March 21, 2012 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #861883No One Mourns The WickedMember
“But we can and should encourage girls to make the most of what Hashem has given them. That doesn’t mean going overboard, but a little lipstick, blush, mascara, and other cosmetics to cover up acne scars, discolorations, etc. are a good thing. Carefully applied makeup is not the enemy, (especially when you are trying to catch the eye of some boy’s mother).”
Making the most of what hashem gave us does not fall under the umbrella of PLASTIC SURGERY. That is called “Hashem I don’t like what you gave me and therefore I’m going to change it”.
Again, I am not saying that she didn’t have some very valid points. Makeup and stylish clothing will take a girl a long way in shidduchim, but her “helpful suggestions” were anything but helpful. You say we should be concerned about Anorexia in shidduchim. You think reading an article like this doesn’t propel that thought in a young/insecure girl?!March 21, 2012 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #861884blinkyParticipant
Oomis- nice post
Just to add on- for those who say that inner beauty is important and that the girls meeting boys mothers is extreme that may be true, but that wasn’t her point she was trying to bring.
What i took from this article is that girls have a responsibility to look their best especially while attending a meeting means so much to them. If they took their time out to go to a meeting that might be awkward, (meeting the boys mothers and all) obviously shows their want to get married.
Before you go for an interview lets say, everyone tries to look their best. Whether spending a longer time on your hair or wearing a nicer outfit… Because something thats important to you, you want to give off your best impression. Your not going to say well the interviewer should see me for the inside for who i am, if you come in looking “schluchy” – messy hair, outdated clothes…etc.March 21, 2012 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #861885Raphael KaufmanMember
It may be trite to say that, “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”, but sayings don’t become trite unless there is more than a grain of truth to them. Physical attraction is clearly a very important part of shidduchim but different folks are attracted to different manifestations of beauty. I have seen happily married couples who, you will pardon me, are so ugly that one could make a “nishtaneh habrios” on them but to each other they’re fine. I, myself, am not exactly GQ material but my wife thinks I’m good looking and I have not been able to disabuse her of that notion for 42 years.March 21, 2012 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #861886
RK – true, but that would start after you’ve done your reasonable best. To leave it all up to that…
NOMTW – Hey, I said I liked your post, back off 🙂
You def. SHOULDMarch 21, 2012 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #861887
RK – true, but that would start after you’ve done your reasonable best. To leave it all up to that…
NOMTW – Hey, I said I liked your post, back off 🙂
You def. SHOULD think about these things – you just need to bear in mind that we can’t always know the answers.
Rule of thumb ? (Ramchal- )Punishments and the like are His business, and we never really know that. There is always another perspective though – what we can take out of it, and grow from. That we need to think about, how to use it to grow, what could this be telling me about my life. “Growing pains”.March 21, 2012 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #861888oomisParticipant
NOMTW said:”Making the most of what hashem gave us does not fall under the umbrella of PLASTIC SURGERY. That is called “Hashem I don’t like what you gave me and therefore I’m going to change it”.
I respectfully disagree. Sometimes plastic surgery is the ONLY avenue to correct a physical stumbling block. By your own logic, NO parent should ever get orthodonture for their kids (what – you don’t LIKE crooked teeth???), no one should ever see a dermatologist, no one should go to the doctor (because Hashem gave us the source of infection, so why be immunized against anything?), and on and on.
Hashem gave us people who possess the chochmah and artistic talent to be able to correct these problems, because part of our life is to work on ourselves, as we are not created to be perfect from the outset. Sometimes working on ourselves is not strictly a spiritual journey. Correcting physical problems(deviated septum, cleft palate, clubfoot?)is under the purview of making our hishtadlus to look and be healthier.
Why is it that when the effort is needed to enhance PHYSICAL appearance, people look askance at the notion, as if that is an aveira of some type? I personally do not advocate for plastic surgery of any kind – I think there are risks in any elective surgery. But to enhance a girl’s self-esteem and make her more appealing to the eye, should not even be a question. I am not saying it is a GOOD thing that this has become necessary at times. I am saying that we need to be realistic and understand that the competition for shidduchim is fierce, and a girl (or guy) needs to use the resources available to (like trying to sell a house) have better “curb appeal.” (Don’t shoot the messenger, folks).March 21, 2012 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #861889oomisParticipant
I also want to add that as RK said, there are people attracted to each other that make us scratch our heads because we cannot fathom WHY? But that is a special chesed of Hashem, that they find each other. It doesn’t happen for everyone.That being said, the majority of people who are average looking, will benefit materially from better grooming. That goes for guys, also.March 21, 2012 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #861890writersoulMember
Look- I don’t think girls should be schlubby when they go out. (When they go out anywhere, as a matter of fact.) However, as pba said, she took that completely valid point and buried it in a pile of garbage.March 21, 2012 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #861891
msseeker, thank you so much, I very much appreciate it.
