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does a guy like artscroll shas better than the regular nontranslated or do they feel dumb?
I love using the Artscroll Gemaras. It has brought Talmud Torah to tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people.
There are people who bash artscroll that could use it,and the people who do use artscroll become very knowledgeable while the people who need it stay ignorant.
An extremely necessary evil.
sam4321 – Was that supposed to be meant in sarcasm?
Not at all,I know ppl who could use artscroll but instead make fun of it. These ppl could use and know a lot of Torah.
Gilgul,
I wouldn’t be offended. A big gadol that I know uses Artscroll to prepare his gemara shiur. The reason why people are against it is that sometimes, people use it as a crutch. People who have the time to learn up a gemara by themselves and instead use an Artscroll are ripping themselves off. Some people will bash it without knowing why. But a yeshiva bochur building his gemara skills should not be spending too much time learning out of an Artscroll. The gemara is written in a very specific way, and if somebody uses an Artscroll before he knows how the gemara is written, it will be much harder for him to pick it up than if he spent the same amount of time (and covered less ground) learning out of a regular gemara.
Hey I just realized, we might be the same person. You might really be Joseph!
It depends on the recipient. If he has a very solid yeshiva background, the type who learned, or expects to learn for many years in kollel (5+), it may be insulting.
For everyone else it will be greatly appreciated.
Why a necessary evil?
Give the Hebrew Artscroll. That one is acceptable.
old man- Its a bit harsh to call it evil. R’ SZ Aurebach and y”blc R’ Elyashiv shlita are not in the habit of givng haskomos to “evil”.
What do Artscroll and GPS have in common??
Ameilus Batorah is what the Ribono Shel Olam wants from us.
not easy reading for a couple of minutes a day.
On a practical note If you want to become a Talmid Chochom, IT WILL NOT COME FROM ARTSCROLL it will come from breaking your head trying to figure out pshat, teitsh vechulu.
Simchas Hatorah and remembering the Torah can only come from your ameilus without any extra help. Try five minutes a day without help and slowly build it up ten twenty minutes and the Siyata Dishmaya will kick in.
OYSIYOS MACHKIMOS IS NOT ARTSCROLL! there is a special siyata dishmaya in the words exactly how the balei Gemara gave it to us in the tzuras hadaf in the way it was written.
most people using the artscroll never look at the real tzuras hadaf its a Shanda.
Then you see Bochurim learning with artcroll they will never know how to learn if its spoon fed ameilus is the only way .
rofl i never understood why people think that using a hebrew one is any less of a crutch…
The Mishne B’rurah was knocked when it first came out, and many still knock it for the same reasons. And yes, those who don’t learn Mishne B’rurah because they feel it’s not the original, remain amarotzim, while those of us who do learn it grow in halacha.
I never understand why people think it hinders learning how to read Gemara. If you only read the English words, maybe. But it also is tremendous because it breaks up the words phrase by phrase, so anyone who properly uses the Artscroll can get used to how the Shakla Vetarya goes.
Sorry that some of you have not learned spoken English. Please ask someone older than you what the expression “necessary evil” means. Thank you.
When you consider how Artscroll is SO instrumental in ensuring there is clear understanding of our SACRED books, and how Artscroll has a pivotal place in bringing Judaism to the record number of
those returning in the era just before Moshiach, and also consider the wonderful, brilliant, Talmidei Chochamim that I know who work for Artscroll, I can only assume the thread was started by someone who is shy about using Artscroll shas since someone who uses a regular, non-translated shas would know the value of Artscroll.
Go ahead and use Artscroll and dont be shy about it. Hatzlacha!
Jewish source: I also feel that the proper Tzuras Hadaf is important for several reasons, but pretending that the Tzurah we have was given by the Ba’alei Gemara is just false.
What people don’t realize is that if the Tannaim and Amorim wanted to make people sweat over the Gemora they would have written it Hebrew, not Aramaic, the language everyone spoke Aramaic!! It was the commonly spoken language. Noone spoke Hebrew
I wonder if people were having the same discussion when the first Gemorah was printed along with Rashi’s explanation.
