Are you allowed to give Tzeddakah/charity to Non-Jews

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  • #1994141

    On sneezing in general:
    many people would not normally go sneezing around to shul or office before COVID. Not just moris ayn, just kavod habriyut. Cultures might differ.
    publicly quoted experts say that it is generally not possible to differentiate between COVID and less harmful viruses based on external symptoms, so your friends did the right thing to go test. I am thinking it is true only one way: if you have a cold, you don’t know what it is. But I heard some COVID cough that does not sound like anything I ever heard, and especially from that particular person.

    #1994152
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, My Degree is in Safety Engineering with my minor being in industrial hygiene, i have done many years of air sampling etc, however when it came to actual plans we brought in a CIH and ME. I also ask my Rov shailos and dont pasken for myself, go to a dentist for fillings and surgeon it get operated on.
    “I read up specifically on airflows [some of the work published last year was fascinating – such as measuring air flows in simulated airplanes] and did some experiments myself in several offices and shuls to measure CO2, particle levels – that are proxies for how much air re-circulates and particle level indicates how much air is filtered and and how much comes from outside ”
    To say that becuase you read up on something makes you a boke in the subject is so absurd like having a crossing guard head the traffic depatment because he/she helped children cross the street

    #1994151

    I am not sure what you are trying to say with, “go sneezing around”. I find you tend to use animalistic/derogatory descriptors when referring to either “black hat wearers” or people who don’t wear masks your way so I don’t feel like I have a fair picture of your situation. I will say, however, that before covid everyone sneezed and coughed in shul. And in school. And at work. People are not given time off for the week or two duration of their cold and will only take off days when it is at it’s worst. And I am NOT referring to Jewish facilities, I mean all of them. I have never worked anywhere that allowed a person to take sick days until their symptoms disappeared. The expectation (and generally followed behavior) is the use of precautions like covering your mouth when sneezing or coughing.

    #1994165

    It is a hard question when someone is sneezing occasionally or all the time. The guy I mentioned at the beginning made like 3 trips for tissues during just one shmone esre (normal speed) sneezing all the way through, without even having a foresight to grab more tissues in one run. Maybe we should measure sneezing old fashioned way – in beitzim or handkerchiefs (anyone remembers those, spellchecker just did). I would say if a person runs out of one handkerchief, he needs to go home.

    Other than kids at school, at shul or business meetings, I don’t recall seeing people with constant sneeze except rarely. Maybe it is a matter of minhag hamakom. We did not send kids to school when they were in constant use of tissues. My mother later admitted that she would sometimes (not often) tell me that I was coughing at night and should stay home when she judged I need some sleep and rest. She did not want me to think that school is optional.

    #1994176
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Boruch – i repeat, gevalt…

    He’s talking about eved cannaani, who is almost Jewish. He’s chayav in mitzvos as a woman. You’re only proving my point further.

    #1994177
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    “al hakol” clearly doesn’t mean every single person, as chaz say kol hamerachem al ha’achzari, etc, and again the halacha of ain mefakchin

    Notice how the rambam here omits the afilu akum, whereas by tzedaka he says it – must be because of darchei sholom exclusively! That by akum there’s a special reason to give tzedaka erc, irrespective of the other reasons that apply to ger toshav or avadim – and that’s darchei sholom. Your quote is a very clear diyuk – shkoyach for the proof!

    If the rambam meant the idea of chesed, or emulating hashem as applying to akum, he would have said afilu akum in hilchos avadim, or at the very least said darchei sholom( if darchei sholom means the pshat you’re saying it means) by avadim too

    #1994429
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avira, I see you have capital letters in your arsenal, so why not use it for Hashem?

    #1994465
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    C’mon, i said a good pilpul… Let me enjoy myself

    #1994482
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I would tthank Hashem for the ability given to me to say a good pilpul.

    #1994493

    Avira is using a phone that capitalize after a period. Like this. As caps are reserved in the Humash for only special occasions, Avira is too traditional to use caps where he doesn’t have a mesorah. Even if some non Jews invented the language, he thinks darkei shalom do not apply between the Jews. Rak Emes.

    #1994556
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Reb E, “I would tthank Hashem for the ability given to me to say a good pilpul.”
    Reb E for the CR of the CR!
    AAQ for the shul’s kvetch
    MOD 29 for Gabbi
    The winning Team!

    #1994568

    Maybe relevant to the topic is Netziv’s Hakdoma to Chofetz Chaim Ahavat Hesed where he talks about Hesed being a fundamental part of the world applicable to all nations, and similar ideas in Haamek Hadavar on Yaakov and Yosef

    #1994579
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Olam chesed yibaneh, it’s a pasuk.

