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Definitely make sure the girl can cook – or is willing to learn to – before getting engaged.
That should be the first date. The girl should make some food, if the guy likes it, they can proceed.
Not fair!
To even suggest that COOKING should be a part of a shidduch, that is. A woman’s value doesn’t lie in her cooking-and if a man reduces her to that, shame on him!
Cooking is one of the most important jobs of a wife.
My wife made me cookies while we were dating. That’s how I knew she could cook. I made her pizza.
I suppose girls who can’t cook shouldn’t get married.
They should be taught to cook.
That is the height of unfair, expecting someone to be emaciated and a cordon bleu chef at the same time!
OTOH, if she cooks like Paul Proudhomme and looks like Paul Proudhomme, she’ll probably have a problem with shidduchim.
What i love about “dating in US” is that people are always looking for new ideas, and im never desappointed 🙂
Better to taste her mother’s cooking. If it’s not to your taste you probably won’t be happy with that the girls cooks either. Her reference point will be her mother’s cooking and seasoning.
It might be a good idea to first determine whether her kashrus standards are the same or better than those of her date.
Of course, isn’t the guy taking the woman to dinner a standard shidduch activity? This sounds like an underhanded way of getting to her to pick up the tab.
I agree. And the girl should insist on seeing how well the boy can change a washer, put together a sukkah, and take out the garbage, before agreeing to the shidduch. 🙁
BTW, my daughter, the gourmet cook, could not boil water before she got married – THAT, in spite of me being a (so I am told) great cook and baker who tried to teach her. She learned “on the job,” and I guarantee you nobody ever walks away from her table disappointed. And because of her kids’ serious allergies, she makes and bakes virtually everything from scratch with fresh ingredients.
Don’t judge a shidduch by what someone can or cannot do, but rather on what that person is or is not, in their middos.
I did taste my wife’s cooking before we were married. I would come up to NY for Shabbat and sleep by her landlord, but we often ate in her apartment, usually with her roommates or friends from Stern. I knew of her culinary delights before we were engaged.
Is someone going to tell me that was assur?
takahmamash: You did the right thing by tasting her food before engagement.
oomis: Taking out the garbage is part of a wife’s domestic duties. (Not to say that the husband shouldn’t help out sometimes.)
The girl doesn’t need to be a cook before marriage. But she needs to be willing to learn to cook.
Not enough details to know if there was a yichud issue.
Not everything which violates the Shulchan Aruch’s principle of “meod meod” can be neatly put in the assur box.
Unless the guy is willing to pony up a dvar torah at every meal, who cares if she can cook, it will only be zivchei meisim anyway. Noone ever claimed zivchei meisim tastes good.
Joseph, some untalented people can learn to cook, but if there is no talent, cooking will always be a burden.
smarter question then the other narishkeit people ask thats for sure. maybe the first date should be a shopping trip , to see how he drives,parks,and acts in a grocery store then they prepare supper to see how she cooks and how he washes dishes!
Skripa
Not a bad idea going to the supermarket but you would have to go to one out of the area so you don’t bump into people you know.
Also I wonder what the people will think when they see a boy and girl dressed up pushing a shopping cart. Maybe her mother can give her a shopping list and they can see how good he is at shopping , getting the right things.
from experience; the right things !never gonna happen!!
More importantly, a girl should make sure a fellow knows how to learn, gets up early, and can provide for a family before agreeing to a shidduch as these are the most important jobs of a husband.
The guy can learn to cook. I did!
I find some of the comments on this post to be very offensive to women. I am not a feminist, but when someone says that taking out the garbage is part of a wife’s domestic duties, that is completely crossing the line.
My father routinely takes out the garbage, does laundry, does shopping for Shabbos, cleans up, and does a bunch of other “domestic” duties- and he does not view it as “helping out sometimes.” He does it because he is a mentch.
He has also done plenty of cooking over the years- he actually taught my mother how to cook when they first got married.
If you find that offensive, you might need more time before being ready for shidduchim.
Technical20 will still find it offensive in 20 years.
I have plenty of friends who couldn’t cook before marriage and now cook gourmet meals, but they all admit that it was difficult for them during the first few months. Why add that to the stress of being newly married??
Coddling your girls and not teaching them cooking is easy in the short run, but causes problems in the long term. I personally think that a mother has a responsibility to teach her daughters cooking (and sons, but to a lesser degree) before marriage. My mother made sure we could all cook Shabbos by 12 for girls and 13 for boys. And yes, my husband definitely tasted some of my food before we got engaged, although I doubt it affected his decision.
although I doubt it affected his decision.
T613: You’re underrating yourself.
RY: How much are you paid to be her spokesman?
It depends on the guy. If he is a gourmet, he should taste some of her cooking, or at least tell her that he likes fancy food. TO the other extreme, I have one very happily married friend whose cooking expertise still extends only to noodles. Her husband is fine eating yeshiva food when he needs something new.
Marriage isn’t about being equal in every possible metric. It’s about doing what works for your relationship.
RebbYidd23- exactly.
