At what point are you officially one side or the other?

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  • #983433

    Sam2
    Participant

    HakunaMatada: Rabbi Teitz (who was well-respected even in the Chareidi world; and many hold like him over R’ Moshe on sherry casks) was Mattir not covering elbows based on his reading of the Gemara and Rishonim. His opinion was respected but roundly disagreed with.

    HaKatan: Once again, your post is long on invective and short on examples. Find me one example of any Rabbi who will Mattir going to Broadway shows on the grounds that “Modernity trumps Halachah”. I could hear an argument that Kol Isha is a separate type of Ervah (though I don’t know anyone who actually says it) and therefore is Muttar in a case where there is no Davar Shebikdusha going on. And I see no reason why that would be an inherently “MO” position.

    Just face it, your assassination of hundreds of thousands of Frum Jews stems from anecdotes about a newspaper article (that I assure you the Rabbonim don’t read; sometimes the Commentator’s editors are Frummer and sometimes not as Frum; that doesn’t mean that “MO” as a whole says that going to bars is Muttar or encouraged) and a story about something that once happened in a high school.

    Face it, you have nothing. You are a bastion of Sinas Yisrael due to… I don’t even want to try and guess why. If you have anything substantive to ever say, fine. Until then, I doubt anyone wants to hear your spewing. There are ways to debate slightly different Derachim in Avodas Hashem. Yours isn’t it.

    #983434

    truthsharer
    Member

    Sam2, what is ironic is that when it suits him he uses “it’s a machlokes” (Sukkah on SA), but when it’s against the MO he can’t see that other’s take different opinions and “it’s a machlokes.”

    I think that is the biggest thing. The Charedim can’t see that there are other viewpoints out there.

    #983435

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Sam2: You said it perfectly about HaKatan.

    I especially like his line that chassidus is “traditional” Judaism. Chassidus was established, as I’m sure most people here know, by the Baal Shem Tov. It’s been written that he began it when he was 36 years old, which was in the year 1734. So Chassidus is about 279 years old. That’s a far cry from the Judaism which was established at Har Sinai! Additionally, the Baal Shem Tov changed Judaism because he felt the common Jew couldn’t relate to Judaism anymore,because they couldn’t learn Torah very well, so he started a movement to try and bring Jews closer to Hashem in other ways.

    It seems to me that the Besht was the one who was changing Judaism to try and “modernize” it for the people of his time. His de-emphasizing Talmud Torah was one of the main reasons the Vilna Gaon opposed chassidus.

    Chassidus is anything but traditional Judaism.

    #983436

    Sam2
    Participant

    truthsharer: Don’t blame “The Chareidim” on him. Contemporary society (not just Chareidim; the whole world today is much more into mob mentality and group-think) cannot take some arguments. But the vast majority of the Chareidi world, by and large, is much more respectful in the way that HakunaMatada is. HaKatan is an aberration, one who will have a tremendous amount of Din V’cheshbon to give some day for the hatred that he causes.

    #983437

    heretohelp
    Member

    I’d say you’re officially on one side when you’re throwing rocks at the other, or you’re riding a bus for more than an hour to protest the other side. Until then, you just have unofficial differences of opinion.

    #983438

    golfer
    Participant

    Unbelievable what this conversation has degenerated into in such a short time.

    I always thought that right wing, left wing, all wings, observe Yom Kippur. And wasn’t that just a couple of days ago?

    Pity all of you decided to ignore my comment early on.

    Much more to the point.

    And not likely to bring out the rock-throwing, invective-spewing alter egos of any of you.

    #983439

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    This conversation is , in many ways, totally erroneous. One can be on both sides of the divide! I know many chassidim (wearing bekeshe or frak) who are ardent Zionists. They also avail themselves of hetterim on some issues. What are they? Th examples given (covering hair, going to movies)does not put you into one camp specifically. Every so-called MO Rov will tell you that, lehalocho, you should cover your hair and avoid movies.How about beethoven in a concert? how about a youtube about syum hashas? As you see, you can do certain things and never be established in one side or another

    #983440

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Wow. So many attacks…

    Traditionally orthodox Jews do not, as far as I have heard, go on dates in bars/pubs.

