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I was wondering what people thought about mature bachurim starting to date earlier at 20 rather than the normal 21-22. Obviously this is only referring to guys who fit all the requirements. If you have a great guy with excellent middos, why should he wait another year or 2 to get married?
This has been discussed in other threads but I for one as a father of a number of boys know that my boys were not mature at 20 to be married.
Sounds like one of the requirements is a lack of means to support a wife and children. But that is probably also true for the 21 and 22-year-olds.
Seems early to me. If I were the girl’s father I would still question the bachur’s maturity, no matter how learned or financially stable he might be.
As I’ve gotten older, I’ve taken a dimmer view of the idea of delaying marriage for any other than a highly compelling reason. In the first place, the mitzvah of p’ru u’r’vu is the first mitzvah in the Torah, which gives it a chashivus unlike any other mitzvah. Delaying any chiuv is a very serious matter and one needs a very good reason to do so, even more so with the Torah’s very first chiuv. Further, in the Mishnah, the age for marriage is 18. Nothing in nature has changed so much since then that it’s no longer applicable. Lastly, in delaying marriages, we run the risk of delaying the growth and responsibility of our children. So, without serious reason, there doesn’t seem to be much good that comes from not getting to the chuppah as quickly as sensibly possible.
Does he have a proper plan and means of support for his future wife and children to take care of? Or is he going to stay in learning for another 5 years?
If all the boxes were checked, then why not? Why are posters stating their personal boxes that might not be checked? If they were, would you approve? I know people who were working for plumbers and electricians at that age. Others who are mature, but wanted to learn for 2-3 years with various means of assistance, including parental.
This is the Gemora – Sotah 44a:
תנו רבנן אשר בנה אשר נטע אשר ארש לימדה תורה דרך ארץ שיבנה אדם בית ויטע כרם ואח”כ ישא אשה ואף שלמה אמר בחכמתו הכן בחוץ מלאכתך ועתדה בשדה לך אחר ובנית ביתך הכן בחוץ מלאכתך זה בית ועתדה בשדה לך זה כרם אחר ובנית ביתך זו אשה
Sounds quite clear that marriage is appropriate when there is readiness. We can divert this thread into a debate about kollel, which is clear violation of this gemora. The legend is that Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L was confronted with this as he was establishing the kollel system in America, and his response was that his project was a הוראת שעה. This was interpreted as his saying that it was necessary to plant Torah in America. One may question whether that הוראת שעה was intended to be extended 70 years later. But let us not digress. Marriage requires readiness, and the date on one’s birth certificate is not the most accurate method to assess that.
” In the first place, the mitzvah of p’ru u’r’vu is the first mitzvah in the Torah, which gives it a chashivus unlike any other mitzvah. Delaying any chiuv is a very serious matter and one needs a very good reason to do so, even more so with the Torah’s very first chiuv. Further, in the Mishnah, the age for marriage is 18. Nothing in nature has changed so much since then that it’s no longer applicable. Lastly, in delaying marriages, we run the risk of delaying the growth and responsibility of our children. ”
100% agree with you
TLIK, About learning in a kolel see a long discusion covering all early views, see Yabia Omer YD (3,17). I don’t know when it was written,but his conclusion is that it is better to sit and learn and be supported. I think he should be assigned a piece to leqrn on his own and be tested on it and then decide.
Chassidish boys often get married at 18. Sometimes even younger. 20 is already almost a late age for a Chasidish boy to get married.
The Chasidish 18-21 year olds aren’t more mature than the Litvish 18-21 years old. And the Chasidim have a lower divorce rate despite getting married younger. Or, more likely, because of it. Once people gets older unmarried they each start getting into more meshugasim that they bring into marriage that a couple that married younger doesn’t have since they grew with each other together.
If one can do it, both can do it.
Sam Klien??
Hashem doesn’t run the world anymore when it comes to boys learning after marriage?? All of a sudden ”where is the plan? ”Legend has it that people without a a grasp of History think R Aaron invented the Kollel system.
He didn’t.
Been around literally since day 1 of Jewish history.
Are you serious? You expect not to make any hishtadlus at all? Why do we all go to work each day? There are numerous gemorahs that discuss the idea of making a plan and getting educated in a trade so that you will have a plan. Why do you go to the store to buy food for shabbos when hashem can make it appear in your house? And regarding dating earlier yes boys shouldn’t either keep getting married later and later in violation of many gemorahs and thus mathematically making it impossible for all girls to find mates and then blame hashem and say that all shidduchim are min hashamyim. Hashems plan is that people will listen and get married when he told them to and thus there will be enough men for all the girls – not that he will have to open miracles.
