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To all the oot’s:
There are many people in brooklyn who stay in the city, including myself. I personally think that It doesn’t make sense for 8 weeks the husband and wife should’nt be together during the weekdays.
The point is that HASHEM is everywhere and that people should not be hypocrites and they should continue doing the same elsewhere as they do at home. In addition they should maintain their level of tznius wherever they go.
It is true that somehow some women forget themselves at the pool because there is a mechitza. They do lie out to dry off and sun tan, and may not realize (not necessarily on purpose) that they are not appropriate to say the least and if their daughters were to do the same they would be very shocked. In addition they should realize that if they do not walk around at home in front of their small children in underwear, the bathing suit does not cover more than that, so as soon as they get out of the pool they should cover up what they keep covered at home. Again, in a more modern environment they are not as makpid, but if you are in an environment where you are makpid and you wear stockings all the time, the pool area should not be different.
EDITED
What is wrong with tanning if there is a proper fence seperating the men from women?
If there are problems with bungalow colonies, hotels, vacation spots, supermarkets, certain streets don’t go there.
says who – its not only you who doesn’t think its a good idea. Gedolim (i’d rather not mention who) from @ least 400 years ago were against the fact that husbands would go away for wks at a time for PARNASSA. Now that’s talking about obviously poor people yet he still said its better to live even more poorly than to have the husband away. Its terrible for the husband, wife and children. No one gains. It’s terrible for the shalom bayis… and he was speaking about PARNASSA! here it’s more of a luxury thing, vacation.
Tanning is not the issue, the issue is how you are laying on the lounge chair and what you are exposing for others to see. Many women have their hair covered but are not conscience of the rest of their bodies.
Who are they required to cover for if its just women and little boys?
Many women cover their hair no matter who is around them. But women are not required to be tzanua in front of other women.
I don’t understand why the women would have to be covered.
Do I have to spell it out for you? There are ways of sitting politely and there are ways of sitting not very nicely. There are ways of lounging nicely and there are ways of lounging that are a little too comfortably and open for viewing. Is that clear enough?
Besides tznius issues, the costs of a bungalow is skyrocketing.
I hope, HOPE that no one borrows money to afford this trend.
Listen, I understand you think its not “proper” but its not a violation of halacha. Lets learn to pick our battles.
SJS: Pisuk Raglayim is more of a Pritzus vs. Tznius problem, and could be true even without any men around.
smartcookie:
Dont lump all men in the same boat. Most women love the country and the husbands sacrifice to let them go. The men have work so they must be in the city anyways and many go up Thursday and leave Sunday night so its not nearly as geferlach as you make it sound.
If men want to sin and look at women on the street they will do it regardless of if their wife is at home in the city or if they are in the country.
GAW, I’ve seen plenty of women tanning and I personally haven’t witnessed pritzus. But then again, I’m not 100% sure of the halachos regarding pisuk raglayim. Can you expand?
Not here. I don’t know enough about it.
Look it up or ask your LOR.
WIY- the way I put it was rather in a humorous way. Of course, that’s not what the men do here.
But the etzem idea, of the men being home along for 2 mnths doesn’t bring good. It’s great for the kids. but its not my style.
Let everyone decide for themselves what to do with their life.
well informed yid – yes yes yes, but its still not the right way to do it. I’m not making this up there were gedolay olam from 100s of yrs ago against the idea (regarding parnasa)already.
“Many women cover their hair no matter who is around them. But women are not required to be tzanua in front of other women.
I don’t understand why the women would have to be covered. “
Thats exactly the problem. There is no Halachik issur however, there is a level of tznius between just a person dressing privatley in a room. Ever heard of the concept of even walls shouldn’t see a person? even a man should dress under his blankets. i’m not making this up , its sh”a if you want an exact source, to look it up ill get it for you. And have any of you ever heard of the concept that a child – boy over 2 shouldn’t see his mother exposed? i will have to look up the source again, but one of the gedolim said that you cant expect such a child to grow up to be a t”ch. Is it worth it? is it worth the risk ? and what type of chinuch are we giving our children? Mommy can be practically naked in front of other women, all sensitivities gone.?!!? and then we wonder why we have such chinuch problems. NO dont jump at me, i’m not blaming it all on this, just suggesting this can be a small factor adding to the big picture
Sof, I’m aware of what the shulchan aruch says regarding dressing.
If the problem is the little boys, then little boys shouldn’t be allowed at the pool. Not that the woman should dress in more clothing at the pool.
Perhaps the problem is more about making everything assur. If its muttar, it should be up to the individual woman to decide. It shouldn’t be large groups of people screaming that it shouldn’t be done.
Unfortunately, this 100% affects young women. Everything is forbidden to them, even if its allowed. When everything is assur, nothing really matters.
