floor, throw garbage out of car windows, and leave their picnic lunch remnants on the grass. Others clean up after themselves. It is funny, but at a restaurant I actually have to make an effort not to clean up the table when i leave but leave it for the staff. so not everyone is a pig. all we can do is work on ourselves.
I find it distressing that the small town in America that I live in,
is far cleaner than Yerushalayim Ir Hakodesh.
gavra_at_work
Member
Cantoresq:
Perhaps people have better things to spend their money on, like tuition? I think even you agree that paying tuition is better than paying some illegal to mow your lawn.
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Gavra:
Here’s a great idea. MOW YOUR LAWN YOURSELF!!! No one is entitled to a gardner and inability to afford one does not pater you from tending to your home and yard. Sheesh!!!
to Goan Atzum. If that were the case, all they would have to do is convert!!
yes you are right all the goyim have to do is convert. But the issue here is three fold, firstly there is something called “Kochoes Hanefesh” (very very loosely translated that means subconscious), and the goyim don’t realize that that is the reason that they hate us is because we have the emes and they don’t, they just know that they hate us. Secondly, because the previous generations hated us so much cause we have the torah and they don’t they brought up the next generations to hate us just because we are jews. and lastly they would take on the torah but we all know the famous song and medrash…
HASHEM GAVE US A PRESENT DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT WAS
HE GAVE US THE TORAH THAT’S WHAT IT WAS
HE ASKED THE OTHERS NATIONS DO YOU WANT THIS GIFT OF MINE
THEY SAID NO THANK YOU FOR TORAH THERE’S NO TIME
SO TO BNEI YISROEL HASHEM DID GO
WE SAID NASEH VINISHMAH AND WE WILL LOVE IT SO
or something of that sort…meaning that they can’t deal with the torah because it goes against there nature Hashem asked yishmael do you want the torah and he asked what was in it and Hashem said “you can’t murder” and they said “Forget it i can’t deal with such stringent laws” so although they may recognize they we are the Am Ha’Nivchar and that we are the chosen people they just can’t bring themselves to convert.
Goan,
Thank You again. One clarification, I believe the bnei Yishmael was told they could not steal, and they said No. And it was the bnei Eisev who were told you could not kill and they said No.
People, this topic is not about anti-Semitism. It’s about adhereing to commuinal standards of conduct. There is nothing in the torah that forbids us from keepiing our homes and yards clean. There is an issue chamur is propogating a chilul Hashem in any arena however. Hamayvin yavin. Vehaeino mavin, lo yihyeh lo chelek v’nachala b’soich ha suburbia asher Hashem nosein lachem.
Nameless: the valid point is clean-up after yourself and train your children to do the same. The title left much to be desired.
sadly, there are several people who look only to find bad in Yidden and such a title by someone who calls themselves “frumcouple” only adds fuel to their always burning fire.
Goan Atzum,
You’re right that they do not hate us for “nothing”. I was just trying to bring out a point that people (particularly jews) should not legitimize (is that a word?) the Goyim’s hate to us. Exactly as you say, they hate us because of their Jealousy of our Torah and moral life, not because of anything that we do.
cantoresq,
This topic was SUPPOSED to be about cleanliness but I think the way this Topic was worded by FrumCouple calls for a discussion of a much deeper and more important topic.
This topic was SUPPOSED to be about cleanliness but I think the way this Topic was worded by FrumCouple calls for a discussion of a much deeper and more important topic.
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Only if you want to avoid this important topic.
Nameless. There are plenty of Hispanics in South Fallsburg. They live there all year too. Why dont they need the subtle reminders that the yiddish speakers do? Is their English comprehension worse than those who speak yiddish? Lets call a spade, a spade.
‘Lets call a spade, a spade.’
You want to tell me that Hispanics are tidier than Jews? Please, they probably assumed that for them English would be sufficient,,,
Only if you want to avoid this important topic.
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No, Not only if you want to avoid this important topic. We can do both. Why doesn’t someone start a new topic on what we are discussing here (bashing frum Jews) and we can continue on this topic discussing ideas on how to keep our and others’ properties clean.