    I never said sukkah on Shimini Atzeres was a machlokes. I simply said to ask the Rabbi of the person you observe behaving in such a manner.

    Regarding Zionism being idolatry and heresy; this has all been covered in the past. The Zionists struggle mightily and futilely with the three oaths. All of their attempted answers are nothing. Ask your LOR who knows the sugya. The Balfour declaration and the Or Sameach, Rambam’s omission of the oaths in Mishneh Torah, et al. The Zionists have no answers.

    The Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav did differ as to whether or not it was a maaseh Satan. But both held it was heresy. And there is no argument on that. Even Rabbi AY Kook never condoned militant Zionism. There is no dispute.

    #983441

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2:

    I’m not sure what hatred you believe I cause. Halacha cannot be compromised in its own name. Period. Anybody who chooses to do so and claims that Modernity or any other reason allows them to compromise halacha cannot expect to be considered a legitimate derech. I’m not sure what your problem with this is.

    Again, please don’t misunderstand my posts. My goal is to discuss what MO and Zionism are, and not, CH”V to hate or condemn anyone. Hashem is the only judge of people, and certainly not, lihavdil, myself. But when gedolim tell us that someone is wrong, then we (ask, if we have questions, and) listen to them.

    As for examples, read Rabbi Soloveichik’s own words, where he wrote that Orthodoxy would have to change to fit America. Not only was he wrong about that, but he also wrote that the more one can distance themselves from culture the better it is for the spirit. But MO, instead, makes it a mitzva of engaging with secular culture. He also admitted that he was changing from his Brisker mesorah, and knew that everyone who mattered disagreed with him. Or do you deny this, too? This has all been discussed before.

    As for my example earlier, please explain to me why a YU student would write a review of a bar/pub in YUs Commentator magazine and also use relatively crude lishonos in that review. Why would anyone bother to even review it if nobody went and if it were correctly viewed as assur as it is?

    I have also, in other threads, pointed out other things even from YU’s own blog.

    I have heard that Rabbi Herschel Schachter explained about how fighting in the IDF is *doche pikuach nefesh* as follows: “lichaora” (he did say liChaora, at least), since the State of Israel is a source of national pride, losing the state would be a fatal blow to the spirit of the nation and therefore the loss of life of a soldier in the IDF, CH”V, could be compared to an amputation of a limb needed to save the life of a person.

    Remember, this is not pikuach nefesh of the soldier versus potential pikuach nefesh of other Jews, CH”V. This is pikuach nefesh of a soldier versus national pride in the State of Israel to the point that the state is considered the body of Klal Yisrael and its Jews are considered mere appendages.

    Please try to tell me he never said that and please explain what he said. Because that is MO and Zionism simply superseding Judaism, never mind the other problems of Zionism.

    #983442

    rebdoniel
    Member

    What we perceive of as left vs. right seems to be rooted in hashkafic differences and different views of how mekorot are to be applied in the 21st century.

    One cannot draw lines in the sand so easily, however. My reading of sources, and my choice of rabbis lead me to positions which differ along left-right lines. Nobody is left-right all the time. Example- Rav Benzion Uziel, zt”l, was someone who paskened very courageously on issues such as conversion, agunot, women’s place in society, abortion, etc. Yet he didn’t believe modern scientific knowledge was of much importance and he seriously believed that talmudic accounts of parthenogenesis should be taken seriously.

    Likewise, I know a rabbi who for many years was the rav of a traditional/conservadoxish shul, yet he refused to carry in his town’s eruv, because this rabbi is someone who is a Rambamist/legal positivist and not a legal realist. Plenty of people in all sorts of old world levush, on the contrary, will carry in eruvin with very scant halakhic basis.

    Rav Yitzchak Abadi has stances on kashrut that most MO people wouldn’t hold by, yet he is extremely black hat and says that shaking a woman’s hand under any circumstance is yehareg ve al ya’avor.

