Awkward kashrus situation – advice?

If he thinks you’re being too OCD in your observance of kashrus, refer him to the eleventh perek of Mesillas Yesharim (about five pages in, depending on the print) where he talks about ma’achalos asuros.

For a real-life example of what he’s talking about, remember the Chicago Tylenol Murders, where an estimated 31 million bottles of Tylenol were recalled in response to a total of seven reported deaths.

Popa, would you also understand if I wouldn’t eat your non minei gavli anisakis and chashash pig’s milk yogurt?

Worms In Fish

Cholov Yisroel Greek Yogurt

I would hope so. I would also hope that I wouldn’t consider you an avaryan for doing so, since there are accepted poskim who are mattir.

The only thing you could have done differently is to avoid answering in a Shtickier way. You could laugh as a response, which diffuses tension and sounds like, of course, while hinting that after all you don’t want to get into it.

But like Popa said, talking it out won’t help. It won’t change his mind and it won’t change yours.

Popa, I would feel comfortable in someone’s kitchen if I felt like they were trustworthy, and everything they did was halachically legitimate, even if I disagreed with some things.

So I would probably eat in your house. I would just make sure to ask all the relevant questions. As long as people have healthy attitudes towards others’ standards, there doesn’t have to be awkwardness.

The problem is, some people are not trustworthy, and/or their standards are not halachically legitimate, even if they consider themselves Orthodox.

So to the OP: if you feel this “rabbi” is not trustworthy, and/or his psakim are not halachically legitimate, then you absolutely did the right thing, and should definitely stick to your guns on this.

It was obvious that he caught that I didn’t answer the question, and I feel terrible for my reaction. I know that I should have just lied and said yes and dealt with the consequences whenever they would arise in the future, but I wasn’t thinking on my feet and now I just feel really bad. He had no right to put me on the spot like that, but I still feel bad that he now knows how little I respect his halachic opinions and how little faith I have in his observance of halacha. I don’t know if I should say something in apology, or if I should just let it go, since he’s probably forgotten it at this point. One of the other kids in the room thinks that I should talk out my issues with him, but I don’t think that would be productive at all, since there’s nothing he could say that would make me think he keeps a home up to my standards of kashrus.

I’m sorry you have to deal with this situation. It sounds really challenging, and it’s a credit to you that you can stick to your standards in a less than accommodating environment.

I agree with Popa’s comment.

zahavasdad

However Kavod L’Rav is a Halacha

I’m sure to remember you said that.

Many of the Kashruth Standards are just chumras or just being machmir

You wouldn’t believe it, but some are actual halachos!

And I think you’d agree that not everyone who calls themselves a rabbi deserves the title or the kavod that cones along with it.

Let us assume the OP was talking about a real orthodox Rabbi. She didnt seem to indicate otherwise

Its also not so easy being such a rabbi on a secular college campus especially out of NYC even in the NYC Suburbs

I am just guessing here, but its likely this Rabbis is either A Chabad Rabbi or a Young Israel type. Those are the rabbis most likely found on a Secular College campus.

You are unlikely to find a Lakewood type Rabbi on a College Campus

I wouldn’t even ask him in an emergency.

I don’t know who this particular rabbi is, but I’ve heard of people who call themselves rabbis who are mattir obvious issurim.

One example is toloiom. Some rabbis permit eating salads in a non kosher seting. They probably never learned hilchos toloim, and/ or don’t keep up to date and don’t know that leafy vegetables need checking by a mashgiach.

Another is bishul akum. People aren’t aware that things like pasta and eggs are assur if cooked by a non Jew (eggs are actually mentioned explicitly in Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 113,14) as being subject to bishul akum.

Find some other Rabbi in the community or within the city.

writer.at.heart415

You did nothing wrong. Quite the contrary. The YCT “rabbi” was pressuring you to bend to his standards, and you set clear lines tactfully. May I be so good.

I would like to give you some free advice. I heard that Rav Moshe has a Teshuva where a lady asked about living in a college dorm. He said that she should not live there. CYLOR.

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“Many of the Kashruth Standards are just chumras or just being machmir”

Even if so (and we don’t know the particulars of this case), being that she accepted them upon herself, they become a neder and she is bound to keep them. See Rav Moshe’s Teshuvot on Chalav Yisrael (Yorah Deah, Volume 1, pages 82-89).

Furthermore, he’s a YCT dude and all bets are off. You don’t have to beleive in Torah M’Sinai to be a YCT “rabbi”. So how can you trust them for anything halachic?

matzav(dot)com/belief-in-torah-min-ha-shamayim-damage-control-by-yct-subtly-defending-the-indefensible

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“It is easy to be cavalier about other people when you live in a protected environment.”

I live out of town, was far out, and I have a number of issues that I deal with. The last time I ate out at a friends house, I brought a bag of flour to my hostess on Thursday so that we could have kemach yashan in Challah and in kugels. If you want it bad enough you’ll get it.

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“Actually, the best thing would have been for ‘writer-at heart’ to say yes , so as not to shame the Rabbi and then- when invited- find some excuse why not to go.”

NO. She nipped it in the bud. Otherwise she would have to deal with similar awkward situations many times in the future. Besides which, he was trying to shame her into saying yes and coerce her – maybe not maliciously – but he should be more thoughtful.

I had a friend that learned in YCT over twelve years ago. According to him, one of the purposes of YCT is to make more people like Avi Weiss and spread the gospel. They (including Linzer) used to make fun of other yeshivas. I don’t beleive that they are happy with “live and let live”. They want to push their agenda.

I have a lot of respect for writer.at.heart415 for nicely giving push back. my emphasis, not a mod’s

When Rav Nissan Alpert got his job at the White Shul in Far Rockaway, he was not able to find a place to live in far Rockaway for 3 years.