Using Artscroll to translate difficult and unusual words in the Gemara is fine. It’s no different to the Aruch or to Rashi’s translation into French. No point sitting around for half an hour wasting time (Bitul Torah even) breaking your head over a difficult word that you have never heard of just for the principle of not touching Artscroll.
But to use it as your main learning Gemara for an easy ride, well that’s different. That’s surely not what’s meant when we say ‘La’asok B’divrei Torah’.
What does the Artscroll Shas and GPS have in common??
They both get you to where you want to go, but once there and you look back, you have no idea how you got there.
Its a great reference tool, but try to first learn the Gemara on your own and sweat a bit before succumbing and using Artscroll.
????? ????? ????? doesnt mean to sit back in your recliner and just read through the Gemara like you would a newspaper. You need to stop and think, analyze what you are learning. I find that when I use Artscroll (I have the whole set) I am just reading the words and dont stop to think if I understand it. I mean its gotta make sense because after all, its a mefurishe Artscroll!
Bezalel: Worse, because artscroll layout was designed and edited by talmidei chachamim. Bomburg was not Jewish.
jewish source: And in your day you walked to school 3 miles uphill both ways on dirt roads and learned only from the tzuras hadaf. We get it. That’s why you think Daniel Bomburg was an amora.
on the ball: Why do you assume that “laasok b’divrei sorah” refers to making things harder than necessary? If that were the case, why would RI”F have abridged shas? Why would Rashi write a phrase by phrase commentary simplifying the gemara so much?
So yungerman, you probably shouldn’t use Artscroll. I don’t see why the Gemara would be easier to understand if you read it in English. Just because you now know what the words mean doesn’t mean it’s any easier to understand. Jumping straight to the Artscroll footnotes every time probably counts as cheating though.
My humble opinion.
These are 2 parts to it.
1) The ???? ????? of the gemara.
2) The ??????
For this reason I learn in a regular Gemara and have an Artscroll on the side. (I prefer learning in a regular gemara rather than the Gemara side of the Artscroll)
When my daughter got engaged, i approached her choson.
I asked him “please don’t be insulted, but do you want a “regular Shas, or an Artscroll?”
He responded ” Please don’t be insulted, I’ll take the Artscroll”
🙂
He probably asked for the large set, so he can exchange it for a small set and a regular shas!
1)To the person who approached their son in law. Just a question – is an art scroll shas now the standard gift. Suddenly we went from buying a $600 shas to a $2500 shas? At least I hope your not supporting your son in law. If he can’t make a lainus on a gemara by the time he is married then he should be working.
2)To those who spoke about ameilus. Why do you define ameilus as going deep in a gemara and breaking your head? Pehaps ameilus means a guy who worked all day in Manhattan, spent 2 hours commuting, comes home and helps his kids with their homework and still makes a seder at night to learn. That also requires effort.
Hi shtusim. Very good! Not sure how long or recent that was, but Mazel Tov!
My only thought to the folks here on the subject is that if two people are learning from an untranslated shas, will they already know and share all the information on any given point that is contained within an Artscroll shas?
Any translation is a problem, even with closely related languages such as English and French (or Hebrew and Aramaic), Kal v’Homer with totally unrelated languages such as Hebrew and English. If the Artscroll was being honest, every word would have oodles of footnotes conveying the difficulty and alternative readings, and the translation would be unreadable. The goyim have a saying that translators or traitors, which is true in many ways.
So remember that any translation is a tool, and usually a valuable tool, but it is only a tool. Then go ahead and enjoy.
MeinMeinung said it well, above.
In my humble opinion, I would add, if you were fortunate to have received a Yeshiva education, you might want to get both an Oz ViHadar to learn from and an Artscroll to refer to as needed, particularly for perakim with lots of aggadita and other heretofore unfamiliar concepts.
if two people are learning from an untranslated shas, will they already know and share all the information on any given point that is contained within an Artscroll shas?