    I think such matters should be looked at on a one-by-one basis. It’s unfair to make blanket generalizations about people.

    I will say, however, that MO tends to be more of a sociological categorization, in the sense that people will assume someone’s MO status based on appearances, or even laziness in observance, such as not saying asher yatzar after using the restroom. I think many MO people view halakha and observance in terms of minimalist floors, rather than maximalist ceilings; i.e. they believe that keeping shabbat, eating kosher, going to shul once a week, and keeping taharat hamishpacha are sufficient to live Jewishly.

    #983443

    truthsharer
    Member

    HaKatan, what do you think a lounge is if not a fancy bar/pub?

    #983444

    truthsharer
    Member

    My LOR gave a shiur on Zionism, and the first thing he said was that it’s not black and white. It’s not evil apikorsus and it’s not the only mitzvah to perform, and like many things in Judaism, it’s a middle ground.

    You, who are a zealot can’t see that. You need extremes in your life so for you it’s black and white.

    #983445

    truthsharer
    Member

    HaKatan, why do you allow people to ask their LOR about a sukkah on SA but not on Zionism? Why do we have to follow the SR on Zionism, but not for sukkah on SA?

    #983446

    Robertz
    Member

    Have you ever wondered why there are so many “right wing ” blogs and websites? Have you ever logged onto a MO website or blog? There aren’t any because we don’t really care!

    #983447

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaKatan: Once again, you have refused to give a single example of where someone said being “Modern” trumps Halachah.

    Someone might review a bar because he went there and wanted to review it. It’s as simple as that. What, because one YU guy went to a bar that means that all of “Modern Orthodoxy” is Apikorsus and puts “modernity” before Torah. I’m sure I could find you a guy from the Mir or Ponovezh who goes to bars. Does that make them all Apikorsim? The Commentator is not indicative of any “YU Hashkafa”. Not even Kol Hamevaser is.

    And as someone who listened to thousands of Shiurim by R’ Schachter online, I can say that I highly, highly doubt that your story is true in the slightest. It never happened. It’s not something he would say or hold. He could hold that morale in the army carries a Din of Pikuach Nefesh because if soldiers have low morale, they’re more likely to be killed. Then again, he wouldn’t say that keeping morale up is Doche Issurim unless that was Mamash the only way to keep said morale up (I know this for sure; I have asked a similar Shailah to him in the past and he was only Meikil if it was literally the only way). But I find it impossible to believe that he said the story as you told it.

    #983448

    truthsharer
    Member

    Of course you can find Mir bachurim in bars. Go to the Marriott or the River thingy by the Brooklyn Bridge (which is worse because it’s also a restaurant).

    #983449

    writersoul
    Member

    I spent Rosh Hashana at a very modern YI shul where women did not dress in keeping with this site’s ideal of tznius by a long shot and they said a mi shebeirach for chayalei Tzahal (with names added of the children of congregants in the army).

    I spent Yom Kippur at an extremely yeshivish shul where I felt like the most modern person there and Neturei Karta pamphlets have been known to have been seeded.

    Both davenings were beautiful.

    As someone mentioned above, it was just the yamim noraim, people. Chillax. Why do we need to take sides, anyway? I personally don’t- it’s confusing and limiting (I have friends at both shuls mentioned above).

    #983451

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2 (and truthsharer), I hope you enjoyed your Yom Tov.

    Regarding your question about a hypothetical non-MO Yeshiva student being found in a bar:

    I feel you are being disingenuous here. I have noted that sectarian affiliation does not inoculate one against sinning. But only in a YU publication did someone take the trouble to review, and did the publication’s editors choose to publish, a review of a bar, as well as using lishonos shel pritzus in the course of that review.

    You would not find that review, and with that language, in any publication from a traditionally Orthodox institution such as the ones you mentioned. And if a student from such an institution did transgress and visit such a place, the logical next step would NOT be to trumpet that sin in the institution’s student paper and write a review for it. And the other students would obviously NOT choose to publish it, even if the student were to attempt such a thing. And they would use a lashon naki, not crude secular terminology. As YU says, only here…


    truthsharer, a shidduch date in a fancy hotel lounge is not comparable to hanging out in a bar/pub.