Logician: “Are you so biased by your own situation that you can’t imagine that there’s someone otherwise compatible for you, who unfortunately is turned off by your situation, and that is causing you difficulty ? And that you are meant to have this difficulty, and grow from it ?”
Oh, I’m sure there are plenty of people who may be compatible, yet are turned off by my situation, but I don’t consider that a difficulty. I used to consider it a difficulty, but not any more. I’ve become aware of the reality that it is really a blessing. And instead of it being a difficulty that I can use to grow from, I see it as a blessing from G-d that I can also use to grow from, by showing my appreciation to Him for giving me such a blessing.March 22, 2012 1:13 am at 1:13 am #861892
Care to explain yourself ? Why is it a blessing ?
Is everything that happens to you a blessing ? Feels good ?
Ever studied these subjects, or you just let your gut tell you how He runs the world ?March 22, 2012 2:07 am at 2:07 am #861893
Sure, I’ll explain myself. It is a blessing, because G-d knows exactly what situation will provide every single person the ability to grow to their full potential. So G-d gives each person unique things that they must go through, and hopefully they come out of it with growth, with being one step closer to their potential. Sure, it’s natural to see these things and say “Wow, these are really bad things I’m going through.. why was I given such a difficult nisayon?” Well, the answer is that we don’t know exactly why we were given these specific nisyonos. But we DO know that they are “custom-tailored” to help us become the best people we can be. Therefore, they are ALL blessings. There isn’t one difficulty that G-d gives that isn’t done for our good.
Now, of course, we have emotions and instincts, and they will sometimes control our minds and make us suffer through these situations. But those are just our natural, human reactions. The REALITY is that it is all for our good, and hopefully, eventually, when we overcome our initial emotions, we see it that way. But we can even see it that way from the onset, if we are able to.
And no, I’ve never studied those subjects, and no, I don’t know at all how G-d runs the world. None of us do. But I do have a way of dealing with whatever may happen to me in life based on my beliefs in an extremely positive way, and that’s much better than many people have.March 22, 2012 2:16 am at 2:16 am #861894
I’m sure the mods won’t allow this question through (I’m not even sure that I think that they should, honestly….March 22, 2012 2:53 am at 2:53 am #861895
Lol. Nice one, whichever mod did that. But be fair, the question would have shown just how misguided this idea is, no?March 22, 2012 3:18 am at 3:18 am #861896
“And no, I’ve never studied those subjects, and no, I don’t know at all how G-d runs the world. None of us do.”
But some of us know what our Chachamim have taught us on the subject. We may never know, without nevua’ah, the meaning of any particular event, but we know things about the “rules”.
So you agree that they’re nisyonos. But the painful reaction is just part of being human, not His intent. And He didn’t realize that when He gave it to you, huh ?March 22, 2012 3:41 am at 3:41 am #861897
Of course G-d realizes that it is entirely possible we will have a painful reaction to the nisayon, because G-d understands that we are human. All I am saying is that we don’t have to have a painful reaction to these things if we were fully aware of the truth, and the reality, which is that it is for our good.
I haven’t seen that gemarah, but I’d assume that when it speaks of “good” and “bad”, it is speaking in terms of how people talk and think, which is a concept we find in many gemaros, and that when it says “bad”, it is referring to things that we would naturally, because of our initial emotions, view as bad. But again, those emotions blind us from the reality of everything REALLY being good.
I see that you won’t agree with my point, and that really does not bother me. Many people don’t. All I know is that my viewpoint greatly helps me move ahead in life, and I know that it has also helped others who are going through difficulties.March 22, 2012 3:59 am at 3:59 am #861898
I am showing you Halachic sources, which you are ignoring. ok.
Once again – the ostrich also thinks he has it good.March 22, 2012 4:23 am at 4:23 am #861899
I’m not sure what sources you are referring to which I am ignoring. I just told you how one can interpret the word “bad” in that gemara, based on my understanding. You ignored it. If you have a different interpretation, wonderful.