Think I’m wrong? When I was younger, long skirts were assured, even though they are 100% muttar. So women started wearing shorter skirts. And now, women aren’t covering their knees. If people would stop concentrating on assuring the muttar, maybe people would follow basic halacha.
SJS what exactly is wrong being careful at the pool? It is not necessary to wear a bikini, it is not necessary to splat yourself out on a lounge chair like a squashed bug, it is not necessary to let everything hang out so to speak. One doesn’t have to cover up in a bourka either there is some common sense that can be applied and little children boys and girls do have to go with their mommies. It is ok to put on a towel to cover up certain areas. it is fine to cross your legs and be careful what you are showing, you just have to use common sense.
SJS, some women feel perfectly comfortable nursing a baby in front of other women and some women wouldn’t dream of it. Then again some women are very uncomfortable when other women just go right ahead and nurse their babies right in front of them. It takes a bit of common sense in these situations as well.
sjs – note : i didn’t say anything was assur. I said sensitivities. and c’mon use common sense. if you want to swim swim, but you don’t have to swim in a bikini. If you want to tan, tan but you don’t have to lay out in a bathing suit you’ll pardon me. You can tan in basic clothing. No you don’t have to dress in shapeless robes but you get the point. no one is assuring anything. I’m not sure but al pi halacha its probably ok for a little boy to see his mother, the sefer i read said taht you can’t expect him to grow up into a t”ch. Some like to be extra careful with bathing suits, they use the chassidishe ones that basically have short sleeves and shorts. Some go in T shirts, and shorts, some just high neck bathing suits. but c’mon everyone can use their common sense on whats appropriate/not. (hmm common sense is not so common after all)
With all these horror stories, its no wonder we constantly need our Gedolim to implore upon us to keep far far away from these awful activities, and going to places like Florida.
“sjs – note : i didn’t say anything was assur. I said sensitivities. and c’mon use common sense. if you want to swim swim, but you don’t have to swim in a bikini. If you want to tan, tan but you don’t have to lay out in a bathing suit you’ll pardon me. “
Sorry, but if they are just among women and VERY young boys, I don’t see a problem. Why shouldn’t a woman wear a two-piece suit if she wants to swim in one, and why should she not tan in a bathing suit (what was the pardon me for – is there something wrong with the words “bathing suit?”) ? I can understand the idea of needing to be tzniusdig when men are around, but there is no issur on women seeing other women dressed less formally when there are NO men present. And trying to make it somehow appear to be untzniusdig does not make it so.
Sorry, but if they are just among women and VERY young boys, I don’t see a problem. Why shouldn’t a woman wear a two-piece suit if she wants to swim in one, and why should she not tan in a bathing suit (what was the pardon me for – is there something wrong with the words “bathing suit?”) ? I can understand the idea of needing to be tzniusdig when men are around, but there is no issur on women seeing other women dressed less formally when there are NO men present. And trying to make it somehow appear to be untzniusdig does not make it so.
Sorry, don’t agree. Tznius, (as most things,) is made up of both the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. While wearing a two piece around women may not be a problem according to halacha, (and that would be for “regular” frum people, not someone whos going from a public beach to a shaitel) IMO, its not really (for lack of a better word) promoting it either. What may be for the rest of the world, is not necessarily for us. I once heard that if theres ever a question about tznius, one should ask themselves if Mashiach were to come while they were wearing it, if they would be proud of themselves. How many people would be proud to greet Mashiach in a two piece bathing suit?
Some frum clothing stores have public dressing rooms, and the way I see it, it sort of defeats the purpose. Have people try on tznius clothing in a non-tznius manner?!
Kapusta- funny about your comparison with moshiach, because I always think to myself:
It there’d be a fire now and I would have to RUN for my life, would I be embarrassed with the way I look(or with what I’m doing at the moment)?
We had a fire in the building one night and I ran out without shoes and socks.I wasn’t too comfortable to say the least. Imagine looking worse than that. Imagine the embarrassment.
I think this thought should constantly be on everyones mind.
so sc what should we do? sleep in our nicest clothing? when i was a child i used to keep a large pile of clothing at the foot of my bed in case of fire. i am pretty sure we are not supposed to live like that all the time. i would be embarrassed to greet Moshiach or go out in public in my night garment which is 100% tzniusdik but i still need to wear something appropriate to bed.
No ketzies cmon, I sleep in pjs too! But you get my point. Everything we do should be appropriate.
kapusta:
There is no bathingsuit that is Tzniusdig enough to greet Moshiach in so that moshol doesnt work. There are different attires appropriate for different activities. However a frum woman who takes Tznius seriously should feel very uncomfortable and “undressed” in a 2 piece bathing suit. The goal is to always maintain as high a level of Tznius as possible. Even if you arent on the madregah to feel uncomfortable in a 2 piece, you should, and therefore dont dress that way because its not Tznius and eventually by habit of always dressing Tznius the feeling to want to always dress Tznius will come.
