Backyard minyanim

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  • #1841476
    funnybone
    Participant

    Why are rabbonim banning backyard minyanim if they are outdoors and we keep distance?

    #1841537
    DBMH
    Participant

    I cannot speak for Rabbonim, but I have observed anecdotally that even outdoors, the distance inevitably breaks down, leading to social mingling and kalus rosh. It is the backyard equivalent of talking in shul. Additionally, children in the neighborhood are curious and run out to observe, leading to further person-to-person contact and opportunities to spread infection (chas v’shalom). Matters are made worse because under current conditions, people are starved for social interaction and can easily let down their guard. Regardless, the bottom line is that Rabbonim are against it, medical professionals, health authorities and first responders are against it, and those are all good reasons not to make backyard minyanim.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by DBMH.
    #1841554
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Why can’t the tzibur realize that this is truly a life or death matter, especially for older yidden, and you can daven b’yachid for several weeks until the spread of the virus begins to flatten and wind-down. There seems to be a constant kvetching about ways to work around the rules or by complaining that subways and buses are running so why do shuls have to close. (Most of the hospital workers rely on mass transit to get to and from work).

    #1841688
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    No is not the time to be looking for kulos. Sure some modernish might be maikel and alow for such minyanoim, but now is the time, to be mehader in our avodas Hashem look fo the bigger chumra show Hashem how you take Lo saamed al daam reiecha and venishmarten seriously, and arent trying to look for kulos.

    In this zechus may we all have a yeshua

    #1843042
    thetruthiseek
    Participant

    ubiquitin its a kulah to daven btzibur?! its a ZECHUS not to daven btzibur?! what kind of garbage is that?! you cant pick and choose mitzvos based on a fear caused by a lack of bitachon!

    #1843087
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Thetruthiseek, There is a rule חמירא סכנתא מאיסורא a danger is more stringent than a prohibition. We cannot rely on betachon when it comes to endangering ourselves. ושמרתם מאד לנפשותיכם guard yourself extremely when it comes to protecting your health.

    #1843135
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    At this time it is Daas Torah NOT to have a Backyard Minyan

    #1843092
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    The only way to have a minyan currently is if a family has a minyan on their own. If they all live together anyway, they can daven together.

    #1843108
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    ושמרתם

    V’Nishmartem

    The Wolf

    #1843169
    Mammele
    Participant

    DaMoshe: Not to negate your point, but it’s good to be aware that the current allowances for those living together are because they’re not ready to separate families like they did in China. (Which means separate facilities for those exposed and those with the virus.) This may be one of the reasons the Frum community is being hit harder. Larger families (yes even under one roof) equal more potential for infection.

    I’ve seen video footage of porch Minyanim in condo/developments that seem okay, but I can’t vouch for its safety.

    #1843188
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    The truth.
    ” its a kulah to daven btzibur?!”

    100%
    It is a big kula to take risks wwith people’s lives for a minyan. I am not a posek, so I’m not telling you its assur. but now is the time to be machmir, try to be mehader in your avodas Hashem. The Mitzvas hayom is to protect life. Look for hiddurim in being as safe as you and they can be.

    ” its a ZECHUS not to daven btzibur?!”

    no, its terrible not to daven betzibur. how this comment fit in

    #1843200
    HIE
    Participant

    well guys, my block in flatbush has a minyan daily now which fits with all the guidelines. Although in the beginning I was hesitant to daven there being that all the rabbanim said we should daven beyechidus. But then I realized that this minyan fits the guidelines. Everyone stands on their front porch and together we have around 20-25 people along approx. a third to half the block and we daven beminyan. Shabbos on person davened for the amud all the tefillos because he had a nice loud voice that everyone was able to hear. But now someone got a speaker so it’s easier. Everyone stays by their porch. No mingling. It’s beautiful.

    #1843206
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Thank you for correcting me. ונשמרתם indcating that not only don’t get into danger but don’t get into a situation like going to shul, backyard minyanim, that can turn into danger.

    #1843306
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    HIE – are you sure that this counts as a Minyan, since everyone is in a different Reshus? As I remember the Halacha (and I could be mistaken), you need to have ten men in a single Reshus to have a Minyan. Someone who is not in that Reshus and Davens with them is considered to be Davening b’Tzibur, but can’t count towards the Minyan.