    #983452

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2,

    Regarding your denial of the quoted views of Rabbi Schachter:

    Please see the “Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society” #16. I believe the publication date was 1988.

    I believe the piece is titled “Land for Peace: A Halachic Perspective” and the author is listed as “Schachter, Herschel”. The above is, I believe, from page 79 there.

    So, although you cannot believe Rabbi Schachter said such a thing (and now you can check it out for yourself), do you not agree, regardless, that this view is well outside the bounds of what is allowed by the Torah?

    In case you are still wondering, the following is (a slightly condensed version, to save the Mods some reviewing time, of) Rav Shimon Shwab’s eloquent written response to Rabbi Schachter’s stated views, as found in “Selected Writings” and also in the community’s bulletin not long after the above was published:

    But let us also remember at the same time not to yield even an inch of our emunah peshutah, and not to fall into the trap posed by the easygoing formulas of the new Centrist orientation.

    There must never be any contact with organized heresy, in whatever shape or form. When it comes to Zionism, even the kind that has changed it from realpolitik into a pre-messianic religion, let us be firm and brave and defy all forces which tend to weaken our fundamentalist – yes – loyalty to the unadulterated heritage which we have received from our forbears. But all this without hate, without anger and with great humility.”

    #983453

    HaKatan
    Participant

    truthsharer, your LOR should be able to answer you about Zionism, too, not only about Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres. If he can’t, then you have a problem. I don’t understand your question.

    #983454

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaKatan: What kind of moronic question is that? I am going to say that someone who knows orders of magnitude more Torah than me has an untenable Shittah? That would be like you asking me to agree that R’ Elyashiv has an opinion well outside the bounds allowed by the Torah. It’s ridiculous. It’s an absolute Bizayon to Torah to say such a thing.

    I read the article and, by the way, I think you’re misreading it slightly. He did not say so about the State of Israel as a Zionist entity. He said it about Jewish control of Eretz Yisrael. Since we are in a constant state of Milchama there, laws of Pikuach Nefesh don’t apply in all situations (like the Minchas Chinuch says). Thus, in order to win the war (by protecting our land), sometimes there are bigger considerations to take into account than individual lives.

    I’m not sure if I agree with that or not. But that’s not relevant. It certainly is a legitimate Shittah. And he is not saying, as you want to imply, that Zionism is more important than Jewish lives.

    #983455

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Robertz: Huh?!?!? The closest thing that there is to a right wing blog is this coffeeroom. There are one or two other sites, but there is no give and take like there is here. On the other hand, The Left Wing/MO is all over the place in the blogosphere. There are literally dozens of such sites and forums!! The anti right wing venom on those on a daily basis is orders of magnitude greater than anything the Mods here will let slip through.

    #983456

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2:

    So your opinion went from certainly “not something he would say or hold” to how could I say it’s wrong because he’s so much greater in Torah than I?

    Even a gadol cannot say something that is clearly kineged the Torah and expect the hamon am to accept that simply because he said so. “Asher nasi yecheta” is also a possibility. How much more so when a gadol comes out and publicly condemns that shita.

    So I disagree that my question was “moronic” and “ridiculous”, though I do otherwise understand your perspective since Rabbi Schachter’s your R”Y.

    While you may feel I’ve misread Rabbi Schachter’s words, I’m sure you don’t feel, lihavdil (between myself and Rav Schwab), that Rav Schwab misread it, especially given Rav Schwab’s public reaction to it.

    Surely, if Rabbi Schachter’s quoted shita were within normative halacha then Rav Schwab would not have written about them the things that he did.

    You also haven’t answered regarding the Commentator review/bars. In fact, it didn’t even faze you that someone would do such a thing and also write a review about it and that the Commentator would choose to publish such a review with the language it used.

