Arranged Marriages

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  • #1707870

    Joseph
    Participant

    What is your opinion about arranged marriages?

    #1707898

    akuperma
    Participant

    Define “arranged”?

    Does it refer to the boy meets the girl for the first time at the wedding hall?

    Does it include when the shadchan “fixes” them up for a date, and perhaps relays messages, but all that is involved is a serious first date with someone who has been pre-checked as being acceptable? What if the “shadchan” is not a commercial shadchan, but a friends or relation?

    #1708397

    laskern
    Participant

    רב מנגיד דמקדש בלא שידוכי, קידושין יב

    #1708599

    rational
    Participant

    Stop the fake comments. We all know what an arranged marriage is.
    In a closed society that requires this as part of their culture, why not? If it works for them, it works. If you’re in it and like it, good for you. If you don’t, find another culture that fits you. However, there’s nothing Jewish about this particular custom.

    #1708679

    akuperma
    Participant

    Rational: In Hebrew, “arranged” would be “mesudar”, which suggests organized. The word shidduch applies just as much to a professional matchmaker involving people who hardly know each other (common only among the self-perceived aristocratic types), to friends and relations that make a shidduch (roughly a very heavy blind date, since the preliminary exchange of information that take up the first few dates for goyim are done before hand), to the phrase that “HaShem made the shidduch” which would suggest a random event but Jews hold that nothing that happens in this world is ever random or by coincidence.

    Among the goyim, arranged marriages usually involved children who were requried to marry for political, economic and dynastic reasons and the children involved were expect to be compliant (and in many if not most cases, the managed to fall in love and live happy lives until one of them died of something like a mild infection or childbirth as was common back them). If you learned humash Berishis and remeber Rivka Imeinu, you would know that “arranged marriages” without the parties consent are not allowed,

    #1708912

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    What is your opinion about arranged marriages?

    My opinion about arranged marriages is the same as my opinion about unarranged marriages. If it works for the couple, wonderful. If it does not work for them, then they should not do it.

    The Wolf

    #1709008

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Assur according to the Gemara. The couple has to have a choice and they must meet beforehand.

    The Satmar Rebbe Reb Yoel ZT”L put a stop to the practice many moons ago, but many Chassidim unfortunately refused to listen to his psak.

    #1709136

    Joseph
    Participant

    If you’re categorizing the standard Satmar shidduch as something other than an arranged marriage, you’ll have to explain your definition of an arranged marriage. The standard Satmar shidduch is setup with very little input (in the sense of them choosing who to — or not to — meet) from the boy and girl before the first meeting. They then meet once or twice in their home and make a decision — a decision that was generally preordained as a yes before they ever met.

    And that’s more or less the same as its done by most of the other major and minor chasiduses. The old time Sefardim also, even today, utilize something close to an arranged marriage — at a young age, even if their system does differ from the Chasidim.

    #1709383

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @joseph Then that’s not arranged. They always have a choice, even if they’re pressured into making it.

    #1709783

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    There’s a famous maaseh about the Satmar Rebbe speaking with Rav Bick. The Satmar Rebbe was upset tha tcouples were meeting 8 times before getting engaged instead of 2. Rav Bick told him, “you say 2 because you’re a mesader kiddushin. I say 8 because I’m a mesader gittin”

    #1709922

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Arranged marriages work when the person you are looking for isn’t supposed to be your soulmate, just play the role of momme to your tatte.

    #1709924

    ZionGate
    Participant

    I’m not concerned about arranged marriages.
    It’s the deranged ones that are of concern.

    #1709944

    Joseph
    Participant

    LMT: Define this nebulous concept of “soulmate”; and describe how spouses might not qualify as being considered each other’s “soulmate” despite their marriage; and how arranged marriages allegedly fits into this point.

    #1709938

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    There’s a famous maaseh about the Satmar Rebbe speaking with Rav Bick. The Satmar Rebbe was upset tha tcouples were meeting 8 times before getting engaged instead of 2. Rav Bick told him, “you say 2 because you’re a mesader kiddushin. I say 8 because I’m a mesader gittin”

    I guess they would both hate me, as I went on many more than eight dates before getting married.

    The Wolf

    #1709992

    adocs
    Participant

    All marriages are arranged.

    Someone has to reserve the hall, caterer, photographer etc…

    Can you imagine getting married without arranging any of that?

    #1710028

    Joseph
    Participant

    In the days of yore, as most of us know from many stories, the father of a small yingele would make a shidduch with the father of a small meidele when both were still in their single digits years. Several years later, not long after bar/bas mitzvah, the chasuna would take place.

    #1710110

    LerntminTayrah, “There’s a famous maaseh about the Satmar Rebbe speaking with Rav Bick. The Satmar Rebbe was upset tha tcouples were meeting 8 times before getting engaged instead of 2. ”

    Addition to the story: The Statmar Rebbe Z’L quoted possuk “Katzyi m’bnei Chais” (Rivka told Yaakov I am disgusted with the people of Chais – so get a shidduch elsewhere), using it as a witty pun Chais = 8 in Hebrew, that he, The Rebbe is disgusted with the people of “eight” dates.

    #1710116

    Joseph
    Participant

    I know Litvaks who got engaged after 2 or 3 dates.

