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Can an Ashkenazi cook Kitniyos for a Spherdi on Pesach? Or even better, this year last day of Pesach in EY is Friday. Which means that Israelis can’t eat chometz on Shabbos Isru Chag. So can an Israeli cook/bake Kitniyos on Pesach (Chol HaMoed or Friday with an Eruv) and eat it on Shabbos?
SiDi™
Ask your LOR.
As a halochic discussion without paskenen, I would think yes. The heter of
maybe guest will come who can use it, but over here there is no maybe because the sefadi is in front of us and you can also give it to your young child.1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Technically an Israeli can even accept bread from a non-Jew and eat it but this causes problems if he is not using disposable utensils (some of which are actually very nice). Per the Yalkut Yosef 448:5:It is permitted to eat Chometz on a Shabbat which is immediately after Sheviyi Shel Pesach – there is no muktza involved, and you if it was sold to the non-Jew according to Halacha you may eat it on the day of Shabbos immediately after Sheviyi Shel Pesach. However you have to be extra careful not to take the chometz on Sheviyi Shel Pesach since then you will be prohibited to eat it since you have done Baal Yira’eh U’Baal Yimotzei. (Yechave Daat 2 Siman 64, Yabia Omer Orach Chaim 9 Siman 46)
Why would it be assur?
The Rema says “we dont eat”
The Mishna Berurua is more explicit “D’lo kiblu aleihen rak l’esor B’achilason” while he says this as opposed to having Hanaah which Remah says is muttar, it seems clear the issur is to eat it.\The question is what is the status of the pot that kitniyos was cooked in? Many years ago I heard from a posek that a woman forgot that corn is kitniyos and added it to her chicken soup. When he was asked what to do he told them to freeze it to use after peasch (he didn’t say find a sefardi to eat it) and that the pot had to be kashered.
Avi K,
How can you eat chometz after shvi’i shel pesach which “was sold to the non-Jew according to Halacha” It still belongs to the non-jew.
iacisrmma, The RMA 453 says that if kitniyas falls into a pot and gets cooked it does not asser the pot because בדיעבד it does not asser it provided there is רוב. The question is if she did not know it is kitniyas is that lekatchila or bedaved?
Adocs, if he gives it to you a gift.
Laskern, if she does not know that it is kitniyot it is oness.
I plan to make some tehina on cho hamoed for use on Shabbos.
“The pot had to be kashered”, Why
That is what this posek told them to do. I heard it from the posek. I can only guess that he was machmir for “bliyos” of kitniyos.
” I can only guess that he was machmir for “bliyos” of kitniyos.”
Being “machmir” has to have some halachic basis. I i told you I tie my hand behind my back all of PEsach. Why? To be machmi, you woudl rightly question said “chumra”
Kitniyos is batal berov, the chicken soup was muttar to eat on Pesach (unless it was Rov corn, which is hard to imagine) and obviously the pot was muttar too. The Chavos daas says it can even be used ben yomo. but certainly the pot is fine after meis leis.
Obviously we dont lechatchila, add kitniyos to food even if will be batul, and arguably the woman in question had other soup available so even once added it was easy to eat other food. But that doesnt change the halacha that the soup and certainly the pot where muttar
There is a cute joke. When someone was machmir, they said that you are like a dog. A dog is also machmir considering everything tref and therefore he should get it.
How can you eat chometz after shvi’i shel pesach which “was sold to the non-Jew according to Halacha” It still belongs to the non-jew.
What if he tells you, “It’s OK, go ahead and eat?”
(And don’t tell me that you can’t because you can’t make a kinyan on Shabbos. You don’t need to make a kinyan to eat someone else’s food with their permission. When you’re a guest at a Shabbos table and they make hamotzi, I’m sure you don’t make a formal kinyan on your challah before you eat it.)
ubiquitin: I spok to a talmid of Rav Belsky who also held that pots in which kitniyos was cooked had to be kashered since since Rav Belsky held that kitniyos is a safeik chametz. As to the chicken soup case, obviously the poseik held it was not bitul bshishim based on the ingredients.
Iacisrmma: I wonder if your poseik was basing his psak on The Ramah 464:1 in the case of mustard?
Iac, I question that talmid’s memory. The OU Kosher website says “Rav Belsky ruled that one may even place hot food directly on top of a paper towel on Pesach. The starch that is used in paper products in America can be assumed to be at most only kitniyot, and because the starch binds strongly to the paper, it is unlikely that any starch will transfer into the food. Poskim write that one is permitted to hang lamps of oil above their table, even if the oil is kitniyot and may drip into the food. Unlike chametz, which cannot become nullified on Pesach in any proportion, kitniyot will be nullified in a simple majority.”
so far as I know no one holds that kitniyot are safek chametz. This is evident from the fact that an Ashkenazi may not only keep it but even cook for a Sepahardi (or even for himself if he is Israeli and Isru Chag falls on Shabbat.Look at my post 1497236
Avi K: I don’t as he was one of Rav Belsky’s personal assistants.