Reb Eliezer:
Our problem today is a bit different. Today, the parents of the yungerleit that we are proposing to sit in kollel are themselves products of this system. If they have become baalei parnosoh, they have likely not reached the level at which they can do that much to support their sons or sons-in-law.
You suggest testing a yungerman on something in learning to determine if he is fit. You seem to buy into the knowledge aspect of learning. That is certainly an important part of it. Far more important is the hasmodoh, where time is managed in a manner that reflects the dedication to learning Torah, and the implementation of the midos that make it obvious that the yungerman is a talmid chochom. The ability alone of being able to pass a test of data is far too little to make one a candidate to shteig at someone else’s expense, while delaying his own mitzvah to be mefarnes his family.
yitzchokm:
Kollel as a concept existed long ago. It had not been done in America until Rav Aharon Kotler. The institution of kollel in America was initiated by him.
Joseph, you say chassidim have a lower divorce rate. Can you back that with any factual research?
Joseph,
It doesn’t necessarily the marriages are functional. Hamayvin Yavin there are a lot of agunos today.
Theres no one way. How many 20 year olds are financially ready?
If you’re financially ready or have a clear plan and demonstrate responsibility capabilities, then go for it.TLIK, thanks for enlightening me with your well thought out argument and your conditions to join a kolel.
Funnybone: You can find multiple posts in the CR archives that unequivocally assert that Chassidish marriages have ” lower divorce rates”. Unfortunately, most of those are either by Reb Yosef or cite to other posts by Reb Yosef. It never makes clear “lower than what? Lower then Litvish marriages? Lower than all other Yiddeshe marriages? Lower than ALL marriages (including goyim)? Lower than other yidden who married at the same age? Just some minor areas needing clarification. There are relatively few objective demographic studies on the subject that have any degree of statistical rigor. In general, they show that while still very low, the divorce rate in the Chareidi tzibur (both Chassidish and Litvish) is slowly catching up to that of the secular Jewish community. While the divorce rate in the general population in EY has remained steady (approximately13-15 divorces per 1,000 couples between 2005 and 2015) it spiked in the Chareidi community (from approximately 1.5 per 1000 couples to 4.5-5.0). Rates are higher in Chareidi communities that are interspersed within secular communities versus those that are more insular and geographically remote. Again, the results vary widely and there is little agreement that these studies can be extrapolated or have greater credibility than the anecdotal observations posted here in the CR.
funnybone: Ask any mesader gittin.
can learn in kollel while being married
“Delaying any chiuv is a very serious matter and one needs a very good reason to do so, even more so with the Torah’s very first chiuv. Further, in the Mishnah, the age for marriage is 18. ”
I strongly disagree on all three points.
One: The fact that pru u’rvu is the first mitzvah does not lend it any increased importance. I shudder at the implied suggestion that the mitzvot are mentioned in the Torah in order of their importance.
Two: Many mitzvot are delayed and it is not a “very serious matter”. Otherwise, one would marry at the bar-mitzvah. Other examples? Do we require the bar-mitzvah boy to immediately write a Sefer Torah?
Another example: there is no obligation to separate trumot u’ma’asrot immediately after gathering the produce…and many moreThree: If one reads the entire mishnah in Avot, it is obvious that these age-related statements are not iron-clad. I know of no yeshiva that abides by ben chamesh l’mikra etc…, and to think that ‘ben arbaim l’binah’ is an obligation is a good joke. Furthermore, a glance at the poskim reveals that the marriageable age varies from period to period and comes with caveats.
One should get married when he can fulfill the requirements of the kesuvah they read under his nose as he stands in anguish under the chupah.
There is a joke which I heard happened to the Satmar Rov. Rav Yoel ztz’l where he was asked who should get maftir, a choson, or a bar mitzva? He answered, whoever is older.
Basics of the code of Jewish Law.
All Mishnes, Gemoras, and Rishonim are summeriozed in the Bais Yosef ,and then he wrote the Shulchan Aruch.
Shulchan Aruch Even Ezer 1:3 (Sinen Aleph Seif Gimel) Says a per son must get married from 18 to 20.