Dont assume. To quote someone famous (but will leave him nameless, because it will lead to a red herring of a topic) “never assume, because when you assume you make an A*S out of U and ME”. There are many informational signs in spanish throughout Sullivan County, including South Fallsburg.
The answer to why the sign was printed in english and yiddish, according to a frum Yid who lives there all year is that the impression of the locals is that the “hasidics” are litterbugs. Right or wrong, is irrelevant right now. The fact is that is their impression and we should be making a better impression.
“Legitimize” is an intelligent word. However, intellegent is not a legitimate word. A name, yes, but not a word.
Cantor/lawyer:
Mowing the lawn yourself assumes you have the time and ability (it is one of the things I can and enjoy doing myself, B”H). It also takes investment in the proper tools, which many people can not afford.
“There is an issue(r) (sic) chamur is propogating a chilul Hashem in any arena however.”
Agreed 100%, as per previous post. That is the issue here, whether the question was well worded or not.
intellegent: They also hate us for having nicer summer homes than they have year round. What do you expect from a non-jew when we can’t control our own kinnah and feel the need to keep up with the Cohens? And yes, we as a commmunity may be paying for the actions of the rich in this case; not because of our religion, but because of the wealth of a few and stereotypes.
This is a message to you married women:
Do you know where little boys learn to litter? From their fathers.
Take it from someone who stays after shul is over to clean the tables from used tissues and other mess that are left by the holy mispalilim. Yich! Besides being disgusting, it’s a bezayon to the kovod of the bais haknesses.
It’s the same people who don’t put back sidurim and other s’forim. They feel that they’re doing you a favor by coming to learn or davin. They should clean up after themselves too?
And women, I have a feeling they are also this way at home.
blue shirt,
So you just legitimized my intellIgence despite my misspelling of intellEgent. (I spell-checked AFTER I set up my username. Since then I’ve been waiting for a truly intellIgent person to say something and you are the first!)
“A name, yes, but not a word.”- Fragment; consider revising!
intellegent: They also hate us for having nicer summer homes than they have year round. What do you expect from a non-jew when we can’t control our own kinnah and feel the need to keep up with the Cohens? And yes, we as a commmunity may be paying for the actions of the rich in this case; not because of our religion, but because of the wealth of a few and stereotypes.
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gavra_at_work
On that I agree with you 100%. I heard a meaning of “Pnu Lachem Tzafona” does not only literally mean to go North, but to turn into hiding, meaning not to flaunt our wealth.
(I try hard not to litter!)
gavra_at_work
Member
Cantor/lawyer:
Mowing the lawn yourself assumes you have the time and ability (it is one of the things I can and enjoy doing myself, B”H). It also takes investment in the proper tools, which many people can not afford.
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If one can’t afford or is unwilling to maintain his home and yard up to community standards, he should not own the home.
Intellegent: We may disagree on many issues, but you made me laugh, thank you. Yes, I used a fragment, consider it revised. And yes, “Fragment; consider revising.” is also a fragment! I’ll consider that to have been revised too.
While I am on the topic and without any intention to denigrate anyone, I was under the impression that in the United States, all children are taught the English language till 12th grade. It seems also that everyone there and in particular the writers to YWN use the English language to express their thoughts. All major Jewish publications are in English. All day to day documents are in English. Day to day life is in English.
How is it then, that many of the writers on this site, male and female, are incapable of stating a coherent English sentence with proper spelling? Why the need for spellcheck for relatively simple words? How could someone write some ware when they mean somewhere? ( I have some ware in my house, but those pots and pans are not for sale.) If I would write that I am chomir chabiss you would know I do not. If I wrote that I learned in Brrisc, you would know that I did not. If I wrote that I am phroom, you would know I am not. Spelling is important. I hope my message is clear, and I apologize if anyone is offended, I have no intention of offending anyone.
cantor/lawyer
tell that to all the subprime homeowners! See what I said about Kinnah.