    I respect your erudition and Torah, as I have mentioned, but the points remain about MO. In the case of Rabbi Schachter’s Zionist shita above, you’re arguing with Rav Schwab who left no room for any such opinion.

    #983457

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaKatan: I did answer your point about the Commentator. The Commentator in no way represents YU or the opinions of the majority of people who go there. It represents the opinions of the writers and the editors. That’s it. They are almost always among the most liberal on campus and just barely fall into the spectrum of Orthodoxy, if they even do. They do not represent YU and they certainly don’t represent Modern Orthodoxy.

    #983458

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2:

    This does explain what I read, but since what you describe sounds like a Chilul Hashem that no Orthodox institution would allow, how can YU allow the Commentator to be “the official newspaper of Yeshiva College” and to carry its (YU’s) name?

    #983459

    Sam2
    Participant

    When the Commentator does happen to publish things that are very beyond the pale, enough of a stink is made that articles or issues get retracted. But mostly, no one cares. The only people who see the Commentator as a travesty are those who see YU as a travesty to begin with and are just looking for self-confirming examples. Some people like reading some of the stuff and most people don’t care. I didn’t hear anything about that particular issue, but I can imagine that most of the more right-wing (and even centrist) guys were probably offended by a review of a bar being in there, unless it was a high-class establishment.

    #983460

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2:

    It’s nice that you claim that virtually nobody cares about the Commentator, but, even if it is true that this publication does not broadly reflect on YU students and MO adherents, the fact remains that no Orthodox institution should allow anything to carry its name given these circumstances.

    To illustrate, if any traditionally Orthodox Yeshiva students at a typical traditional orthodox Yeshiva were to pull something like that, especially more than once, one can be sure that the hanhala of that Yeshiva would not tolerate this and there would likely be stiff consequences for the offending student(s), in addition to disallowing such activities to continue with the school’s name attached, like what happened (to the Beacon) after the Beacon scandal and YU.

    With the Beacon scandal, on the other hand, the dissociation was fairly quick in coming. So this leads one to believe that although this incident of shameful recounting of giluy arayos is a reason to deny usage of YU’s name, on the other hand, lesser shades of the same and other aveiros, are not reasons to deny usage of YU’s name.

    Yet you are unfazed, again, that an institution that names itself “Yeshiva” University (no, I am not disputing the Torah studied there) and whose slogan carries the word “Torah” in it, can simply look the other way while this publication (Commentator) still proudly carries its name. Not only is that the case, but you aren’t even fazed by it since “mostly, no one cares [about the Commentator]”.

    #983461

    charliehall
    Participant

    “The greatest Torah giants (the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, Rav Aharon Kotler, the Satmar Rov and many others, in no particular order) spoke against Zionism”

    Rav Reines, Rav Kook, Rav Herzog, Rav Uziel, Rav Soloveitchik, Rav Eliyahu, Rav Shapira, Rav Amital, and Rav Ovadia Yosef all z’tz’l along with Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Aviner, and Rav Schachter were as Zionists. Any list of “The greatest Torah giants” must include at least some of them.

    #983462

    charliehall
    Participant

    “I think many MO people view halakha and observance in terms of minimalist floors, rather than maximalist ceilings; i.e. they believe that keeping shabbat, eating kosher, going to shul once a week, and keeping taharat hamishpacha are sufficient to live Jewishly.”

    There are such people. And I think they are wrong. And I self-identify as MO.

    #983463

    charliehall
    Participant

    FWIW, Jews for most of our history studied secular subjects. Numerous gedolim went to university, including Rambam and Sforno (yes, “gedol” is inadequate to describe them — they were Rishonim!). Total rejection of secular learning is a 200 year old chiddush. In this area MO is following the traditional view.

    Similarly, kollel for the masses has no precedent. Again, MO whose kollels are limited to the elite learners are the ones following the traditional practice.

    #983464

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Charlie:

    Regarding MO and Kollel:

    No, MO is not following the traditional view in secular studies.