Lets get back to being in the swimming pool and what is appropriate in that environment. Let’s also keep in mind the type of crowd we are sharing the pool with and the need to be sensitive to their “sensitivities”.
So the point here is more so to use the common sense that Hashem gave you and understand in what environment you can literally “let your hair down” and where you really shouldn’t. It has nothing to do with minhagim or halachas. It has to do with being sensitive to other people’s feelings and sensitivities. It also has to do with not baring too much in front of other people’s young children.
So if for instance you have your own pool at home, and you have the liberty of wearing whatever you want while swimming and tanning and lounging at the pool in whatever manner you wish, you must use the good sense Hashem gave you and realize that you are NOT AT HOME when sharing a pool with others.
Moshiach could come while people are in the mikvah, too. This is a silly thing for people to be getting worked up over,IMO. A swimming area is specifically for people to be wearing clothing meant for that area. As long as men are nowhere present, there is no justification for trying to make a case against swimwear that covers the essentials, even if it is not to your personal liking. then don’t wear it yourself. But please don’t think you are more proper than the lady who wants a better tan. And btw, I personally am on the conservative side when it comes to these things, and would never wear a two piece. But that is a personal preference, not because I feel they are untzniusdig in front of other women. If another woman likes the look, kol hakavod to her.
If there were a chance that any men might be able to see, then the regular bathing attire would ALSO be inappropriate, including the chassidic type (unless they cover the elbows and below the knees as well, and are not skin tight, of course).
“Some frum clothing stores have public dressing rooms, and the way I see it, it sort of defeats the purpose. Have people try on tznius clothing in a non-tznius manner?!”
That point actually makes sense to me. But it has nothing to do with swimming pools, where the accepted norm is to be in bathing suits.
There are bathing suits that are 100% tzanua, made from bathing suit material.
I just returned from another weekend in the Catskills (South Fallsburg area) and again, I did not see all the negativity everyone is worried about.
Not in the colony where I stayed, not in the colony next door where I went to daven mincha on shabbos or the colony up the road where I davened maariv sunday night.
Not in Walmart motsai shabbos at 2am on an emergency run for childrens motrin or shoprite at 2pm doing grocery shopping.
I think that all those who feel there are serious “issues” are in the wrong place at the wrong times and should learn from the vast majority of us how to behave.
I find it highly offensive that people use such broad brushes and are terribly mekatraig on whole groups of yidden under the guise of “kavod shamayim” and “preventing chillul hashem”.
I don’t think halachically its wrong when it comes to bathing suits-I think its more of not being in the “spirit of the law” to wear a tank top. You are with other ppl there should be a certain sense of shame to be dressed in something so skimpy.
to all those who wonder about the self-imposed exile we country go-ers put ourselves thru –
As a veteran of many years up and down the 17 (the main road to the “country”), I come away from 9 mid-week separation with 3 things
1) I learn to appreicate how hard it is to cook / do laundry after a day’s work
2) by seeing how many families truly work (kids, spouses, helping out, temper ect) I learn to appreciate my spouse and family all the more.
3) see how, despite the sacrafices I need to make for the sake of sholom bayis / raising a family, the alternative (being alone) is far worse.
Like all separations / challenges, you can use the time to brood and curse your fate, or use it as a springboard to see how fortunate you are.
Besides, its only 9 weeks, not the end of the world.
I find it very amusing when people bring up the challenges of the country, living in such tight communal quarters, etc. Yet I have never seen so many Yidden squished together like sardines as they are in Boro Park and in Williamsburg. Families are living on top of each other and the construction is no better than in the country. You can hear and practically see everything that is going on next door, upstairs and down stairs.
Please don’t say you know everything about another’s shalom bayis in the country and pretend that you don’t know what is going on in your own backyard at home. In addition, if you are a Yenta in the country you are probably a yenta at home as well. If you avoid Loshan hora at home you avoid it in the country.
Yes it is true that some people let their guard down in the country, but then those people are not that true and emesdik at home either, they are only putting on a show because of where they live. So let’s not blame the country or the bungalow colonies, lets blame people for not understanding and remembering it doesn’t matter where you are or where you go “HASHEM IS HERE, HASHEM IS THERE, HASHEM IS TRULY EVERYWHERE”.
Families that live in places like Boro Park and Williamsburg (the concrete jungle) need to get to the country for some fresh air and green scape. Kids need some place to run around in a safe environment where cars are not the biggest danger. The country has always been and will continue to be a place where families and friends gather to reclaim the basics, fresh air, space and some freedom from the constraints of the city.
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