BT?W, for all those questioning the corn in the soup issue, please don’t overlook that things may not botul if they are B”EN, easily recognizable.
Why can’t you remove it?
The kitniyas itself is not asur after Pesach according the RMA 453 above, so how could the bliya be worse than the thing itself?
“since Rav Belsky held that kitniyos is a safeik chametz.”
I’m not sure what that means. He held that corn was safek chametz? Or was the concern that a kitniyos product (like ketchup contianing corn syrup) since by definition it dindnt have PEsach supervision, so memeila there is a safek chametz. The latter is a possibility the former is not, though it wouldnt apply to putting corn in soup.
“please don’t overlook that things may not botul if they are B”EN, easily recognizable.”
There is no need to overlook that. You peek in scoop out the corn, and the rest is mutar and can be served at the seder. (again assuming it is batul note: brov not beshishim).Again, I trust the poseik who told me what he paskened over the posters in the CR. He did not advise to scoop out the corn. The corn was added intentionally, not by accident.
Reb Shlomo Zalman Auerbach paskens that one should try to use separate utensils to cook kitniyos for a choleh. (Shomer Shabbos K’hilchasa 40:80). Based on this discussion among the CR poskim, why is that the suggested method?
“Based on this discussion among the CR poskim, why is that the suggested method?”
CR poskim? You mean like the Rema, Mishna Berura, Yechava daas?
Yes, it is better to avoid lechatchila using the same keilim. Tht ist the case you mentioned. Note: you accuratly quote the shemrias shabbos Kehilchaso as saying “one should TRY” ifnot practical there isn no problem whith using the same kli.
The part you left out is the footnote (181) where he writess that after 24 hours the kelim are mutar (without kashering)I see variations of this debate year after year. Is it really that difficult to forego kitniyos for another day or two after yom tov??
Iac, so what? In the Gemara there are machlokot between Amoraim over what their rebbe said – and both even swear to it. I even heard of a modern case where they argued as soon as they left the rav’s home. Of course, it could also be that you heard wrong. So far as I know there is absolutely no makor for saying that they are safek chametz. What Rav Belsky might have said, which I did hear, that the minhag was adopted because of a marit ayin – kitniyot are used to make bread (corn bread in particular was very widespread) and people would think that it was regular bread.
Ubi, here in Israel there is a hashgacha that specifies that it is kitniyot. I heard that with the growth of the Orthodox Sephardi community in the US the OU also has such a hashgacha now.
“Ubi, here in Israel there is a hashgacha that specifies that it is kitniyot”
Yes but in the US there wasnt until recently the Star K has such a hashgacha called Star-S I’m not sure about the OU though. At nay rate 1) when this story took place the hechsher may not have existed 2) the product may not have been under Star-S making it “safek chametz.
Obviously I wsnt there Im just trying to make sense of what is reported in Rabbi Belsky’s name.
GH
“I see variations of this debate year after year. ”
Its first for me.” it really that difficult to forego kitniyos for another day or two after yom tov??”
1) Maybe
2) who says it is diffcult? We are discussing waht is muttar and assur. If it doesnt interest you, there is no need to comment, If someone is forcing you to comment blink so we know your in danger , we will send helpUbiquitin….yes, I am being held captive at an undisclosed location in Chumrahville and forced to eat nothing but kitniyos by a bunch of sephardeshe zealots. My point was rather simple…when in doubt, don’t. Otherwise, get a Sehpardeshe chef for eruv shabbos/ achron shel pesach (in EY) if ther is an absolue need to cook/bake kitniyos. I suspect this becomes an issue (along with others) when you have “mixed marriages’ aka a livish marries a Sehpardeshe yid and the kids alternate in-laws for yom tovim.
My point was rather simple…when in doubt, don’t
So you’re saying that one should generally be machmir rather than ask a halachic shailoh? I’d hate to be a member of that religion.
Meno, look at my post 1497503
No Meno…when in DOUBT, dont.. If you can get a quick and definitive psak from your local R/P than you are no longer in doubt. In many cases, its not that easy to get such a definitive yes/no, or simply don’t feel you want to bother your R/P with a minor question. Rather than take a risk, many of us would simply forego a potentially problematic issue, especially on matters of kashruth around pesach etc.
GH
“My point was rather simple…when in doubt, don’t. ”
That is a terrible approach. When in doubt ask.And even if you decide to be machmir due to a doubt or as an extra strigency of some sort, so you dont see the need to ask.. Using said doubt to try to stifle learning is an even worse approach than being needlessly “machmir” for yourself .