Blue shirt,
I make YOU laugh???
LOL! 😀
I new yu wud pik up on the phakt tat “Fragment; consider revising.” is a fragment! (But isn’t that how Microsoft Word writes it? Also, come to think of it, it may be correct, because it is divided by a semi-colon. I’m not sure though if a semi-colon can only divide two full sentences or a fragment and a full sentence. You let me know!)
Also I think a lot of the misspellings and grammar mistakes are due to carelessness rather than lack of knowledge.
That’s your problem right there! You’re using Microsoft! The Mac will treat you much better.
Oh, and the Mac is smarter too 😉
Blue Shirt: Way to go! You de’ man!
Spelling is important. Grammar is important. Irrespective of the language. Whether it be Yiddish, English, Cantonese, or Urdu. (pardon the fragments)
If you walk, you should strive to walk straight. If you sing, you should strive to sing in tune. If you speak or write, YOU SHOULD STRIVE TO SPEAK AND WRITE PROPERLY! It is an abomination how some of us don’t CARE ENOUGH to attempt to speak and write properly. It drives me nuts!
Whew!
“I was under the impression that in the United States, all children are taught the English language till 12th grade.”
The word you meant to use is “until” (or “’til”).
I’m usually no better, but couldn’t resist here. 😉
LeiderLeider…,
Can you start a post about speaking and writing properly?
Everyone can bring up different things that they notice everyone does wrong! It can be fun and educational! I am afraid to do it because maybe I will make a mistake and then everyone will laugh at me, not to mention my username…
I actually just started a different post; a bit of a confusing one, but it should wake up the “Oilem” as they say. I hope. I don’t see it appearing yet. I presume the moderators are reviewing it to determine if it meets their ethical standards.
Yes. I agree. We should have a post concerning proper use of English – or any other language for that matter.
If you start the post, I shall back you up! I promise. Don’t worry about improper grammar or misspellings. The point is not that we all have to be perfect. The point is that we should at least TRY to attain some level of perfection.
intellegent – I was under the impression, that your username was either your real name, or you were purposely trying to be contradicting in a humorous way.
I think some people read too deep into the usernames, here on YW. Just because someone’s name is Rabbi, Dr, or Scooby Doo, doesn’t necessarily mean that is who they are.
This is an online forum, most of which should not be taken seriously.
Not to be annoying, but, “till” is the correct way of spelling, “until,” in a short term.
🙂
yoshi –
No problem, I started it. :p
According to the “authority”, it is an acceptable variant of “until”, either as a preposition or as a conjunction.
source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/till
I lost points on an English composition for this literary infraction a
long
long
long
time ago, so it stuck in my mind.
TO INTELLIGENT PAGE 2 YOUR 3RD POST..THAT VORT IS IN ‘KLEI YAKOR’ ON THAT PSUK.DVORIM 2 POSUK 3
Yoshi,
About my username, I misspelled it by mistake to be perfectly honest, and noticed very soon after.
About the untill, till, until, til business, I was going to mention it in my last post but forgot.
To my knowledge, the correct spelling is UNTIL and TILL. They are both words.
Yanky55 (from page 1 of this thread):
Rashi in Rosh Hashana addresses your very point.
On Daf 32b D”H ???????? (top of the wide lines at the bottom of the amud) Rashi says: “???? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?????” (“Once Yerushalayim was destroyed, the Chachamim saw no need to beautify it.”)
Sorry it took me so long to answer you, I had to find the exact source.
Hi from the future! We are a dirty species.
Wow! An ancient thread from five years ago, and many user names ago. I must have missed it. Indeed it is a sore wound. In EY it is common knowledge that Haredi influx brings trash. In my immediate area two new “gananot” cropped up. These are women that care for the “kollel orphans”. With the comings and goings of the children and parents, there are plastic cups, snack wrappers, diapers and all other manner of littering. For some of my neighbors, a dirty walkway is an affront to their sense of self. To me, eretz hakodesh should reflect some human refinements, many of which are sadly missing amoung us. What happened to the sterling ways of mussar?
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