Not at all. One of the most valuable qualities of AS Shas are the notes which do a lot of research on numerous points on each daf. To do this research even for an accomplished Talmid chacham would take many hours. Also practiaclly all the rashis are explained. Every now and then there is a shver Rashi. A S is an invaluable tool, even if not used for translation of pshat in the gemara.
akuperma: “If the Artscroll was being honest, every word would have oodles of footnotes conveying the difficulty and alternative readings, and the translation would be unreadable.”
How would leaving out every single thought on a subject, as you suggest, be an issue of dishonesty???
The irony of all this is that the added clarifications put into Artscroll shas are written in there by experts who study with untranslated shas. You are getting in writing what you would get if you were sitting across from them, except they check the sources more carefully at their desks at Artscroll.
That being said, this argument for all of us is pointless.
On a personal note, I am so grateful to Artscroll. I would hope those who are good at learning would understand it’s value and find it not necessary to belittle it. There must be some tools you use that people holding a higher madrayga would not use. That does not mean those tools are substandard. Dont better learners benefit from a world where more people are coming back to Torah Judaism? Dont those returning benefit from those who learn in yeshiva?
I think Artscroll shas and untranslated shas is not a “versus” situation, it is a win-win situation.
English and French are not remotely related. French is a Romance language from which the French have attempted to bar outside influences. English is Germanic with influences from any and all languages
What’s wrong with a tool? A Gemara itself is a tool. We should all learn Ba’al Peh if “tools” should be avoided.
Observation: The Talmidei chachomim who WROTE the AS did not yet have the AS to learn from! They simply ‘horovid’ (ameilus)!
sam2 is right. Don’t use Rashi or any meforshim
,
The Ragachover Gaon ZT”L knew “?? ????? ????” by heart, without the Artscroll Shas!
SG345- Because Ameilus BaTorah means exactly that -Ameilus BaTorah. Im not saying that someone who does what you described will have less schar than others, but when learning there should be ameilus, not just having it taught to you.
Very interesting discussion with many valid points raised.
I want to remind everyone that there is an elephant in your ArtScroll living room.
Every person who worked on the ArtScroll shas had a Steinsaltz gemara right next to him.
unless you absolutely need it as an aid, using an artscroll isnt just shooting yourself in the foot, its talmudic suicide. you wont learn how to think and youll bleib with a superficial havana. not kidaei.
old man: That isn’t correct.
Yungerman – Ameilus means to toil. It’s a relative word and how you apply it dependss on the individual. Yes Art Scroll is a crutch -but some people need crutches to walk.
For someone who is learning all day then his effort would have to be go deeper or accomplish more etc… For someone who has no time and comes home beat from work amongst all the daily stresses – his defiition of toil is different.
Sg345
Precisely the working person should not be using AS. You only have the couple of minutes to learn use it efficiently toil in Torah ain hakodosh boruchu mone es hadafim hashem does not count the dafim just the amount of time
I don’t think Artscroll presents a problem of a lack of ameilus. Aderabah, you can now do the same amount of ameilus and delve even deeper! But I have a different problem, in that I find when I use an Artscroll I only read the English. This bothers me because I want to remember the lashon of the Gemara and the tzuras hadaf. This also can be a problem for someone trying to learn the language. But I’m sure lots of people don’t do this. This is just my personal issue with it. Be that as it may, I think Artscroll is a wonderful and amazing thing.
yit- toiling means using your brain and pushing yourself. the simple teich becomes deeper if your trying harder. if youve learned enough and are holding to understand this, the difference is obvious.
Pushing yourself doesn’t have to mean struggling to understand how to translate the words. It means struggling to understand what the words really mean and what is going on. Chazal didn’t intend for translating the Gemara to be of any difficulty at all.
An extremely necessary evil.
Well, if it’s evil, is it not subject to the mitzvah of Uviarta Harah Mikirbecha?
Perhaps I should burn my Artscroll Gemaras?
The Wolf
I once saw someone burn an Artscroll Gemara. I tore Kriyah.
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