    In fact, it is the traditionally Orthodox Jews who follow the traditional practice. And the Chassidim, too, have a tremendous amount of workers, regardless of what degrees they may or may not have pursued.

    Whatever secular studies were studied historically are not comparable to MO’s elevation of secular studies to “Torah uMaddah”. Traditionally Orthodox Jews, on the other hand, do attend college and obtain various degrees, including advanced degrees. Yet they do so for the proper reason (parnassah) and with the proper balance (Torah is holy and the rest, lihavdil, including Maddah, is merely utilitarian), not via MO’s taking away from the Torah to elevate Maddah.

    Again, MO is not the traditional way, much as they wish they were.

    #983465

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Charlie:

    Regarding Zionism:

    Your latest futile attempt at defending Zionism has already been refuted last time. It is also despicable to accuse the non-Zionists, among those you listed, with such deplorable accusations of being Zionist, CH”V.

    In particular:

    Rav Reines died in 1915, well before political Zionism made so many terrible marks on Eretz Yisrael and Klal Yisrael. Rav Ovadia Yosef was also not a Zionist; read his words on the subject.

    Even Rabbi AY Kook, himself, did not advocate forced conquest of the land as does Zionism. Not to mention the severe condemnations his Zionist shitos received by various gedolim.

    Rabbi JB Soloveichik departed from his mesorah on his own. You really think that makes a compelling case to use him as a “proof” to Zionism?

    Again, as you quoted, “The greatest Torah giants (the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, Rav Aharon Kotler, the Satmar Rav and many others, in no particular order) spoke against Zionism”.

    Interestingly, the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav disagreed only on whether the State’s creation was a “maaseh Satan.” SR held it was, while BR disagreed. But, despite this disagreement, that same BR stated “the State [of Israel] that they have managed to achieve is the Satan’s greatest achievement since the cheit haEigel”. So while BR held it wasn’t a Maaseh Satan, it was still, however, as he, himself, said, the Satan’s greatest achievement since the Eigel.

    The Zionists have no answers.

    #983466

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Zionism shouldn’t even be seen as something which divides us into left vs. right, and I’ll explain why.

    There are a few people out there who are principled Hirschians. Rav Hirsch is inaccurately seen as a pillar of MO, when in fact, Religious Zionism tends to be rooted in the uber-mystical, particularistic views of Rav Kook. Rav Hirsch was not a mystic, and he was a humanist and a universalist who saw the role of Jews as being a people who dwelled among the broader society, incorporating its merits and aesthetics into the ranks of Jewish life (TIDE). Zionism, by definition, is not compatible with Hirschian ideals. Jewish nationalism would raise questions of dual loyalty; Rav Hirsch was very much a patriotic German. He devotes a long section of his book Horeb (pp. 460-461) to the obligation of Jews to seek the welfare of their government (Yirmiyahu 29:7). If this applied under the Babylonians, who exiled the Jews by force, all the more so in our current countries of residence, in which we settled by choice. If this applied in Babylonia, where Jews were sent for a pre-specified period of 70 years, all the more so today, when the length of our exile has not been revealed to us. For hundreds of years, Jews have honored and loved the rulers of the countries in which they took refuge, and followed all their laws faithfully.

    The Torah united all the individual Jews and made them a nation, and therefore even after they were distanced from their land and deprived of sovereignty, they are a nation, not primarily because of their past, nor because of their future, when they hope Hashem will return them to their land, but because they are the bearers of an eternal tradition, a people that fulfills its covenant with Hashem. It was thanks to this identity that they have been able to maintain their existence despite the destruction of their land and sovereignty.

    When we mourn the destruction of the Holy Land, Jerusalem and the Temple, we are not mourning any physical weakness that led to our defeat, but rather we affirm that the destruction was a punishment for our sins, and it is over those sins that we cry. Whatever tragedies befell us, we accept lovingly, knowing that they are the chastisements of a loving Father to induce us to improve our ways.

    But this Torah commands us that as long as Hashem does not call us back to the land He set aside for us, we have to remain living in the countries Hashem has chosen for us, have a love and loyalty to those countries, and dedicate all our powers and money to the welfare of those countries.