However if he is a-)Strongly immersed in learning, AND b-) Afraid to get married because he wont have food, AND c-)His Yaitzer is not Misgaber on him. There is no American Bachur that has all of these 3 conditions. No one can have the Chutspe to Pasken against this.
More recently Askonim proved that by boys waiting till 23 they are causing Agunas. By the time 800 boys become 23, 1000 girls became 19. This crime against Bnos Yisroel must be stopped! The Gedoilai Hapoiskim in Erets Yisroel Paskened boys must start earlier because of Lo Samos Al Dam Rayecho. See Shidduchcrisis.com Daas Torah Letter #3
(Mature; Is it only the American Yeshivish Shoitim that are not mature till 23, or is it American Goyishkeit that allows them to decide when to get married whenever they want?.)Age of Litvish Godol at his marriage:
Chazon Ish;27
Brisker Rov : 24
Rav Aharon Kotler: 22
Steipler Gaon: 28
Rav Schach: 26
Rav Moshe Feinstein: 27
Rav Chaim Kaniefsky: 24I think this list quite speaks for itself regarding the obligation to marry at age 18-20
I would like to know what the aforementioned Gedolim say, as to what age a bochur should get married.
Rational all those gedolim were originally from Europe. Why do ppl keep using the word agunos it’s not the right word and hurtful to ppl actually in that parsha.
All of the Gedoilim mentioned did have ALL the 3 reasons to delay. They all were: strongly immersed in learning, lived in poverty, and Ain Yitzroi Misgaber Olov. If a Shidduch that is a good match would have come up earlier they would have listened to it. BTW the last Valoszener Ry, the Netziv got engaged at 13.5, the Chofets Chaim at 18.
Do you think an American boy has all these qualifications???????
The only one thats B"H still around is the Sar Hatorah Reb Chaim Shlite. He was listing from age 18. But a Tzugepaste Shidduch, Like Rav Elyosuvs daughter did not come up until 24.
American Yankee Doodels are no match to these Gedoilim. They have no wright to delay, (and cause Agunas).A few questions for @Libbi:
Why don’t the American Roshei Yeshiva shlita agree with you? They are not telling their Talmidim to marry at 21. Are you including these Rabbonim when you say “American Yankee Doodels” and “American Yeshivish Shotim?”
Why is it so hard for you to accept that American litvish boys are not the same as boys from Europe, EY or Chasisim? For better or for worse, we have different cultural norms. You can argue that we need to change the culture and prep American boys to “be ready” at 21. However, that is not your argument. (No, I am not saying that no 21 year old boys are ready get married, only that the vast majority are not.)
Do you really believe that insulting Americans by using phrases like “American Yankee Doodels,” “single girls are Agunos,” and “American Yeshivish Shotim” is going to help your cause? Do you really think you are going to name call and insult people to the point where they finally give in to you?
Lastly, which “Askonim proved that by boys waiting till 23 they are causing Agunas?” Anyone with minimal critical thinking skills and high school level knowledge of statistics realizes that the numbers your organization put out are juvenile and can not be relied on to make any serious conclusions.
Since the boys aren’t ready (maturity nor means of supporting a family) at 20… or 25…
And their families are going to be supporting them for the foreseeable future anyways, since they are all wards of the state, as it were, and their working parents (or maybe grandparents) are footing all bills and making all important decisions.
We really should be taking a different approach, and marrying them off at 14 or 15. We need to create an army for klal yisroel, let people fulfill the right mitzvos as soon as is practical for them to do so.To BK613 and the four Kashes
1-)The Yankee doodles are the ones that are using the Gedoilai Olom of Europe, and the want to Pasken that age for themselves. The Yankee Doodles cant compare themselves to them.
2-) Different culture: Yes there was once upon a time a different culture. An American Bachur learned and went to college until 23. Today the culture is learning, learning, and learning after the Chasuna. Most even skip High School. So get into the culture of getting married at 21,and learn,learn,learn. Why cause Agunas?
3-)The word Aguna means anchored.The 5th Tosfos in Kedushin 41A names a girl that fears she would stay because of financial reasons an Aguna. Insulting is pretty moderate if you compare it to Tchuvos Reb Akiva Eiger end of #126 that curses those wanting to be Me`Agen your sister, niece, cousin, or a Bas Yisroel.
4-) The numbers are real. Numbers dont Lie!
Stop living in denial!Reb Eliezer: For some reason, I don’t typically associate humor with Satmar. Thanks for breaking a long-held stereotype. .
I’m glad my points were accepted as correct.
