Are women patur from mezuza?

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  • #596544

    YW Moderator-95
    Moderator

    The gemara says they are chayiv.

    But I heard there is a rishon who says they are patur.

    I can’t find it on google.

    Anyone know anything?

    #784164

    deiyezooger
    Member

    The gemarah in kidusin states very clearly (with no dispute) that they are chayov, actualy all other mitzvos asheh sheloy hazman geramah that women are chayov we learn that from mezuzah.

    #784165

    charliehall
    Participant

    Who was the rishon? I’d never heard of this one. I didn’t know that this was even a shilah!

    #784166

    YW Moderator-95
    Moderator

    Yes, the gemara does say they are chayav, and I can’t find anyone who disagrees.

    But someone told me they heard there is a rishon who says they are patur anyway. I was hoping someone here knew of it.

    #784167

    deiyezooger
    Member

    I dont thing that “someone” is right.

    #784168

    YW Moderator-95
    Moderator

    Hey! Anybody can “not know of” something. I also never heard of any rishon who argues.

    It takes someone to know of something.

    #784169

    Clairvoyant
    Member

    And what if the Rishon spoken of is non-existent. How is that point determined?

    #784170

    YW Moderator-95
    Moderator

    I suppose someone could say he had read every sefer in publication since the time of the rishonim and say there had been no such reference.

    Clearly we don’t have to worry about such a shitta until we know it exists, but you can’t know it doesn’t until then.

    #784171

    Clairvoyant
    Member

    BTW, what search syntax did you use in your attempts to google this information?

    Even if you find it exists, can we pasken from a random outlying Rishon?

    #784172

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The ???? in .?????? ?? says they are ??????, but there was a ??? ????? that ????? should be compared to ????? ???? and they should be ??????. The ???? rejects this ??? ????? based on the ???? of ???? ???? ????? which the ???? holds applies to ?????, and ???? ??? ???. The .???? ??? ?? says that the ???? of ???? ???? ????? applies to ????? ????. This is asked as a ???? by ‘???, whose answer would render women ??????. It’s not impossible that a different ????? answers the ???? differently and holds that they are ??????.

    I am not aware of any ????? who actually holds this way, though.

    #784173

    YW Moderator-95
    Moderator

    DY: thanks, I’ll look up other rishonim there.

    #784174

    R Shmuel
    Member

    I do not understand this question. It is a Mishna in Berachos 20 that clearly says they are chayav in mezuzah. This is not even a dispute. This Halacha is also brought down clearly in Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 291-3, as well in Rambam mezuzah 5 -10.

    #784175

    BasYisroel94
    Participant

    What’s the mitzvah of mezuza?

    To kiss it as you walk thru the door?

    #784176

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Why would they be patur, I don’t understand. A mezuza is a din in the cheftza (house) not the gavra (woman)

    #784177

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I do not understand this question. It is a Mishna in Berachos 20 that clearly says they are chayav in mezuzah.

    Correct.

    This Halacha is also brought down clearly in Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 291-3, as well in Rambam mezuzah 5 -10.

    Also correct, but that doesn’t mean no rishon holds differently (which is highly unlikely anyhow, since he would have to find a diyuk in a different mishna, which argues on the one you mentioned from Berachos, and pasken like it).

    What’s the mitzvah of mezuza?

    To kiss it as you walk thru the door?

    To attach it to the doorway.

    #784178

    YW Moderator-95
    Moderator

    Ok, I looked through the ???? on that gemara in shabbos, and didn’t find anything.

    #784179

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why would they be patur, I don’t understand. A mezuza is a din in the cheftza (house) not the gavra (woman)

    The ???? in two places, .?????? ?? and :???? ?? has a ??? ????? that they should be ??????. The ???? does not answer that it’s a ??? in the ????.

    #784180

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    mbachur,

    That’s precisely why they would be Patur. Since the Mitzva is for the owner of the house that would make it the husband’s Chiyuv. If a woman is living alone then she, being the owner, is the one Mechuyav.

    #784181

    deiyezooger
    Member

    If there is no shitah in Mishnah and gemarah that say they are not chayov how can there be a rishon who says against a gemarah with no other gemarah supporting him?

