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- This topic has 12 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 4 months, 1 week ago by y1836.
January 23, 2023 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #2158695simcha613Participant
I’m not sure I understand why everyone is upset at the High Court’s ruling against Aryeh Deri. Now, I am not personally judging Deri as I don’t know him, I don’t know with certainty what he has or hasn’t done, have no idea whether he has done teshuvah for any of those crimes that he may have comitted, and I certainly can’t judge him as a person as a whole with only bits and pieces of information regarding his past. But it seems like a reasonable law not to allow a convicted criminal to serve as a minister, and it was indeed part of Deri’s own plea deal that he wouldnt’ serve again. Why are we arguing that Deri should be above the law? And a law that seems to make sense (at least to me)?January 23, 2023 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #2158820akupermaParticipant
There is strong reason to believe that if Deri were a secular Ashkenazi kibbutznik with a good socialist pedigree, he would be seen by the secular world as a paragon of virtue.
Understand that the relationship of the zionists (meaning those running the zionist movements, excluding the religious zionists, whom the rest of the zionists perceive as freaks), to frum Jews (be they Ashkenazi or even worse, non-Ashkenazi) is at best similar to how the Southern Whites in the US during Jim Crow perceived Blacks, andat worst, how the Nazis perceived Yidden. A ruling by the zionist courts, especially for a political offense, should be taken as seriously as one would perceive a conviction from a Nazi, Communist or Czarist court.January 23, 2023 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #2158842
comitting a crime doesn’t always require teshuvah. Aveiros, violations of Hashem’s will require teshuva. People, especially women, often equate the word “illegal” with “wrong” and “aveirah,” but these are distinct concepts. Not every crime is wrong from a torah perspective, and not everything that’s wrong from a torah perspective is an aveirah.
Rav chaim kanievsky clearly wrote that israel, as an illegitimate state, has no right to impose taxes on its citizens. Rabbi Deri did some shtick to avoid taxes. According to the gadol hador, he did absolutely nothing wrong and has zero to do teshuvah for, even though it was illegal under israeli made-up law.
So not only did he not do an aveirah, he did nothing wrong either, as there’s no moral imperative to pay taxes to an oppressive, anti religious shmad state, especially when most of it will go to fund things that are, actually, sinful, such as israeli public schools and the abominable gender-mixed army.
If the law was valid according to the torah, then yes, barring Rabbi Deri would make some sense; but not a lot. Because politicians always scream about giving people who are “justice involved” second, third, fourth and fifth chances. In New York City, landlords will soon not be allowed to do background checks to see if someone was a murderer, because you canrt hold someone’s past against them.
Why should someone who did a crime not be able to hold office if he “paid his debt to society” or whatever they call it?January 23, 2023 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #2158860
Reb Aryeh is not only completely innocent but he’s a tzadik who has dedicated his life to Klal Yisroel and follows Daas Torah. That some corrupt secular anti-Torah/non-Torah court following man-made rules based on the whims of Mechallel Shabbos legislators and judged upon by Mechallel Shabbos “judges”, has absolutely zero bearing and no credibility whatsoever.
The only ones who can judge him or anyone else are Talmidei Chachimim Dayanim sitting on a bona fide Beis Din acting in the capacity of a Din Torah and strictly following the Torah and Halacha and Halachic rules of evidence.January 23, 2023 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #2158885littleeemaParticipant
People, especially women, often equate the word “illegal” with “wrong” and “aveirah,”
so glad we have you big strong smart men to explain all this to us….
so remind me again why YOU need shemiras anayim and we don’T??January 23, 2023 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #2158875
Is Deri as big a tzadik as your Lev Tahor besties or are they bigger since they dress chassidish and in burkas?January 23, 2023 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #2158893GadolhadorahParticipant
If the Ebeshter wanted Israelis to be subject exclusively to a judical system Talmidei Chachimim Dayanim sitting on a bona fide Beis Din acting in the capacity of a Din Torah, he would have sent Moishiach by now. Until then, Reb Aryeh is a convicted felon removed from office by a PM indicted for his own felonies.January 24, 2023 12:08 am at 12:08 am #2158899
Little; men and women have strengths and weaknesses. Men are subject to their yatzer hora, but are more logical. Women aren’t as pulled by passions and are more resolute, but fall victim to daas kalah, lack of logical, analytical reasoning.January 24, 2023 10:30 am at 10:30 am #2159031DuvidfParticipant
Avira dearah do you have a mareh makom where Rav Kanievsky writes what you claim??