    It doesn’t mean we throw away all of the aforementioned. We are, at times, forbidden to or discouraged from pure altruism with goyim.

    #1994583

    > We are, at times, forbidden

    ok, so when you now qualify with “at times”, hopefully everyone agrees. Not sure what others are argueing, I am not so much for altruism, I am more arguing that derech shalom, properly understood, in most cases will make you do the same things as you would do out of altruism. Shalom is not a downgrade from a “real mitzva”.

    #1994592
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The world was created and stands on chesed as the Midrash says behiborom read is as avraham.

    #1994605
    Avi K
    Participant

    Avira, what is “pure altruism”? Is there impure altruism? For that matter, what is altruism? Auguste Comte defined it as giving without a thought of receiving anything in return. Ayn Rand accepted his definition and thus opposed altruism but added that getting a good feeling is a benefit and therefore giving charity in order to feel good about oneself (and presumably for a mitzvah in the case of a believing Jew, which she was not) is not altruism. Thus, she states that a man should risk his life to save his wife. Rashi, who presumably negates all charity not done for the sake of a mitzva, would probably agree with her but limit egoism to wanting to perform a mitzvah.

    #1994643
    ujm
    Participant

    Avi, does Ayn Rand say a wife should risk her life to save her husband?

    #1994674
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Is there such thing as pure altruism? It says איזהו עשיר השמח בחלקו explains the Binah Leitim that a person is truly happy personally when he makes others happy with his wealth. Making others happy makes us feel good spiritually that we were able to share our wealth and made others happy. Your personal enjoyment does not matter and is batel as being mechadesh something.

    #1994709
    Avi K
    Participant

    Ujm, if she wanted to be PC she probably would have.

    RE, you are contradicting yourself. You say that “making others happy makes us feel good spiritually” but that this does not matter. So who cares if it makes us happy. Anyway, that interpretation is a daat yachid and certainly not the peshat. The peshat is that a person who is satisfied with what he has is rich in a psychological sense.

    #1994771
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Avi, not to weigh in on a machlokes between goyim who you see as authorities on matters of hashkofa..

    Rashi says chesed shel emes by burying the deceased is so called because “aino metzapeh leteshlum gevul”, he does not expect recompense. That’s my definition.

    Chasidishe rebbes used to give a poor person tzedaka multiple times, because the first time it’s to alleviate tzaar that you feel, abd then afterwards eventually it’s totally lishma.

    When I’m talking altruism, I’m discussing chessed lishma, for the sake of helping others. Not because of promoting peace between goyim and us, and not because the goy will help you in the future, or other ulterior motives

    #1994774
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Ayn rand also believed that the “guiding moral principle of man’s life is the pursuit of his happiness”

    Lovely, truly an authority on morals and ethics

    #1994779
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Also, where does rashi “negate all charity not done for a mitzvah”

    The gemara itself says chessed leumim chatas, that chessed done by goyim is sin, because it’s just to boast and feel pride

    #1994840
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is a difference between a physical hanoah which is not batel but a spiritual haniah as above s batel because of mitzvos were not given for enjoyment see Rosh Hashana (28,1) therefore it is considered altruistic. See rhe Binah Leitim volume 2 on Pirkei Avos about being selfish.

    #1994866
    Avi K
    Participant

    RE,

    1. There is a machloket regarding deriving benefit from mitzvot. Rashi says that they are a yoke. Rashba says that the benefit is in the next world and this is not considered a prohibited enjoyment (e.g. in the case of a neder). Rand was an atheist but she might agree that even a perceived benefit negates it being altruism as the person feels good about what will come to him.

    2. The Malbim says that it is an atonement for them. That is why the word used is חטאת and not חטא.

    #1994935
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    In either case Rashi or Rashba we don’t care about spiritual enjoyment and consider the act as altruism.

    #1994934
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    One rishon holds “potrin oso miyad” by the case where every member of sanhedrin convicts by a chiyuv misa, that it means we kill him right away. The komarna rebbe in shulchan hatahor says that safek brachos lehakel means to make a bracha. Do we deal with those shitos in lractice? Not really. If there is such a malbim (source please?) It’s not what the rishonim on the gemara say, and it’s not pashut pshat. We wouldn’t use it to dismiss the idea of the gemara since it’s echoed elsewhere.

    Also, rashi on mitzvos laav lehanos nitnu can fit – he’s not (nor is the gemara on that sugya) addressing abstract feelings, but rather hanaah in the context of every case in the gemara, which refers to physical benefit.