    #784182

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    95,

    Actually, you would have to find someone in ?????, because it’s a ???? ??????!

    #784183

    YW Moderator-95
    Moderator

    Well I was hoping to find someone who disagreed with that answer in tosfos you mentioned.

    #784184

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Haleivi,

    The reason she would have been ????? would either be because of a ???? to ????? ???? or from a ???? of ???? ??? ???? (as per the two gemaras I quoted). Otherwise, as ???? ??? ??? ???? ????, she would be, (and, in fact is) ?????.

    #784185

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    95,

    I know, I also looked (in ??????), and realized as I was going along that the ???? probably never meant it as a real ??? ????? (based on the ???? in ?????).

    #784186

    YW Moderator-95
    Moderator

    DY: Yes, I highly doubt I’ll find anything. But it was worth a shout out to the CR.

    #784187

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    95,

    You friend may have mistaken the ????’s ??? ???? as a ???? ???????, or confused the ???? ????? ????? with ?????, which women don’t do.

    #784188

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It was worth it, if nothing else, for the discussion, and research we did!

    #784189

    YW Moderator-95
    Moderator

    That’s possible. (To what my friend thought)

    That’s so. (To our research making it worth it.)

    #784190

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, that’s what I thought you meant. 🙂

    #784191

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    DY,

    I’m starting to remember something about that, thanks for the memory jog

    #784192

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Daas Yochid,

    I was saying that if he saw someplace that Noshim are indeed Patur, the only context he would have seen it would be that it is usually not her Chiyuv, unless she’s living alone.

    As for the Gemara, as you said, it was not a Hava Amina, only a question as to why it is not the case. The Gemara in Kedushin, though, is talking before we established that Zman Grama is a Ptur.

    #784193

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I was saying that if he saw someplace that Noshim are indeed Patur, the only context he would have seen it would be that it is usually not her Chiyuv, unless she’s living alone.

    I guess I misunderstood your point; sorry.

    As for the Gemara, as you said, it was not a Hava Amina, only a question as to why it is not the case.

    Yes, that’s what I meant when I wrote “I know, I … realized as I was going along that the ???? probably never meant it as a real ??? ????? (based on the ???? in ?????).

    The Gemara in Kedushin, though, is talking before we established that Zman Grama is a Ptur.

    Actually, I think your previous point is valid for the ???? in ?????? as well (which also knew ???? in ?????).

    #784194

    Chacham
    Participant

    I found a griz brought in nesivas hakodesh on menachos 34a dh veha that asks from the mishna in brachos that an eved kenani is chayav in mezuza. how can that be. the gemara is mevuar that it is a chovas hasocher v’ain kinyan l’eved . so he answers The chiyuv is not talui in his kinyan in the huse. It is talui on for whom the house was meyuchad for. so even if it is only for avadim they are a dweller and will be mechayav in mezuza

    for a full cover on this sugya ( chiyuv on socher) look in the mesivta in otzar iyunim maareches 17 .1 .2

    #784195

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It is possible for an Eved to own a house. If someone gives him a present on the condition that his boss does not get it, it will belong to the Eved. As for the Chiddush itself, perhaps the fact that the Chiyuv is only if you are living in the house for 30 or more days, would point to that direction.

    #784196

    charliehall
    Participant

    “If there is no shitah in Mishnah and gemarah that say they are not chayov how can there be a rishon who says against a gemarah with no other gemarah supporting him?”

    In some cases there are tanaitic sources outside of the mishnah that might disagree with the mishnah and gemara. An example is the case for women reading the megillah: There is a tosefta that can be interpreted as it being a problem for a woman to read the megillah for a man even though the mishnah and bavli definitively rule that a man can fulfill the mitzvah by hearing a woman read. Rishonim disagree and the machloket continues to this day, with the majority of Ashkenazic acharonim siding with the Rema, and Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef ignoring the Rema (as he should — he is Sefardic!) and ruling that l’chatchila a woman can read for a man.

    #784197

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    charlie: The thing is, it’s very rare to find a place where a sizable number of rishonim follow a tosefta over the mishnah, bavli and yerushalmi. The case you quote is one of the exceptions that proves the rule.

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