One of the 7 mitzvos pf Bnei Noach is to set up courts and laws, no matter what you think of the government in israel why would their courts be worse than at least other bnei noach??January 24, 2023 10:30 am at 10:30 am #2158965PekakParticipant
“The State is illegitimate, therefore it’s laws don’t obligate us”.
That’s pure unadulterated hogwash. Can I run red lights because I’m unhappy with Biden, Hochul, Adams and the other elected officials who are officially serving my district?
Government exists, Law and Order is applied (or not) as they see fit. Anarchy is never the right way to go.January 24, 2023 10:30 am at 10:30 am #2158956
Gadol, ao Hashem wants people to rule against halacha, and your evidence for it is that if he didn’t, he would have brought moshiach.
I suppose you’d say that He wants gang violence, substance abuse, murder, and child abuse, because if he didn’t, he would have sent moshiach by now to stop it.
Twisted.January 24, 2023 10:30 am at 10:30 am #2158955Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Ehrliche Sephardi Rabonim (ok,ok) I know do not refer to names of Sephardi politicians like that, from which I deduce, they are not holding them in high esteem.
My understanding of the situation is that the new Knesset changed the law to allow Deri to sit in Knesset, but Supreme Court invalidated that rule. Supposedly, without having solid bias for doing that.
We know 2 successful democratic systems around us – US with constitution, and UK with Parliament as Sovereign. While Jewish ideal polity seem to include strong courts, this presumes Torah-based courts, with Torah creating a standard similar to Constitution in US. As Israeli courts do not have such structure, they seem to rely on their personal (possibly biased) feeling of justice, in effect having a small unelected group having unlimited powers. This does not look like a good idea to me.January 24, 2023 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #2159078Yechezkel18Participant
You obviously don’t know the facts.
In this particular case the prosecutors (all leftist political hacks, nobody denies this) investigated Deri for 6 years. The issue at hand was really a transaction orchastrated by his brother in law, and was at worst grey not outright illegal (if it was a slam dunk they wouldn’t have needed 6 years to indict him).
Deri chose to enter a plea bargain instead of a legal battle in front of a leftist judge. It was clear that he was only leaving his office until the next elections.
The judge who signed off on the plea bargain excoriated the prosecutors for their cruel treatment of Aryeh Deri (his words).
What the supreme court did over here was nothing less than a coup, they 1st asserted the power to disqualify any law which they seem unreasonable, 2nd they decided that the Knesset was unreasonable in appointing Deri as a minister (no American court would dare decide if something so subjective in nature is reasonable), 3rd they decided to force Deri to accept their interpretation of his words and intentions (which itself is crazy) and hold him liable to it as if it was a civil commitment to another party (in other words they held him to their interpretation of his words to one party and held him to that standard with a totally different plaintiff – which in America at least, would have no standing to sue.
If you are confused by the above or aren’t aware of these details you have no business commenting on it. The logical conclusion by every level headed human is that the courts in Israel need some limitations, as it stands they usurp more and more power with zero checks on power and zero recourse for rouge justices.January 24, 2023 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #2159093besalelParticipant
Avira: can you please point me to the source for this:
Rav chaim kanievsky clearly wrote that israel, as an illegitimate state, has no right to impose taxes on its citizens.January 24, 2023 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #2159131
It’s an open Ran in Nedarim. The Ran paskens that Dina Dmalchusa doesn’t apply in Eretz Yisroel, since the very basis for Dina Dmalchusa is that the local King allows Jews to live in his country, therefore he has the Halachic right to tax the Jews. But since Jews have a G-d given natural right to live in Eretz Yisroel without anyone else’s permission, the Ran writes the Jews have no obligation to pay taxes to the local rulers in Eretz Yisroel and otherwise have no Halachic obligation of Dina Dmalchusa in Eretz Yisroel.January 24, 2023 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #2159144
Besalel, it’s in a letter obtained by rabbi yaakov Shapiro, author of the encyclopedic “the empty wagon.” I’ve seen it personally.January 24, 2023 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #2159188
Jews have a G-d given natural right to live in Eretz Yisroel without anyone else’s permission? Don’t you actually believe that Jews are not allowed to live there in large numbers due to the three shvuos?January 24, 2023 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2159224DuvidfParticipant
ujm – The Rambam and Rashbam argue on the Ran over there, Chasam Sofer in Teshuvos choshen mishpat 44 also limits the Ran as well to taxes imposed by the king for his personal needs as opposed to things imposed for public welfare which even the Ran would agree to.January 24, 2023 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2159222
Dofi: I’ve addressed the three shvuos extensively elsewhere on this forum. Please search the old threads on that topic. Your question was answered numerous times.January 24, 2023 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2159212
Gadol, read the gemara; large numbers are prohibited to enter at a time. There’s no limit on how many can live there altogether.January 24, 2023 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #2159238
You’re avoiding the question and your previous posts show that you don’t actually believe Jews have a right to live there. And do you claim that Harav Chaim Kanievsky, zt”l didn’t pay taxes?January 24, 2023 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #2159323
Dofi: I’m concerned over your well-being and am hoping you’re feeling psychically okay. Firstly, my previous posts never said any such thing or anything close to it; secondly, I’ve never made any mention or reference to HaRav Chaim Kanievsky zt’l, not here and not previously; thirdly and most importantly, you haven’t referenced my three wives and eighteen children in almost six months, whereas in the past you were sure to inquire about them at least once every three days. (Sorry, have to run; mom’s calling me out of the basement. Looks like four of the kids are ganging up on two of the younger ones. Might have to drop one off at the CTL compound.)January 25, 2023 6:19 am at 6:19 am #2159355
You have frequently quoted the Satmar Rebbe, zt”l and his opposition to Israel. He was against Jews making aliyah in numbers, i.e., the more than three million who have already done so. So do you really believe that every Jew have a G-d given natural right to live in Eretz Yisroel without anyone else’s permission?