    Rand’s theories on ethics and morals have as much place in a beis medrash as zeus and hercules

    #1994924
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Who cares about Rand? The Chasam Sofer says כפתורה ופרחיה ממנה יהיה all emgelishment and beautifying for the Torah should be from itself.

    #1994975
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Binah Leitim on the last day of Pesach based on the pasuk עולם חסד יבנה, the world was created witb chesed, not for Hashem Hiimself but for us as a king who shares his weaktb with his servants. Maybe, והלכת בדרכיו, we should emulate Him, our assignment in this world is to share our wealth with others, physical wealth and Torah knowledge.

    #1994984
    Avi K
    Participant

    Avira, it’s on the pasuk. And it is the peshat. חטאת and not חטא. Please quote your sources in the Gemara and Rishonim.

    #1994985
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avira, whether safek brachos kehakel means to make a bracha or not make bracha might be an argument between the Rambam, brachus unneeded are assur for lo sassur, so don’t make a bracha on a safek and the Rabbenu Taam, who says (Rosh Hashana 33), that women make a bracha on time dependent mitzvos because unneeded brachas are derabonon and therefore on a safek we should make a bracha. The RMA paskens like the Rosh that Chol Hamoad we should make a bracha on tefilin. The Magen Avraham paskens like the Rabbenu Taam there.

    #1994986
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avira, it says clearly that in the summer one with neder cannot tovel hmself because of personal physical enjoyment and mitzvos are not for enjoyment does not apply.

    #1994990
    Avi K
    Participant

    Avira, Rambam, in his introduction to “Shemoneh Perakim” says that he took from non-Jewish philosophers. In the Guide, he quotes Aristotle and various Molem philosophers and then contrasts them with his view. This is also a common explanation of יפת אלקם ליפת וישכון באהלי שם.
    In any case, I was discussing altruism, which is a general concept.

    I found that gemara you cited. It’s Baba Batra 10b. The maskana is Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai’s interpretation, which is what the Malbim says.

    #1995007
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Nowehere does the rambam say that YOU should learn philosophers. He actually writes in the same hakdama that he did it so that Jews wouldn’t have to search elsewhere for hashkafa – there was a lot of, aptly named nevuchim – confused people, who were into philosophy. It’s true that the rambam holds one is mekayam vehashayvosa al livavecha through philosophy, but even that’s only A) people who have filled their “stomachs with shas and poskim” and B) about yichud Hashem, which brings me to my next point – the rishonim who were busy with philosophy were studying logic and concepts to understand emunah. Nowehere does the rambam get his morals or values from Aristotle. See the first bartenura on pirkei avos – he says that avos starts off with the chain of mesorah because you shouldn’t think that ethics and morals are a free for all with the rabbis making things up as they see fit or according to their own understanding. Rather, he says, just as every other mishnah is torah she baal peh, so too are middos and ethics – purely Torah.

    That’s a huge distinction.

    #1995010
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avi K, the Rambam was like Rebbi Meir who learned from acber but we are not on his level to learn from an atheist.

    #1995015
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I know of no concept that we don’t use chazal to define. That’s a problem with looking at Torah as just laws and stories…the Torah defines for us any value…this is touching on a great divide between the yeshivos and the MO world. MO believes in “other things” outside of yiddishkeit, values that are general and not dependent on Torah. We don’t. For us, kudsha brich hu istakal beoraysoh ubara alma – everything that exists only does so because it’s in the Torah.

    Rev Eliezer; what does the halacha of tevilah have to do with my statement that abstract hanaah may not be considered such? Actually i do need to be chozer from it for a different reason. It says you can’t feed animals bosor vechalav, even if the animal is not yours, because you have hanaah from the animal eating it.

    Re, chesed leumim chatas – I’ll admit that my knowledge of the inyan was from my tanya learning days, as quoted in the end of the 1st perek, which he quotes from the arizal in aitz chaim shaar 49 when discussing the intrinsic spiritual differences between the beshomos of goyim and jews. He says that there is no true Tov, goodliness in the former, and that all the chesed that they do is to glorify themselves. It would seem that the arizal is paskening not like the maskana of the gemara in bava basra (happens to be that immediately after RYBZ, the gemara says that while it may be good for them, it is bad for us because it holds back the geulah when goyim have zchusim). I have a mahalach that the arizal can fit perfectly fine with the maskana, since if you look at the maharsha he says that the way Rebbe nechunya ben hakana(and RYBZ) read the pasuk, it’s saying that tzedaka and chesed are for yisroel, and the kaparah is for the goyim – meaning that even when yidden do lower levels of chesed not lishma, says the maharal, they count. With this we can understand the arizal – they indeed do chesed for themselves, due to their spiritual nature, but it is still a cleansing for them.