I don’t eat kitniyos a whole year. I keep telling myself, “Is it really that difficult to forego kitniyos for another day or two?” then after a while, it’s Pesach again.
Duhhh. No one is stifling learning, if thats what you call it. The inyan of eating X, Y, or Z is a totally legit line of inquiry and 90 percent of the threads here parse the details of shaiylos which are not matters of pikuach nefesh or where a mistake rises to the level of chayav kores….it was a simple observation that for many of us, if we are not confident about a nuance of kashruth we generally forgoe an opportunity to indulge until such time as we are no longer in doubt. End of story…
GH,
Again, why should I be machmir for no reason?I like to enjoy life. I also enjoy learning, even the subject matter is not immediately relevant. As such, I would hate to be part of whatever religion you’re describing.
“if thats what you call it. ”
That is exactly what I call it. I for one quickly reviewed the relevant halacha to make sure I recalled correctly. Thank yu to the OP for bringing itup and Iacrisma for chalanging
You said, quoute “I see variations of this debate year after year. Is it really that difficult to forego kitniyos for another day or two after yom tov??”
It seems doubtful you were just amking small talk about difficulty of keeping kitniyos. It seemed clear particularly with your introductory ” “I see variations of this debate year after year” that you were in fact trying to shut down the conversation. I am sorry if I misunderstood your post.If the Mods were to to shut down each new thread whose focus borders on the proper etiquette for dancing on the head of a pin, we would be left to debating the virtues of everyone’s favorite Shabbos recipes for tofu-based chulent or whether its appropriate for the gabbi rishon to walk out of shul to “supervise” the Kiddush club just when the rav begins his d’var torah… the REALLY important issues facing klal yisroel .
“we would be left to debating the virtues … the REALLY important issues facing klal yisroel ”
Again, I dont understand why does it bother you what other people discuss. there are (currently) 26,303 topics the odds that each of them will be a “REally important issue” are zero. This topic bores you you feel like you see “see variations of this debate year after year.” that is totally fine just scroll past the thread and roll your eyes. Why does it bother you that others discuss their “favorite Shabbos recipes for tofu-based chulent “?
Again, you don’t get it…I am the principal contributor to the tofu based chulent debate and other non-sequitors…it doesn’t bother me but obviously has you concerned you might miss out on something of greater importance…enough said, back to the kitchen to work on non-chometzidik alternatives to my tofu based cholent for a non-kitniyos eating litvish son-in-law…
chag kosher v’sameach (w/o kitniyos)
The common practice is to make a potato cholent.
Rabbi Yoel Schonfeld (Mora Dasra of the Young Isreal of Kew Gardens Hills and Rabbinic coordinator for the OU) discussed this issue yesterday and was wondering if kitniyos were actually muktzah on Pesach for someone who does not eat kitniyos. He concluded that to him it is a question and he didn’t state a definitive answer.
Iacisrama
I’m not sure why there is a question.
There is no question kitniyos is muttar behanah
you can give it to a sefardi
Most allow it for infnats (most baby formula is kitniyos)Food on Yom Kippur isnt muktzah (See Remah 612:11) So kitniyos on Pesach is more chamur than food on Y”K???
(chametz is muktzah on PEsach but not comparable as since it is assur behanaa it has no use)See in detail Yechaveh Daas Chelek 1 siman 9 (for those who don’t eat kitniyas) whether you can feed kitniyas to the young and whether the pot needs hechshar.
There is a Magen Avraham in Hilchas Yom Kippur 610, that makes a distinction between chometz and Yom Kippur. Chometz cannot be touched because everything else is permitted, whereas Yom Kippur all food is forbidden.
See the Sefer Paninim Yekorim who explains with this why Chavo said that you can’t touch the etz hadaas because all other trees are permitted.BTW
Some more thoughts1) The Remah says befeirish that kitniyos-oil can be used to light candles so obviously it isnt muktzah (its quite the stretch to say he means only chol hamoed and at nay rate obviously there is no difference between chol hamoed and yom tov regarding issur kitniyos)
The mishna berura seems to find the mere fact hat can light with kitniyos so obvious that , he exaplians the Rema’h chidush as being that the kitniyos can be mixed with water.2) Rav Yitzchok Elchanon was among the gedolei poskim of the 19th century and held derivatives of kitniyos example corn syrup as opposed to corn are muttar. Obviosuly Klal Yisroel did not accept this pesak but it seems funny that not only arent derivitives mutar but even belyios that are pagum will assur food (ie need to kasher keilim after they re aino ben yomo) . ITs possible, just seems funny
Back ot keilim
see kaf hchaim 24 says after meis leis its mutar
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9084&st=&pgnum=135ubi and others: I have confirmed with Rabbi Gersten of the OU that Rabbi Belsky held that Kitniyos is more than just a minhag and is a chumra so much so that one who cooks kitniyos in a pesach pot must kasher the pot.
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