You also insist that the Israeli government is illegitimate and that Dina D’Malchusah does not apply. If that’s the case, surely the Gadol Hador, Harav Chaim Kanievsky, zt”l must have paskened that Jews flaunt Israeli law and not pay taxes, right?
You haven’t mentioned your three wives and eighteen children in quite some time. I hope that means you’re doing better “psychically” and that the medication is helping. Better go answer your mother.January 25, 2023 11:31 am at 11:31 am #2159446DaMosheParticipant
If the state is illegitimate, and its laws are not binding on anyone, then why do you care if Deri is part of it or not? Are you trying to grant it legitimacy by having him be part of it?
Deri wasn’t only convicted for tax violations. Years earlier, he was also convicted for accepting bribes, which is an issur d’Oraysa.January 25, 2023 11:32 am at 11:32 am #2159405ZushyParticipant
Back to R’ Aryeh Deri
1) Nave Deromi – a major Israeli journalist who writes for the left leaning Ha’Aretz, and other outlets expressed clearly thta which everyone knows, that the ONLY reason Deri was not allowed to be a minister was due to him being part of a right wing government – in fact despite his indictment both Lapid and Gantz had clearly expressed to sit in government with him.
2) Deri was NEVER indicted. – at least not this time round. Simple fact. He entered a plea bargain to save himself and everyone else time.
3) The “bargain” included something totally bizarre and unheard of in any other country.
Rather than a monetary fine or communal service, the bargain was clinched on Deri resigning from the government. A similar arrangement was made with Rabbi Litzman. This cannot be described as a penalty, it is simply a wat for a judge to say if you give me what i want I will give you what you want.
4) The plea deal clearly specified that it was only in place for that government, there has since been elections, and the plea deal is undoubtedly over.
5) The K’nesset has at no stage passed a law preventing even a convicted criminal serving as a minister, this “PSEUDO-LAW” was INVENTED by the courts during Deri’s previous troubles.
6) By this stage even the left leaning Lapid and President Herzog has given up denying that the court is way to big for its own boots, they simply suggest that a bi-partisan committee get involved.
It is the only the extreme left Merav Micha’eli etc… who are still insisting that no reform is necessary.
7) Even the Obama nominee Elana Kagan was forced to declare her lack of respect for Aharon Barack views before her confirmation.January 25, 2023 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #2159613y1836Participant
Avira- i’m not aware of your Mareh Makom from Rav Chaim, however i do know that Rav Ovadya, the spiritual leader of the Shas Party, and of Rabbi Deri, has an explicit Teshuvah writing that Dinah Dimalchusah applies to the Isreaeli goverment, and one can’t argue “Kim li”; and i would imagine that Rabbi Deri would be bound by this Psak.
Incidentally, Rav Moshe also held that taxes in Israel are binding.
Regardless of Dinah Dimalchusa, though, one of the most Chamur Aveiros in the Torah is Chillul Hashem. For a religious leader, representing Torah to be caught evading taxes, would, i imagine consitute a big Chilul Hashem (“See, those religious parties are dishonest also”).
I do not want to judge anyone; and i know Rabbi Deri has definitely done much good, but to pretend he did nothing wrong is a complete distortion of Yiddeshkeit.January 26, 2023 7:01 am at 7:01 am #2159770Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
what? we have people here discussing a topic and bring opinion of a gadol while not mentioning the other ones who disagree?! unbecoming.
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