    The Torah obliges us, further, to allow our longing for the far-off land to express itself only in mourning, in wishing and hoping; and only through the honest fulfillment of all Jewish duties to await the realization of this hope. But it forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land by any but spiritual means.

    In 1864, Rav Hirsch wrote to Rabbi Tzvi Hirsch Kalischer, founder of Chovevei Tzion: “My mind is too small to recognize the good and truth that will result, according to you, from your efforts in colonizing Eretz Yisroel. What you consider a mitzvah and a great obligation, does not seem so in my humble opinion. I have no knowledge of secret matters, and I see nothing better than to continue on the road paved by our fathers and predecessors, who made it their goal only to improve our Torah observance, and to look forward to the redemption, which might come any day, if we only listen to G-d’s voice. They never approached redemption through the improvement of the Holy Land, only through the improvement of our hearts and deeds.” (Shemesh Marpei, p. 211)

    Likewise, many people who are perceived as on the left end of things are Maimonideans, whose view of Eretz Yisroel is very much in line with that of Rav Hirsch. Rambam believed that the land of Israel has little inherent sanctity on its own merits; rather, he says that a person should live outside of Israel if that would more positively influence his spirituality. He also omits yishuv ha’aretz from his taryag.

    I, for one, when saying the prayer for the state of Israel, do not say reshit tzemichat geulateinu. None of us living are prophets and we have no way of knowing that the modern state of Israel is the beginning of our redemption. After 60+ years of violence, immorality, and the other problems that other states deal with, I think my point is especially salient. We’re still a long way’s off from geulah.

    #983467

    HaKatan
    Participant

    rebdoniel:

    Regarding the very end of your post, Hashem could bring the geulah today (*despite* the existence of the State of Israel). So I think your last sentence should have been written differently.

    #983468

    HaKatan: if you cannot respect MO rabbanim like Rav Schachter, how can you have the temerity to think they will respect you? It doesn’t matter if you think you are right- rebbeim like the ones Charliehall cited are huge talmidei chachomim. The idea that you would accuse these scholars of avodeh zaroh, and link them to a shmutzy article about bars is shameful.

    And regarding zionism, its funny you say that Hashem could bring geulah without the State. Don’t you see how much easier it is for mashiach to come when Jews are free and safe from the churbanos of Europe?

    To summarize: the treife State supports and hosts an unprecedented amount of Talmud Torah in a safe and holy environment. There are no Cossacks. Pogroms, or inquisitions. You can eat kosher easily, learn lots of Torah, spend 2 years helping other Jews expand the borders of eretz yisrael, and then learn, learn, learn.

    #983469

    SanityIsOverrated
    Participant

    One of the greatest strengths of the Jewish people is our diversity. I’ve said it before, and I’ll keep saying it again and again. There are so many different types of Jews, be it Chassidish, MO, Litvish, Sephardi, Black Hat, Lubavitch, Zionist, and multiple others that go by so many names. Each branch interprets the Torah in their own unique way. Each Jew connects with our heritage in his/her own way. Just as we have this positive strength in which we stubbornly cling to our own way, we also have the opposing negative trait. It’s hard for us to even acknowledge the good of our coreligionists. Only our own way will do. We can continue like this for many millennium, and somehow I doubt Moshiach could even announce his presence because there will always be a group of Jews denouncing him.

    We do have another choice. We can stop looking at what other people do. Seriously. No matter where you look, you’re going to find problems. Every group has them. No-one has perfected Judiasm yet. So stop pointing out the bad in others, because it doesn’t help nobody. It just puts them on the defensive, and they will be quick to point out your own defects. Trust me, you have them. So instead, focus on yourself. Let’s all focus on ourselves. What is our community doing today that God wouldn’t approve of? What are our weaknesses? Let’s work on those first. Another community has problems? Let them deal with it. Meanwhile, be nice, be polite, and show them how much you have grown instead of your judgmental outlook.

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