Artscroll Shas – English vs. Hebrew editions

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Viewing 19 posts - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)
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  • #1429500

    slominer
    Participant

    Other than the language used to translate the Gemorah (i.e. English vs. Hebrew), is there a difference in how the English version of the Artscroll Shas presents the Gemorah versus the methodology in the Hebrew version of the Artscroll Shas?

    Does the Artscroll Hebrew edition use Modern Hebrew/Ivrit for the translation or does it use Rabbinical Hebrew (i.e. the Loshon Kodesh rabbonim use to write Seforim)?

    I find it interesting that Artscroll is producing a French edition of the Artscroll Shas rather than a Yiddish edition, when Yiddish is much more used than French among frum Yidden. I assume this is because Artscroll has a sponsor (supporter) for a French edition but not for a Yiddish edition.

    #1429526

    I think the English and Hebrew Gemaras were actually
    written completely independently of each other.

    #1429528

    slominer
    Participant

    I’ve also found it curious that serious talmidei chachamim can sometimes be seen using (or referring to) the Artscroll Hebrew edition but many of them would not be caught dead seen using the English Artscroll.

    #1429548

    RashbiJr
    Participant

    The English shas is a translation.

    The Hebrew shas is very similar to a “Mesivta” (w/ terrific notes), just w/o the stuff in the back. It also has more extra-informational (rishonim/ACHRONIM) notes. The english version note’s are more basic and explanation based.

    #1429550

    funnybone
    Participant

    When the Gemorah quotes a pasuk, Hebrew does not translte it, while English does. English also givea you background when quoting nach.
    Hebrew has more in depth notes.

    #1429555

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    “would not be caught dead seen using the English Artscroll”

    Are you referring to chachamim here in the US or EY? The chachmim in the US may not need the English version and fell more comfortable with the Hebrew version. Don’t try to denigrate them with such an outlandish comment when those like R’ Dovid Feinstein have been quoted as saying that there is nothing wrong with looking at the ArtScroll elucidation for poshut pshat and then breaking your head on RASHI and TOSFOS.

    Please remember that it was the gedolim of the previous generation (including R’ Yaakov Kaminetsky TZATZAL and R’ Mordechai Gifter TZATZAL) that guided and encouraged R’ Meir Zlotowitz TZTZAL an YBLCH R’ Nosson Scherman to produce the English version.

    #1429554

    beitar
    Participant

    The Hebrew edition is written neither in Modern Ivrit or in the Rabbinic pseudo-Hebrew you would find in Tosafos. It is written in classical Hebrew, similar to the Hebrew used by Rambam.
    Most of the Hebrew edition is for the most part similar to the English edition, except that in the Hebrew edition much of the explanation is interposed into the text, rather than being relegated to the notes. In the English edition this is less necessary, becuase the translation itself by nature contains some explanation.

    #1429559

    Chagav BEinai
    Participant

    The English edition serves as the basis for the Hebrew edition. 85% of the time, it’s just a translation. The Hebrew editors do have leeway, however, to tweak things. Most of the changes are adding a bit more information to the notes.

    #1429576

    slominer
    Participant

    iacisrmma – Take it easy. I specifically said I was referring to “serious talmidei chachamim.” They, presumably, don’t need the English Artscroll since they speak English and know the Gemorah without the Artscroll.

    #1429586

    Chagav BEinai
    Participant

    The idea that there is a major difference between the notes in the English version and the Hebrew version is simply untrue. They are, for the most, part identical.

    #1429616

    refoelzeev
    Participant

    From what I could tell, but I didn’t do a thorough comparison, the Hebrew edition has larger footnotes, quoting the relevant rishonim and achronim

    #1430026

    slonimer: Like IAC I was taken about by your horrible phrase “would not be caught dead with” as if it was something TAMAY. Maybe you should reread what you write before clicking submit. Didn’t you expect this sort of reaction to your hyperbole?

    #1430053

    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    How about everyone goes and learns Gemora (or Chumash or Nach or Medrash) instead of continuing to argue?

    #1430550

    yehudayona
    Participant

    I attend a shiur given by a major talmid chacham. Several of the attendees use the English Artscroll. The maggid shiur occasionally asks how “Art” translates a word.

    #1431218

    Geordie613
    Participant

    I agree with RefoelZeev. The Hebrew ArtScroll has more rishonim based footnotes. It is more like a lomdishe sefer than the English edition. This is why Kollel people/Rabonim would be more likely to use it.

    Regarding why there is no Yiddish edition. People who speak yiddish, still learn in Loshon Hakodesh. (I do wonder about the A/S Spanish nusach ashkenaz siddur, who uses that?)

    Yehudayona, A well known maggid shiur here in Manchester doesn’t allow people with an Artscroll gemora to ask questions in shiur. Someone else refers to Rebbe Brown or Rebbe Blau, when asking about the A/S gemoras.

    #1431233

    slominer
    Participant

    “Regarding why there is no Yiddish edition. People who speak yiddish, still learn in Loshon Hakodesh.”

    1. How does that explain why there’s no Yiddish edition?

    2. Kids learning the Gemorah in Yiddish translate the Gemorah into Yiddish the same way those who learn in English translate it into English.

    #1431244

    akuperma
    Participant

    If one is able to comfortably read Hebrew, the Hebrew is always going to be preferable to English. Torah is in Hebrew (or Aramaic), and those languages do not translate well into English. It has to do with the very substantial differences between Indo-European (Aryan) language and Semitic languages, e.g., verb tenses, sentence structure, etc. While not agreeing with the classic phrases ” Traduttore, traditore” (translators=traitors), there are good reasons why our classic literatures have never been written in an Indo-European languages (of which English and Yiddish are, today, the most important).

    #1438366

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Slonimer,
    Kids learning in Yiddish, should not be using the Artscroll gemoras. that’s not what its meant for

    #1438382

    slominer
    Participant

    Geordie – Kids aren’t the only people learning Gemorah in Yiddish. What about adults? Why shouldn’t they have a Yiddish Artscroll Shas any more than the English speakers use an English Artscroll.

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