    Chatas vs chait – we find many times that chatas means sin as well….al na sashem aleinu chatas…a korban chatas itself is a sin offering..

    #1995141
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avira, I don’t understand the above halacha as the hanoah does not come from bosor bechalav but from feeding the animals. Maybe since you have a hanoah from feeding them and you don’t have to spend money on other food, you gain from bosor bechalav and have hanoah from it.

    #1995170
    Avi K
    Participant

    Avira, Rambam says to accept the truth from whoever says it. In any case, as I posted, I was referring to the meaning of a secular concept. One can certainly learn the meaning of a word from anyone. Would you reject the Merriam-Webster dictionary because it is written by non-Jews?

    #1995177
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer; according to that reasoning, selling bosor becholov also shouldn’t be an issur hanaah either. Rather, a good definition would be any benefit that comes from the use of the object, so if i use the bosor becholov to feed the dog, and that act makes me happy to see him eat it, that pleasure is coming from the use of issurei hanaah.

    #1995172

    I asked one boke about Rambam and Muslim philosophy/science, he summarized it very nicely: Rambam was not afraid to acknowledge the truth as he saw it, regardless of the source. [I hate to say it again, the gentleman is quite a traditional Chassidish bokeh before someone dismisses my source as “MO/Reform apikoires”]. While you definitely need to be careful, I don’t think we should cope out and say that only Rambam and R Meir should be doing this, we will just skip the truth if we stumble at it unless it is pre-approved. The differentiation seem to be simple conceptually as partially outlined by Avira – we trust Jewish sources in mesorah, but we trust any source of intellectual integrity on facts and logic. See an argument in Gemora somewhere between Jewish and Greek scientists whether the world was created. Greeks seemingly had a better argument that the world always existed, but Jews stayed with the Mesorah.

    #1995247
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avira, there is another expression קשה גרים לישראל כספחת, converts is bad, hurt Jews, when they convert and bring themselves close to Hashem, similarly the goyim when doing chesed hurt Jews.

    #1995261
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    No, you make money from bosor bechalav when you sell it.

    #1995273
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    In any case, the same logic applies by selling. We make money from something that should not be gotten any enjoyment from but be burried.

    #1995275
    RememberThat
    Participant

    I resent the FALSE title. It promotes hatred.

    #1995299
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The question of the OP because of their worshipping a’z but currently their is no a’z as they follow their custom, so their is a kiddush Hashem to help them.

    #1995322
    Avi K
    Participant

    RE, there are six explanations in Tosafot. One is that it is talking about false converts. This also Rashi’s opinion. Another is that they become so frum they embarrass born Jews. Another explanation is that it is very difficult to be careful about the mitzvot regarding their treatment. In fact, I heard that when Rav Scheinberg heard that a talmid in the yeshiva was a ger he trembled with fear. The Maharshal points out that in many times and places it was illegal and even punishable by death.

    #1995563
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Avi; I’m proud that you embraced part of your heritage and used a yiddish word; frum! Maybe I’m having an impact here after all

    #1995723
    Avi K
    Participant

    Avira, that is why I used the Sephardic pronunciation of מצוות. I am half Ashkenazic and half Sephardic. That, BTW, reinforces my definition of Yiddish as creole German. “Fromm” means “pious” or “religious”. Perhaps, though, מדקדק or מקפיד would have been a better choice. BTW, “Yiddish” should be capitalized. There should also be a period after “all”.

    #1995878

    RebE Rambam was like Rebbi Meir who learned from acber but we are not on his level to learn from an atheist.

    Are you quoting someone here? It sounds like an easy rationalization, you can always say that Moshe rabeinu didn’t misuse public money, but we are not at his level …

    #1995910
    Avi K
    Participant

    Always, RM learned Torah from Acher. This one cannot learn from an atheist or a non-Jew. However, one can certainly learn chochma. Does it matter what Pythagoras and Euclid believed?

    #1995992

    Avi, I never looked into what was R Meir’s motivation to learn from Acher? Did Acher have Mishnayos that others did not? Did he have his own logical approach? Maybe he was quoting Aristotle and R Meir found it as interesting as Rambam did?

    > what Pythagoras and Euclid believed?

    Personalities would not matter in pure math. A proof stands on its own. But other sciences are not that simple, especially in pre-experimental times.

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