And not necessarily is it G-d’s intention for us to have a negative reaction. That is OUR choice. I believe that G-d hopes that we use every experience to help us grow. I CHOOSE to have a positive reaction to the things in my life. If that makes me a person who “ignores halacha”, so be it. You will never convince to start having negative reactions to the things that go on in my life. I’m waaaaaaaaaay past that.March 22, 2012 11:45 am at 11:45 am #861900
Of course good and bad means aqccording to human perception. But tnat’s part of the plan.
I asked you why we’re required to make different brochos.
You only grow from a situation if you take it to heart. If it doesn’t bother you, and you just go on,knowing that its all for the best, then it won’t affect or change you. You just Have Emunah, and ignore what Hashem thows your way, ‘cuz you’re “above it”.
Let me stress that my intention is to feel the pain, “while” believing its all for the best. That’s called “mevorecl aal ha’rah – b’simchah”.
You don’t have to take anything I say. Just start doing some learning, and see what you find.March 22, 2012 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #861901
I really do understand what you’re saying. Here’s the story: I don’t know how much you know about me and my family and my father, but needless to say, you can find it all here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/life-as-the-son-of-a-child-molester-my-story
After you’ve read that, you will see that yes, I was extremely hurt and in incredible emotional pain for years. That is something that, I think I’m safe in saying, most people would not be able to go through and come out normal. So yes, I grew from that pain, became a better person, used it for my benefit, which is of course of G-d wanted.
Now, because I’m basically past all that pain, I, personally, can’t really think of anything that would happen to me that I wouldn’t be able to see the good in. So perhaps I am unique and I’m the only person to think like that. But that is where I’m coming from. Understand?March 22, 2012 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #861902yitayningwutParticipant
I don’t think MiddlePath is saying that he doesn’t ever feel pain. He’s not a stone. And you can’t feel joy if you can’t feel pain. He is saying, if I am understanding correctly, that he reacts in a positive way, even to things which might be painful. He has a perspective on pain, which makes it something which isn’t bad even though it hurts. That is an amazing thing that we should all strive for.March 22, 2012 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #861903
Ok,I read your piece (the OP, not comments.
Hatzlachah in all your endeavors!March 22, 2012 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #861904
Logician: Because this is an Olam Shel Sheker HKB”H expects us to not see the good in everything. Therefore we have a Bracha on apparently bad things to remind us that there is good in everything.March 22, 2012 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #861905
Sam2 – 100%. But its the olam we live in, and He knows that, so while we should see (or believe) that there’s good in every situation, He also sent the pain involved, and we should not attempt to deny it. That’s all.March 22, 2012 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #861906
Logician, thanks. No apologies necessary, it’s okay. Yes, it isn’t good to deny the pain, if we are experiencing it, because it is there for a reason. One can use it to grow. Hence the expression “growing pains”. At the same time, if one is able to go through a seemingly troubling experience knowing that it is for their good, the pain may be much lessened, or even not exist altogether. And even then, one can use the experience to grow. Feeling pain isn’t really a choice, it’s an emotion, and usually non-controllable.So however we react, G-d wants us to use that reaction to grow. What the reaction is depends on the particular experience and on the individual’s perspective.
yitayningwut, you got it.
Sam2, agreed.March 22, 2012 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #861907
MP – The original point was that you said you’re happy because of someone’s turned off, you just don’t have to sift through them. To me, that sounds like making the situation positive, not DEALING with it positively. It’s a problematic situation, but you believe its for the good. That’s the difference.
And again – FOR THE EVENTUAL good. Which does not have to be in this world either. Seeing it as good, is not like “finding the silver lining” – that may help you deal, but its not totally facing the situation. It means its good for me to have this problem – period. Like missing the plane is good – not because it might blow up, but because I’m supposed to be inconvenienced.
That’s the reason I’m making a big deal about the terminology. If the plane will blow up, missing it is GOOD. If nothing like that will happen, then it was BAD. But it is FOR MY GOOD, that this BAD thing happens – because it was for some reason good for me to have some bad in my life.March 22, 2012 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #861908
As an aside – as you said, the reaction depends on one’s personality and circumstances. Therefore one’s emotions are controllable – by adjusting your viewpoint, you react differently. This is basically how all our inner growth is possible.March 22, 2012 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #861909nfgo3Member
I thought that one’s bashert was determined by Hashem. If so, why would He want anyone to get a nose job to enable her bashert to find her. Wouldn’t He take care of that when He picked the container for the soul?March 22, 2012 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #861910
Logician- “that sounds like making the situation positive, not DEALING with it positively. It’s a problematic situation, but you believe its for the good.”