One, especially a godol hador, must marry at 18, unless….
He is from Europe
He married later than 18 but said one should not (that one is my favorite)
He was forced to wait for a tzugepaste shidduch. Unlike the Chazon Ish, whose shidduch was highly untzugepaste.
Any more excuses?To Rational Yankee Doodel
You have an opinion on the Holy Chazoin Ish??????????
Are you crazy????????????If a bachur is old enough to get married, he’s old enough to decide to get married.
You claim that the majority of boys aren’t ready at 21. What other halachos in Shulchan Aruch are you willing to give up because the person isn’t ready? In fact, this – getting married before 20 – is the last halacha to be giving up. We are talking about a daily chiyuv d’oraisa (see, Nidchei Yisrael, ch. 25), which carries a chiyuv misa when ignored (see Medrashi Koheles Parasach 3), that is punished by possibly losing the right to get up for techias hameisim. The fact that Gedolim got married later is irrelevant both because they may had tried to get married younger, or because they fit into the Rambam’s hetter of delaying marriage which requires a) that you be a masmid (see, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch), b) that you will be “TAMID” bogged down with earning money to get “FOOD” for your family if you’d get married young (Chochmas Adam), and c) you don’t have hirhurie isha.
You then claim that some Roshei Yeshiva don’t agree with this.If they are Orthodox Roshei Yeshiva, they surely agree with the Shulchan Aruch, unless they never heard of that particular halacha, which is possible since they aren’t poskim. But even if they were Poskim, the halacha says that any Posek who has a personal bias shouldn’t be relied on (Rema Y.D. 242:36). Rav Yudel Shapira, Rosh Kollel Chazon Ish (when Rav Chaim Kanievsky had to write on a hard siman, he’d let Rav Yudel read it to make sure that there are no mistakes), said that Roshei Yeshiva who tell boys to delay are subject to negius (Daas Yehuda, p. 242).
Are you claiming that there is no shidduch crisis? Call shadchaim and ask them if they have a much harder time getting a yes from a boy than from a girl and then respond.
1. You did not explain why the American Roshei Yeshiva dont agree with you. But thank you for clarifying that you do consider them to be American Shotim who are responsible for causing agunos.
2. I’m not sure what your point about learning and college is but it looks like you agreed with me, you need to change the culture so that American boys yeshiva chinuch is complete at age 21. You can’t just say that 21 year old guys are ready to get married.
3. You didn’t answer my question, do you think that you’re going to insult your way into making changes?
4. I don’t doubt that your numbers are real. I’m saying they are too limited and don’t take a bunch of other factors in to consideration. Therefore, your conclusion means nothing.Reb Yidd. An orthodox Yid decides according to Halacha.
A modern orthodox decides to get married whenever he wants. He ignores the Shulchan Aruch ,Even Ezer 1:3, Simen 23, (Tefilas Zakeh,), He ignores Saifer Nidchai Yisroel Simen 25 written by the Chofets Chaim.
Ignores Daas Torah of Gedoilai Haboskim,the Issur of Lo Samod Al Dam Rayecho.
Orthodox Yidden do decide based on all of the above.To BK613 I just noticed Are Roster answered Question # 1 and 2
3-) This is not insulting, it`s meant to prove a point.
4-)Whatever your other reasons are, its just adding salt to the wounds. The wounds are done by the boys and their parents that refuse to listen to Shidduchim younger.A few questions.
If man all his life learning in a kolel and his wife supports the family. When their children will come to the parsha, how many families this wife/mother will able to support? Does anyone believe that one woman can support a few families at the same time – her own family plus her children’s families?“You claim that the majority of boys aren’t ready at 21. What other halachos in Shulchan Aruch are you willing to give up because the person isn’t ready?”
Are you arguing that we should force boys who aren’t ready to get married under the chuppa? I (and I would hope any sane person) would argue no, forcing people to get married when they aren’t ready is a stupid idea. However, if you want to advocate changing the current yeshiva system to one that guys are ready to get married at 21 then by all means go ahead.
“You then claim that some Roshei Yeshiva don’t agree with this.If they are Orthodox Roshei Yeshiva, they surely agree with the Shulchan Aruch,”
I am unaware of a single American Rosh Yeshiva, of any frum litvish yeshivish yeshiva, who encourages his talmidim to date and get married at 21. If you are aware of one who does please share it with the rest of us.
“unless they never heard of that particular halacha, which is possible since they aren’t poskim.”