    #1710125

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    I’m fully aware of his witty pun. But the Torah is not for witty puns.

    #1710133

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Speaking of the Satmar Rebbe and gematria puns, supposedly a gevir , way back in the 50s, told the rebbe that he’ll donate in honor of his name , Yoel which= $47.
    The rebbe reminded him that in the alter heim he was called
    Yoilish…

    #1710155

    Gedolim, Rishonim onward to pokim in Sh”t, use puns/double meanings from psukim to highlight a point.

    (a famed T’shuva about lulovim merkovim – grafted palms used for lulovim quotes the possuk “zonsa Tamar” – Yehuda’s daughter-in-law Tamar also means palm tree).

    There are even puns in Gemarah!

    (example, Pesochim 9b about the concern that a weasel may drag chometz around the house and leave it in a spot already checked for chometz, the Gemara asks: וכי חולדה נביאה היא, as a pun on the name Chulda HaNeveah)

    The Rishonim or Gemara held that they could use Torah “for witty puns” of Torah, but you must have higher standards than they.

    #1710176

    LerntminTayrah “I’m fully aware of his witty pun. But the Torah is not for witty puns.” To criticize a recognized tzaddik and talmid chochom who is revered by thousands, with a comment that has no basis other than “your” incorrect position (because Torah can and is used for witty puns by Gemara, Rishonim and poskim) – I find that offensive. Do you maybe consider yourself frummer or have more kovod haTorah than the Satmer Rebbe z”l? I need to be mocheh!

    #1710180

    The famed teshuva (which you likely are unaware of) about lulovim merkovim was a dispute between Mahari Segel and the Geonim of his time, he asked Rabbeinu Peretz to support him, Rabbenu Peretz replied with witty puns:
    ,רבים אומרים זנתה תמר
    ואני יחיד, מה אענה מה אומר
    עליך, פרץ, להפוך בזכותה
    אמך היא – לא תגלה ערוותה
    Several pesukim were used as puns.

    #1710184

    תשובה מהר”י מינץ צו רבינו פרץ לולבים מורכבים,
    רבים אומרים זנתה תמר
    , ואני יחיד מה אענה מה אומר,
    עליך פרץ להפוך בזכותה,
    אמך הוא לא תגלה ערותה.

    #1710877

    laskern
    Participant

    The Rash uses the pasuk לא המתים יהללו י-ה to allude to the dead dry arba minim being pasul to use. By chametz we find שלך אי אתה רואה אבל אתה רואה של אחרים ושל גבוה people don’t see there own sins but see the sins of others and certainly the sins of the holy. אין אדם רואה את נגעי עצמו a person doesn’t see his own faults.
    ( וכל הפוסל במומו פוסל (קידושין ע, ב whoever degrades the other person does it with his own faults.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    #1710990

    Milhouse
    Participant

    We say several times a day that ועבדתם leads to ואבדתם

    #1710986

    Milhouse
    Participant

    There is plenty of punning and wordplay in the Chumash itself.

    #1710987

    laskern
    Participant

    RG, If you mean what you said that we must have higher standards than the gemora and rishonim, then I say own you what the Chasam Sofer translated לא תעלה במעלות על מזבחי אשר לר תגלה ערותך עליו the way Ohr Hachaim Hakodash says on לא תשא את שם ה’ אלקך לשוא don’t elevate Hashem falsely. אל תצדק הרבה don’t make yourself more religious.

    #1710978

    avreimi
    Participant

    Among the Courts of many Chassidic Rebbes today, arranged marriages usually involve children who are required to marry for political, economic and dynastic reasons and the children involved are expected to be compliant.

    #1711030

    laskern
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer in Nedorim 81, translates שלא ברכו בתורה תחילה, the churban came because they did not make a Birchas Hatorah first, that when they praised someone, they praised them with their secular knowledge before their Torah knowledge.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Y.W. Editor.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    #1711036

    laskern
    Participant

    Moderator: need to edit reply #1710987

    #1712807

    laskern – ” If you mean what you said that we must have higher standards than the gemora and rishonim…אל תצדק הרבה don’t make yourself more religious.”

    Seriously, how do you reconcile this with the concept of perishus elucidated by Sefer Mesilas Yesorim:
    “והנה כלל הפרישות הוא מה שאמרו זכרונם לברכה, “קדש עצמך במותר לך” וזאת היא הוראתה של המילה עצמה, פרישות, רוצה לומר להיות פורש ומרחיק עצמו מן הדבר, והיינו שאוסר על עצמו דבר היתר, והכונה בזה לשלא יפגע באיסור עצמו, והעניין שכל דבר שיוכל להיולד ממנו גרמת רע, אף על פי שעכשיו אינו גורם לו, וכל שכן שאיננו רע ממש ירחק ויפרוש ממנו”.

    The standard required: והיינו שאוסר על עצמו דבר היתר, how does that fit with just keeping the bare halacha and no more?

    #1712933

    laskern
    Participant

    First keep the basics in everything and then think of doing more.

    #1713154

    Are the 613 basics? If so, one of them is “קדש עצמך במותר לך” – קדושים תהיו ? What do you consider basics?

    #1713155

    Is learning mussar (and in case you are Chabad – learning Chassidus) and following the teachings of mussar (or chassidus) – is that basics or is that אל תצדק הרבה?

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