That’s one way of seeing it. A second way is the following: Since I know that the situation really IS positive, because I know it really is for my good, I’ll be able to deal with it positively instead of being bogged down by seeing it as a problematic situation.
“And again – FOR THE EVENTUAL good. Which does not have to be in this world either. Seeing it as good, is not like “finding the silver lining” – that may help you deal, but its not totally facing the situation. It means its good for me to have this problem – period. Like missing the plane is good – not because it might blow up, but because I’m supposed to be inconvenienced.
That’s the reason I’m making a big deal about the terminology. If the plane will blow up, missing it is GOOD. If nothing like that will happen, then it was BAD. But it is FOR MY GOOD, that this BAD thing happens – because it was for some reason good for me to have some bad in my life.”
Here’s my issue with this: Since we know that everything is, as you said, “for the eventual good”, being in the “bad” situation now is really, in the long run, always good. So, when I miss the plane, even if it doesn’t blow up, it was still GOOD that I missed it, for any number of reasons that I may not see, even in this world (as you said). Of course, that doesn’t take away from the possible frustration of missing the plane. But that is just human nature. All I am saying is that since I know that missing the plane really is for my good, I will understand that it is good for me to miss it. And knowing that will relieve me of my frustration. Now, does that mean that because I’m not being frustrated by it, that I’m doing the wrong thing? And that G-d wants me to be frustrated? That, we can’t possibly know. But I think being frustrated is generally not as good as NOT being frustrated, and that it is far better, mentally, emotionally, and physically, to try to be calm, happy, and in peace rather than being upset, frustrated, and sad. No?
And yes, it is definitely possible to control our emotions by altering our perspective. But that is something usually very difficult to do. It took me years to change my perspective on my family situation. Now, am I wrong for the way I deal with it? Am I supposed to be in pain from it my entire life? Did I end the pain too early? I can’t possibly know that, but I must say, it is easier to have faith in G-d and follow his commandments when I’m not in pain, and therefore, I think that whenever I can relieve myself of pain, I should. And that would apply to everyone else as well.March 22, 2012 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #861911
About the last point – I in no way meant it in regard to your situation. I was pointing out a fascinating idea – that at root, we never change our midos, but our way of using them.
In the case of physical pain, for sure that’s also included in His intent. So your point is that when its not clear, and depends on my emotions, I do my best to avoid it.
I would think that depends on the situation. In the case of the plane, I would agree. There is no need to feel frustration, if anything it comes from a bad midah, so work on it. My intent there was not to frustration, but to the problems you may have because of missing it.
In a case where its a normal human emotion – such as the sickness or loss of someone you care for – I would say He expects you to have the pain, and is part of His intention. Serious problems in life, perhaps including yours, is hard to know. Everyone has to know for themselves. I would be very wary, though, of denial.
NOMTW – sorry, by the way, for hijacking the thread.March 23, 2012 1:42 am at 1:42 am #861912
Logician, yes, it’s so nice to have a respectful conversation with our different perspectives. I find it pleasantly enriching. And denial is never a good thing. I wouldn’t consider my perspective denial, though. Using my perspective, I am very much aware of the situation. I am just channeling my mind into realizing that it is for my good, and therefore, I may be able to get through it without suffering. I agree that being in denial of one’s emotional state in unhealthy. But if I really, emotionally, am not feeling pained, then I’m not denying it. I mean, I AM denying it entry into my being, but I am not denying that I am feeling it, because I’m not. So I think there is a difference there.
Hmm, so about missing the plane, I do see what you mean. You aren’t referring to the frustration, but to the possible effects of missing the plane, such as being late to a meeting, missing a wedding, etc. So for those types of things, yes, it is very possible, and likely, that G-d intends for us to feel the pain of missing these events, but at the same time, using my perspective works equally well on those. There was obviously a good reason why I had to miss that wedding, or be late to that meeting. I may not understand that reason, but I believe 100 percent that it’s there. It’s even possible that the reason was simply to make me feel the pain of missing such an event, and that pain was necessary. But, if I miss that wedding, and even so, understand that G-d had a good reason for me missing it, and it was for my best, that would greatly ease the pain, and possibly erase it. Does that mean that causing me pain couldn’t have been the reason? I don’t know. I may never know the reason. But I DO know that I eased my pain, and that helps greatly.
No One Mourns, I’m sorry too.
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