I don’t object to the idea that women generally do the cooking and take care of other domestic responsibilities. What offends me is the belief that it is a woman’s DUTY to do such a thing, and not a man’s. (Read Rebbetzin Heller’s “Our Bodies, Our Souls” for an opinion on that sexist view.)
Torah613Torah- I agree with you that marriage is about doing what works for your relationship. In fact, that’s exactly my point: every husband and wife share responsibilities in a marriage based on what works for them, and obviously, there are some responsibilities that a woman generally takes while others that a man usually does, but there are no blanket rules. To write that “it is a woman’s duty to take out the garbage” – or, in fact, to take care of any given thing in a marriage – to me is demanding, sexist, entitled, and unmentschlich.
technical- even if you’re right that it is not a wife’s duty to cook/do domestic stuff, it is still common enough (especially among frum people) for a wife to do these things, that she should be assumed to. Acc. to bureau of labor stats I found online, on an average day, 40% of men do food prep or cleanup, while 70% of women do. Even among goyim, it is just more likely probabilistically that women will do the cooking. So why not expect that a frum girl know how to cook? Of course the guy can and should help her with chores, but the stats seem to suggest that despite feminism, women still do the cooking, so it’s a reasonable expectation. And Joseph might tell you that this is the way it’s supposed to be, although I’ll let him speak to that.
I laughed when I saw the opening thread!! Seriously??!! I know people who never set foot s kitchen until they got married, and somehow turned in to incredible cooks. If a girl can follow directions, she can follow a receipe (unless the receipe was written incorrectly). If you are so worried maybe include in the must have credentials you want in a girl, is one who is trained in a culinary school.
And while we are at it, Maybe girls should ask to see the boys room to see if he leaves his clothes on the floor… like his socks.
zogt_besser, I haven’t been in the CR long enough to know- but I would tend to bet that you’re male.
“That’s the way it’s supposed to be” – only a man would say that.
And yes, I have been taught how to cook- but I don’t enjoy it all that much. As a girl who is hoping to get married, obviously I would plan to cook for my husband, and try to make food the way he likes. I just resent the implication that it is my duty to do so, and my future husband is entitled to expect that I do.
For men/boys who are writing in here, how often do you thank your wife/mother for cooking meals for you? To me, gratitude symbolizes the opposite of entitlement. If a man is grateful for his wife’s cooking, as opposed to having the attitude of ???? ??, it completely changes the situation.
Such a farbrente feministic outlook is very unhealthy going into a marriage. The divorce rate has gotten terribly high r’l, and this is a large factor why.
Very easy way to vindicate yourself- by putting down mine as outrageous.
??? ????? ????, ??? ???? ????
Oh, and you don’t think that you have to thank your wife (or whoever does your cooking) for cooking for you?
Another reason for the high divorce rate is men who have a huge sense of entitlement and don’t appreciate their wives.
There’s nothing needing vindication other than I don’t know how happy he’ll be after the chasuna, IY”H, when you yell out “Zecharia, I resent the implication that it is my duty to cook. Can we eat out in Glatt Chow after you take out the garbage that is too heavy for me since its been building up for the past week?”
Such a farbrente feministic outlook is very unhealthy going into a marriage. The divorce rate has gotten terribly high r’l, and this is a large factor why.
i come from a place were i believe it would great if all kids were raised by stay at home mom’s and no feminist ideals have ever attracted me. With that premise i have to say that there is very little more unhealthy to a marriage than that attitude of yours. And as damaging as it is (yes, is) to a wife and relationship, it is even more damaging to people who read it on public forums and think that you are speaking from a Torah perspective.
Feminism may not be right, but your views aren’t either.
and the idea that you think the only two choices are having a wife who only does what you tell her, or having a wife who refuses to do what you tell her is very interesting. for some of us there is a whole world between those two choices that contains partnership.
Why assume that if a woman doesn’t accept that the cooking is “her job”, that implies she will refuse to do it. The cooking may be done by the woman but if that doesn’t work for them as a couple, it may not be. And as an aside, I know few if any households where the garbage is not taken out by the husband or sons.
I’m glad you’re keeping an eye on all your neighbors and making sure the guys are taking out the garbage! You keep up the good work and you’ll be getting your certificate from NOW, especially in light of all the liberal-leaning positions you’ve espoused on this forum over the years.
Syag- if you read my previous posts, that’s been my point the whole time.
I don’t think that anything I said is so outrageously feministic.
(Ok, maybe my point about “only a man would say that” was… take that back.)
If I was a woman, I certainly would not want to marry anyone who would refuse to marry me based on my (lack of) cooking abilities.
Sam, if you were a woman we could always teach you how to be a cook. 🙂
Is a potential wife’s unwillingness or lack of enthusiasm to cook less important than her wealth, looks or yichus?
Sam2- that would be my approach.
The thing is, I am not saying that I would not cook… in fact, quite the opposite. I have always had this idea in my mind that when I got engaged, I would ask my future mother-in-law to show me how to make the foods that my chosson liked, in the way he liked. Of course I would want to make my husband happy!
I just consider it demeaning to evaluate my cooking skills as a prerequisite for marriage.
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