June 7, 2018 9:53 am at 9:53 am #1535112square root of 2Participant
It seems pretty scary: global anti-semitism on the rise; tensions between EU, America, Iran, China, and other counties; the American government looking like something which belongs in South America; etc. etc.
Question 1: Are you scared?
Question 2: Is “every Jew a .22” in line with our beliefs? On the one hand, it seems it’s a reasonable hishtadlus we should take. On the other hand, does “Hakol kol yaakov vhayadayim yedei eisav” discourage such measures?June 7, 2018 11:02 am at 11:02 am #1535256NOYBParticipant
1: No. There are always crazy things happening. The world is a scary place. Just daven, and realize that most scary things don’t come to pass. IE ISIS is gone, Saddam Hussein never carried out a chemical attack on Israel, more things don’t happen than things that do.
2: The Torah encourages, even requires us to defend ourselves. If we can save our lives or those of a fellow yid, then carrying a gun is worth it. Many yidden in EY and America (outside of NY/NJ) carry guns to defend themselves and others.June 7, 2018 11:27 am at 11:27 am #1535282MenoParticipant
.22: Good for rhyming, bad for self-defense.June 7, 2018 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #1535297akupermaParticipant
You should take up reading history. If you think it is bad now, in the past it was worse. Much worse. Very much worse. I suspect the original question is from someone young enough that they don’t remember the Cold War, and that World War II was something their grandparents or great-grand-parents talked about.
As for guns, having them during a pogrom would have been nice. If one reads the accounts of the pogrom in York (really the only pogrom in an English-speaking country), they had weapons even though it was strictly illegal for Jews to bear arms (didn’t do them much good, the accounts of them are a eulogy). There were European shuls built like small fortresses with firing holes (didn’t help). It should be noted that the Poles were well armed in 1939, and it didn’t stop the Nazis. If Ha-Shem decides to destroy American Jewry, there really isn’t much you can do about. If you are worred about security, focus on davening and learning (and remember that if worse comes to worst, all you assets will be destroyed and your debts will be cancelled).June 7, 2018 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #1535316
akuperma – got it in one. HKB”H runs the show. And yes, it was much, much worse in the past. When I was a kid during the Cold War if you asked a child, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” they were likely to answer “IF I grow up….” We didn’t know from one day to the next if all of us could be incinerated because of a malfunctioning radar set or some political leader’s bad judgment.
And no, guns aren’t going to help. It’s like the guys in the militias who think that a few assault rifles could hold out against the US military tanks, helicopters and ground-to-ground missiles. They outnumber us, they always have, and that’s not going to change. 1967 was a miracle. The time-on-target air strike went off without a hitch, with HKB”H suspending Murphy”s Law for the first time in recorded history.
Yes, we are “the voice of Yaakov,” not the “hands of Eisav.” There is a big difference between the IDF defending Israel as an army of the Jewish State and your neighbor buying a .22 thinking he’s going to hold off a marauding mob. Torah, Tefillah and Tzedakah/Chesed are our only defenses. Let’s concentrate on those and leave the Rambo fantasies and trivial machlokes to other people.June 7, 2018 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1535515NOYBParticipant
Akuperma- The Poles were well armed? With the lances they used to charge tanks?
Midwest2- I won’t make a comment about how unlikely it is that a few people with rifles can defeat the US Military. However, I will note that the US Military is outnumbered almost 80-1 by gun owners. Also, it has been proven that a few armed people can stop riots, for example the Korean shop owners in the LA riots.
Obviously, Hashem controls the world and everything that happens. We have a responsibility to keep ourselves safe, and guns are a valuable tool to do that. Not to mention they can help in situations like those recently in Crown Heights.June 7, 2018 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #1536046akupermaParticipant
NOYB – Actually the Poles (and the French) were as well, or better armed, than the Germans. The Polish cavalry who charged tanks with lances knew they were committing suicide but preferred a honorable death in battle to surrendering to the Germans (who had already won). The normal role of cavalry in 1939 were as highly mobile (compared to foot soldiers) scouts. And BTW, the last American cavalry charge was in 1942. — And if one is talking about personal defense against a mugger, a gun would be useful, if one is talking about a government organized pogrom supported by the armed forces, there isn’t much we can do but flee. The right wing militias idea is they can flee to the woods and mountains, but the chance of the militia organizing itself to overthrow the government (what trigger the original British prohibition of the right to bear arms) is long gone.June 7, 2018 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1536084icemelterParticipant
Yes the world was always scary and bad and probably much worse in generations past. But calm winds are never guaranteed to remain as things can change. Besides you have to admit it’s quite disturbing to see blatant anti semites running for government positions speaking openly about how they feel regarding Jews. And all the incidents against Jews in the world and America are quite frightening especially in an age of “political correctness” and “tolerance”. It seems that the only tolerance that all the nations agree on is ganging up on the Yidden.
In a time where anyone can get their voice heard in mere minutes and slurs and hate speech can be shared across the world and spread like wildfire, it’s not a great situation when things go sour.June 7, 2018 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1536131
Gun owners outnumber the US Army 80-1? A bunch of civilians with no military training is going to take out Special Forces units? You ever see a tank up close? I have. No group of civilian “gun owners” is going to have a chance against a tank, let alone a battalion of tanks and artillery. In the Yom Kippur war the Egyptian soldiers with RPGs were able to stand up to the tanks of that time, but current tanks and APCs have been re-engineered to be proof against anything like that. We really do have the premier military establishment in the world, and to think that it could be stopped by a bunch of random guys with AK-15s is just plain delusional.
