December 18, 2017 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1429500
Other than the language used to translate the Gemorah (i.e. English vs. Hebrew), is there a difference in how the English version of the Artscroll Shas presents the Gemorah versus the methodology in the Hebrew version of the Artscroll Shas?
Does the Artscroll Hebrew edition use Modern Hebrew/Ivrit for the translation or does it use Rabbinical Hebrew (i.e. the Loshon Kodesh rabbonim use to write Seforim)?
I find it interesting that Artscroll is producing a French edition of the Artscroll Shas rather than a Yiddish edition, when Yiddish is much more used than French among frum Yidden. I assume this is because Artscroll has a sponsor (supporter) for a French edition but not for a Yiddish edition.December 18, 2017 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1429526
☢️ 🚭 ☣️ Rand0m3x 🧠🕴️🎲Participant
I think the English and Hebrew Gemaras were actually
written completely independently of each other.December 18, 2017 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1429528
I’ve also found it curious that serious talmidei chachamim can sometimes be seen using (or referring to) the Artscroll Hebrew edition but many of them would not be caught dead seen using the English Artscroll.December 18, 2017 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1429548
The English shas is a translation.
The Hebrew shas is very similar to a “Mesivta” (w/ terrific notes), just w/o the stuff in the back. It also has more extra-informational (rishonim/ACHRONIM) notes. The english version note’s are more basic and explanation based.December 18, 2017 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1429550
When the Gemorah quotes a pasuk, Hebrew does not translte it, while English does. English also givea you background when quoting nach.
Hebrew has more in depth notes.December 18, 2017 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1429555
“would not be caught dead seen using the English Artscroll”
Are you referring to chachamim here in the US or EY? The chachmim in the US may not need the English version and fell more comfortable with the Hebrew version. Don’t try to denigrate them with such an outlandish comment when those like R’ Dovid Feinstein have been quoted as saying that there is nothing wrong with looking at the ArtScroll elucidation for poshut pshat and then breaking your head on RASHI and TOSFOS.
Please remember that it was the gedolim of the previous generation (including R’ Yaakov Kaminetsky TZATZAL and R’ Mordechai Gifter TZATZAL) that guided and encouraged R’ Meir Zlotowitz TZTZAL an YBLCH R’ Nosson Scherman to produce the English version.December 18, 2017 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1429554
The Hebrew edition is written neither in Modern Ivrit or in the Rabbinic pseudo-Hebrew you would find in Tosafos. It is written in classical Hebrew, similar to the Hebrew used by Rambam.
Most of the Hebrew edition is for the most part similar to the English edition, except that in the Hebrew edition much of the explanation is interposed into the text, rather than being relegated to the notes. In the English edition this is less necessary, becuase the translation itself by nature contains some explanation.December 18, 2017 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1429559
The English edition serves as the basis for the Hebrew edition. 85% of the time, it’s just a translation. The Hebrew editors do have leeway, however, to tweak things. Most of the changes are adding a bit more information to the notes.December 18, 2017 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #1429576
iacisrmma – Take it easy. I specifically said I was referring to “serious talmidei chachamim.” They, presumably, don’t need the English Artscroll since they speak English and know the Gemorah without the Artscroll.December 18, 2017 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1429586
The idea that there is a major difference between the notes in the English version and the Hebrew version is simply untrue. They are, for the most, part identical.December 18, 2017 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1429616
From what I could tell, but I didn’t do a thorough comparison, the Hebrew edition has larger footnotes, quoting the relevant rishonim and achronimDecember 19, 2017 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1430026
slonimer: Like IAC I was taken about by your horrible phrase “would not be caught dead with” as if it was something TAMAY. Maybe you should reread what you write before clicking submit. Didn’t you expect this sort of reaction to your hyperbole?December 19, 2017 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1430053
How about everyone goes and learns Gemora (or Chumash or Nach or Medrash) instead of continuing to argue?December 20, 2017 1:24 am at 1:24 am #1430550
I attend a shiur given by a major talmid chacham. Several of the attendees use the English Artscroll. The maggid shiur occasionally asks how “Art” translates a word.December 21, 2017 8:22 am at 8:22 am #1431218
I agree with RefoelZeev. The Hebrew ArtScroll has more rishonim based footnotes. It is more like a lomdishe sefer than the English edition. This is why Kollel people/Rabonim would be more likely to use it.
Regarding why there is no Yiddish edition. People who speak yiddish, still learn in Loshon Hakodesh. (I do wonder about the A/S Spanish nusach ashkenaz siddur, who uses that?)
Yehudayona, A well known maggid shiur here in Manchester doesn’t allow people with an Artscroll gemora to ask questions in shiur. Someone else refers to Rebbe Brown or Rebbe Blau, when asking about the A/S gemoras.December 21, 2017 8:42 am at 8:42 am #1431233
“Regarding why there is no Yiddish edition. People who speak yiddish, still learn in Loshon Hakodesh.”
1. How does that explain why there’s no Yiddish edition?
2. Kids learning the Gemorah in Yiddish translate the Gemorah into Yiddish the same way those who learn in English translate it into English.December 21, 2017 9:18 am at 9:18 am #1431244
If one is able to comfortably read Hebrew, the Hebrew is always going to be preferable to English. Torah is in Hebrew (or Aramaic), and those languages do not translate well into English. It has to do with the very substantial differences between Indo-European (Aryan) language and Semitic languages, e.g., verb tenses, sentence structure, etc. While not agreeing with the classic phrases ” Traduttore, traditore” (translators=traitors), there are good reasons why our classic literatures have never been written in an Indo-European languages (of which English and Yiddish are, today, the most important).December 27, 2017 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1438366
Kids learning in Yiddish, should not be using the Artscroll gemoras. that’s not what its meant forDecember 27, 2017 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #1438382
Geordie – Kids aren’t the only people learning Gemorah in Yiddish. What about adults? Why shouldn’t they have a Yiddish Artscroll Shas any more than the English speakers use an English Artscroll.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.