Because he had no place to stay he was forced to stay and eat at the Baal Habatim in the neighborhood. Sometimes the Baal Habatim were not up to his standards and he still ate there anyway.

As told by Hanoch Teller in a biography of Rav Nissim Alpert

I am not debating this particular circumstance.I am more aimed at other comments. One does need to know when to be Machmir and when to Makil.

DY: You mentioned the Salad. I once had gotten a new job and was forced to go on a busness trip with my new boss on my first day.I assumed (rightly) that he would be taking me out to dinner, Being unfrieldly and not being sociable and not going would not have been a good idea and I didnt know what to do and I asked my Rabbi and specifically said the Salad was OK as long as radishes and onions were not taken because fancy restaurants have seperate salad utencils. I had actually never heard of this before and actually was shocked by the answere.

It’s nice that people want to be dan the rabbi lkaf zechus that it it is difficult to be machmir in a campus setting. Yet it sems the OP has no issue keeping pretty much her regular level of kashrus. She is on the same campus. So that argument holds no water.

Torah613Torah,

Thanks for your comment. You made my day. We all need a lift sometimes 🙂

SaysMe,

On the contrary, most posters felt that the OP acted appropriately to keep to her standards of kashrus.

She did nothing to demean him, and came here because she felt she could have done even more to save face.

I’m not sure against whom you think loshon hora was said, although I certainly think there was tachlis in giving her chizuk in keeping a higher standard under difficult circumstances.

She did nothing to demean him, and came here because she felt she could have done even more to save face.

Yes, that’s how I understood this thread.

If he is a true ‘rabbi’ he will definitely understand and not be offended..

I agree with ‘kollel wife’

ZAHAVAS dad: I’m not sure what Rav u asked but u should certainly not eat salad in a treife restaurant. There is the problem of tolaim in greens and the utensils and knives can not be trusted to have been clean and not touched tarfus.

Did you actually ask anyone. You should never poskin yourself. Not that I should have to defend myself, but I asked an actual orthodox rabbi and not a YCT one either. Just because you dont like a Psak doesnt mean it isnt valid

I also had some pretty frum relatives who had gone on a cruise. And had ordered Kosher Food (You can order Kosher food for cruises at no additional cost – Its airline food) On the same cruise there was a Kosherica cruise (They dont buy the entire cruise just some cabins) and they spoke to the Mashgiach on the cruise and he told them the same thing about the salad.

writer.at.heart415,

It was obvious that he caught that I didn’t answer the question, and I feel terrible for my reaction. I know that I should have just lied and said yes and dealt with the consequences whenever they would arise in the future, but I wasn’t thinking on my feet and now I just feel really bad.

I think your sensitivity to the campus rabbi’s feelings is a wonderful thing. My guess is that he wasn’t particularly offended; after all, his job on the campus is to assist a diverse body of Jewish students, not to get emotional reassurance that every student trusts his kashrus and would eat in his home. You stated clearly that you don’t eat in other people’s homes without knowing their specific standards, and he should respect that, even if he thinks it is strange.

If you are still worried about having caused him offense, and assuming that you are planning to largely forgo eating food cooked at anyone’s homes near campus (but are ok with eating food you know to be kosher in their homes), you can perhaps say something like, “I’m sorry I didn’t answer you before, it was hard at that moment to fully describe how I handle kashrus away from home. I would love to eat at your home, but to avoid offending anyone who may have kashrus standards that I am not comfortable with, I have a policy with everyone who I am not closely familiar with, even those who’s standards I would probably trust, to only eat foods that are brought in from an outside kosher establishment with [insert local hashgacha you trust, if any] and are not reheated (or reheated double wrapped). I really appreciate your invitation, but totally understand if my policy is too much of a challenge on short notice. I can bring something too, if that would be helpful…” That way, you can avoid eating at his home (or perhaps eat something there that you feel comfortable eating) without telling him that you don’t trust his kashrus, and also without fibbing that you trust it, but then have to make excuses every time you get an invitation.

Avram – excellent post. When I worked in a hospital, the mashgiach there told me the salad bar was no problem, but that was specifically because of the way things worked in THAT kitchen. I know someone in treif food service who told me that it will often happen that a waiter/cook will put salad on a plate with food and then remember the costumer ordered fries or chips and will then put the salad back into the bin. He said they will also use the same gloves when plating the sandwiches as the salad (which they do by the gloved handfuls in many places), even though the knives were separate.

First, let me say I don’t think anyone did anything wrong here. I don’t think the OP did anything wrong, but I also don’t understand with the people who are so quick to jump on this Rabbi as someone who probably compromises on basic halacha.

But with that out of the way, there’s something that puzzles me about this whole situation. The OP states that she was having a conversation with this Rabbi about building community with other frum people that live nearby. Was she in this conversation unwillingly? Was this conversation adversarial? I mean, let’s build community with other nearby frum people and I don’t eat in other people’s homes seem like two opposite thoughts. Eating together, sharing a meal together- its one of the basic building blocks of community. Offering someone something to eat- its basic manners. I’m not at all suggesting that anyone compromise their kashrus, but if you start from the premise that you don’t eat in other people’s homes, I mean, the rest of the conversation about building community has got to be pretty short, right?

SaysMe said,

“More importantly, im not quite following why this turned into a bashing thread…”

I feel that I did more basing than anyone else; at lease I posted the longest. My point was not to bash, but to make writer.at.heart415 aware of what she is dealing with and the possible problems that may come up.

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writer.at.heart415,

If you have not already, I would suggest that you take advantage of Sam2’s offer to answer questions. If you have been a frequent reader here, you would know that Sam2 is quite learned and straight in halacha.

We do not provide contact information.

Ok, mods, sorry about that.