And if you have a gun in your house to protect against burglars, make bloody well sure your kids – or the neighbor’s kids – can’t get at it. Gun accidents are a major killer of children in the US. Let’s not add our own kids to that number.June 8, 2018 12:50 am at 12:50 am #1536179
It’s AR 15’s and AK 47’sJune 8, 2018 12:50 am at 12:50 am #1536178
Wouldn’t you say the same thing about the Maccabees? What chance did a poorly armed small resistance group have against the Greek army?
Or by extension any resistance group in Europe against the Nazis?
Wasn’t the American revolution similar ?
I am sure history is replete with these examples. Because it isn’t a straight numbers game. There are many factors including morale , and winning the allegiance of the people.June 8, 2018 12:50 am at 12:50 am #1536177
the op didn’t bring up a second amendment question or some scenario of us vs the us army
He brought up an end of the world scenario and a hashkafic question
In regards to all apocalyptic scenarios , the army/police are never there for the citizen. They are always busy trying to contain the violent scenario . You see this repeatedly played out during riots. The furgerson riots being the latest example. The rioters will cause and get away with a lot of lawlessness and the citizen caught in the middle will have no one to rely on but himself.
In terms of hashkafa, I have an interesting POV . Because I own guns but don’t keep them at home . For two reasons. Safety with little kids around (ie a wife who says no) but also bc I don’t like the effect it has of instilling thoughts of “koach v’atzum yudi”. Essentially, if times are ok I don’t think you should have them . But if there is clear danger then it should fall under hishtadlus.June 8, 2018 12:50 am at 12:50 am #1536168DovidBTParticipant
Gun owners outnumber the US Army 80-1? A bunch of civilians with no military training is going to take out Special Forces units? You ever see a tank up close? I have. No group of civilian “gun owners” is going to have a chance against a tank, let alone a battalion of tanks and artillery.
That’s probably true if the military were focused on a small target.
But what if the federal government tried to use the military to take over the whole country? The military forces would be widely dispersed, and a large percentage of privately owned guns among the population would be a significant deterent.June 8, 2018 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1536271RedlegParticipant
A couple of thoughts:
1. A large number of those 80 million gun owners, I would guess more than half, have served in the military themselves and have had the appropriate training. Many were Officers, some quite senior, certainly enough to organize an effective Militia. (See not 3)
2. Who says the current serving Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen or Marines would follow orders to take over the Country? Most successful uprisings have involved the mutiny of the King’s or Czar’s or Dictator’s military.
3. The reason for the adoption of the 2nd Amendment was to insure the possibility of raising a civilian militia to discourage or, if necessary, to combat a tyrannical government. In fact, this scenario actually happened here in the U.S. in living memory. (Google “Battle of Athens”)June 8, 2018 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1536331👑RebYidd23Participant
What about the Civil War?June 10, 2018 2:13 am at 2:13 am #1536472
I’m currently reading a book by Bridgette Gabriel called “why they hate”. In the book she describes her experience growing up as a Christian in Lebanon at the outbreak of the Lebanese war.
Lebanon was a democracy with a Christian majority. But once the Christians became the minority (and with Yasser Arafats help) war broke out. The Christians were left to defend themselves with local militias.
She wrote the book to warn the West that we are only at the beginning of our war with islam, as demographic shifts in Europe (and the us) will only bring the same end result unless we make some changes (haven’t gotten to that part yet)
Also had a nice conversation ( over shabbos)with a British expat who saw the writing on the wall and came here bc he doesn’t want to have to wear a cap to avoid being beaten up.
I’m sure this doesn’t help the OP with his fears.June 11, 2018 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1537345
Mentsch & Company – dream on. The vast majority of the country is not going to rise up against the government, not even in Kentucky or Idaho. And we have here a career military. Their allegiance is to the military, i.e. the government. Unless the Joint Chiefs of Staff decide to hold a military coup there isn’t any question of the military mutinying. In Israel, with a draft, and many of the officers coming from the settler movement, there might be a chance, but not here.
And please, read some history. The US passed the Second Amendment to DEFEND THE GOVERNMENT against uprisings by rebellious groups. Look up the “Whiskey Rebellion.” Go to your local library (not the internet) and ask the librarian to tell you what that was. And if you try to tell me that you can’t trust librarians because they’re part of some conspiracy, I’ll call your doctor 🙂June 11, 2018 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #1537380
BTW – the war between the Xtian West and Islamic believers has been going on since 700 CE. It heats up and cools off over the centuries but it never goes away. The struggle between Sunni and Shia Muslims has been going on for almost as long.
I heard one opinion (from the times of the Rishonim) that Islam arose as a counterbalance to Xtianity. When the Xtians persecute us we run to the Muslims (e.g. after the expulsion from Spain in 1492) and when the Muslims persecute us we run to the Xtians. Nimshal? Like Avos says, don’t get too chummy with whoever is in power, because they’re only using us for their own aims. Be friendly and respectful, but always a little suspicious, because sooner or later the weather is going to change.June 11, 2018 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #1537563Reb EliezerParticipant
Look at the Baal Haturim at the end of Parshas Chayeh Sara.June 11, 2018 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1537618
I’ve read the federalist, and have no idea how your interpretation of the second amendment jives with that.
For those unfamiliar, the federalist papers are to the constitution what the Gemara is to the Torah.
If you haven’t read them, google it , Or ask a librarian
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