So you agree with Libbi that all the American Roshei Yeshiva are “American Shotim?” On top of that, they are also too biased to give our children proper hadracha? These are the Gedolim and Rabbonim who the American community rely on to be mchanech and guide our children. If they are all “shotim” and biased we have a bigger problem than the shidduch crisis!
“Are you claiming that there is no shidduch crisis?”
I am claiming that the current shidduch system is heavily stacked in the boys favor, with boys having tens of resumes to choose from while most girls are lucky to have 1 or 2. I have not seen any evidence that it is because of a numbers problem.
“3-) This is not insulting, it`s meant to prove a point.”
OK, I wish you much hatzlacha with your methods of persuasion.
“4-)Whatever your other reasons are, its just adding salt to the wounds. The wounds are done by the boys and their parents that refuse to listen to Shidduchim younger.”
You entire shpiel is based off the “research” and “numbers” you compiled. I am saying that the numbers you have don’t show the whole picture, thus, they are useless and don’t prove anything.
This was interpreted as his saying that it was necessary to plant Torah in America.
You deliberately interpret it in a way to fit your anti kollel (always with a disclaimer not to digress) agenda.
Joseph: an intelligent statement would b that you had spoken to mesader gitten and they said that there is no difference between age when it comes to gitten. Not that anyone would be believe you!
To say make a statement and then say just ask is irresponsible.To BK613 DO NOT MISINTERPRET THE WORDS OF LIBBI!
Libbi does not claim that the RY are Shoitim. They know what they are doing. They cater to their clientele.
We want the boys and their parents to listen to Shidduchim, by age 21, when they finish American Yeshivas. All Bnai Torah, all over the world are in Shidduchim by age 21. Our famous quote “Is it only the American Yeshivish Shoitim that are not mature till 23, or is it American Goyishkeit that allows this?” If some boys think that this insulting, too bad!
When a Bachur is age 20, he is a Bar Onshin. A 23 yr. old Bachur and 3 of his boy friends that did not listen to Shidduchim before age 23, each one will be held collectively responsible, for the single that they caused. It may very well be their own sister, niece, or cousin. STOP CAUSING THE SHIDDUCH CRISIS! Listen to Shidduchim by age 21!“To BK613 DO NOT MISINTERPRET THE WORDS OF LIBBI!
Libbi does not claim that the RY are Shoitim. They know what they are doing. They cater to their clientele.”Ohhh I get it, the American Roshei Yeshiva are just too naive and are controlled by their community to know what the Torah says. But you are all knowing and everyone should listen to the wisdom that flows from your mouth. I’m glad we clarified your position on the American Gedloim.
“If some boys think that this insulting, too bad. When a Bachur is age 20, he is a Bar Onshin. A 23 yr. old Bachur and 3 of his boy friends that did not listen to Shidduchim before age 23, each one will be held collectively responsible, for the single that they caused. It may very well be their own sister, niece, or cousin. STOP CAUSING THE SHIDDUCH CRISIS! Listen to Shidduchim by age 21!”
I have no problem with you using childish name calling. All I asked was if you think these outrageous comments will be effective in instituting change? Most adults know that it doesn’t work.
You never answered which “Askonim proved that by boys waiting till 23 they are causing Agunas.” How did they “prove” this? What was their methodology? What (if any) was their training in statistics and data analysis?
<<I am claiming that the current shidduch system is heavily stacked in the boys favor, with boys having tens of resumes to choose from while most girls are lucky to have 1 or 2. I have not seen any evidence that it is because of a numbers problem.>>
bk613, the reason it is heavily stacked in the boys favor is BECAUSE of the age gap. it absolutely is a numbers problem. if the boys dated earlier, this would solve the problem.
Libi: Hashem yarachem on any young man/woman who takes your advice seriously. Get married when YOU feel ready to take on the responsibilities and obligations of being a husband and father as set forth in your ketubah. While listen to the advice of all those you respect, DON”T allow yourself to be bullied by anything you’ve heard or been told by parents, rebbeim, friends, family or most importantly, the marital and family relations experts posting here in the CR.
“bk613, the reason it is heavily stacked in the boys favor is BECAUSE of the age gap. it absolutely is a numbers problem. if the boys dated earlier, this would solve the problem.”
What proof do you have that this is true?
Certainly don’t follow gadolhadorah’s advice; she thinks a bochur shouldn’t be “bullied” by what his parents and rebbeim advise!
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