    Here in Israel, the Misrad HaBri’ut is still allowing outdoor Minyanim of ten exactly, provided social distancing is observed. As such, I’ve seen a number of “parking lot Minyanim”, consisting mainly or exclusively of people from that single building. The Rabbanut allows this, but there are many individual Rabbanim who are either forbidding such Minyanim or strongly discouraging them – and each person should follow his Posek, provided they are within the guidelines of the Misrad HaBri’ut.

    an Israeli Yid

    #1843497
    HIE
    Participant

    an israeli yid: There is a din of “roeyin zeh es zeh”. Yes it does work {lefi most shitos} forsure if there are ten people that can see each other. The lashon is “im miktzoson royin zeh es zeh”. I’m not sure if miktzas is enough because there’s only two separate reshuyos in that case so if some from each reshus see some from the other reshus it connects them. But in my case everyone is in a separate domain so maybe everyone has to see everyone to be connected. I have other shaylos in this. This concept of royin is nogaya with davening with a minyan and about zimun by bentching. There is a shita that if there is a derech harabim mafshik, it separates the minyan. But that seems to be a daas yachid. This is all according to my understanding. If you check and see differently let me know the mareh mekomos.
    ten lechacham v’yachkem od.

    #1843673
    Abba_S
    Participant

    If there was a minyan (10 Jewish men) who davened maintaining social distance and then video conference with others the others could answer amen. Source is Shulchan Oruch Orach Chaim 55:20.

    #1843677
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    HIE – I’m not a mumcheh, so I can’t say for certain that “ro’in zeh es zeh” is or is not enough; I just recall that when we had ten people split between two rooms, even when they could see each other, my Rosh Yeshiva would insist that we have a minimum of ten in a single room before he’d allow us to Daven as a Minyan. It could well be that we’re now in a situation where we can be Somech on Shitos that are more Meikil on this – and it could also be that my Rosh Yeshiva was being Machmir on a Shita that is not universally accepted only because it was possible to be Machmir at the time.

    an Israeli Yid

    #1843815
    HIE
    Participant

    correct. It’s definitely better in one room. I believe it’s not agreed by all the poskim. I’m going to be meayin iy’h over Shabbos. But that would explain why your RY didn’t want to use that. But obviously now that’s the only thing we can do.

    #1843922
    flatbusher
    Participant

    If I recall rabbonim have called for NO minyanim anywhere. It seems to create these outdoor minyanim is going against daas Torah unless a rav gives haskamah to it.

    #1843867
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Your Rosh Yeshiva was talking about when part of the minyan is in one room and part is in the other because they are in separate rooms and can’t be combined but once there is 10 men in one area then video conferencing would work. so that you can answer amen. In Israel where backyard minyans are allowed this maybe a solution. If you have a mishnah bruriah look up chapter 55 statement 20 you can see it for yourself.

    #1843955
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    On the YWN news page, there is a newly posted article reporting that Bikur Cholim in Lakewood is BEGGING their tzibur to STOP immediately with ANY minyanim, indoor or outdoors. This mindless obcession with minyanim under the current circumstance is crazy and dangerous These yidden should be reported to the police immediately for endangering public health. There is ZERO concern with mesirah under the conditions of pikuach nefesh. If any of them come down with the virus, they should be put at the end of the line for medical treatment since they deliberately sought to increase their exposure.

    #1844155
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Interesting concept call the cops on someone that is praying. Only problem is that it’s not a crime to pray as long as you maintain social distance which is 6 feet between people. The police will come but if it’s on private property they need a warrant to get in. All you are doing is wasting the Policeman’s time. All you are doing is preying on the praying.
    As far as denial of medical services to people who pray with a minyan we as a society have spent trillions on AIDS and lung cancer which are caused by lifestyle either smoking and or drug abuse. I thought you guys want health care for all.

    #1844254
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    this is the NYS law:
    Houses of worship are not ordered closed however it is strongly recommended no congregate services be held and social distance maintained.

    #1844261
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
    #1844307
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    This is after he hold the yeshiva to stay open even if they were told not to, gabbaim manipulate him

    #1844458
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Reb Chaim is only talking about Israel not the US there is no Health Ministry here just Dept. Of Health. There has been a method of treatment that has been successful. The stay at home is only to reduce the rate of infection so that it doesn’t overwhelm the healthcare system. Once we can cure as many people as are newly infected the epidemic is over. So let’s pray that this method of treatment works even though President Trump will probably claim credit. Who cares as long as we can daven normally.

    #1844507
    HIE
    Participant

    rabboisai, I am not encouraging minyanim. But for those who quote Reb Chaim, you always have to know how it was presented and the type of case that was presented. Someone told me he doesn’t want to participate in my block minyan because R’ Chaim paskened not to. I told him, it’s quite obvious to any person that the rabbanim and Gedolim that have assured minyanim were referring to minyanim in shuls and houses and outdoor minyanim that require congregation albeit six apart, its still congregating and increasing the risk of spreading disease. But in a case that every person sticks to his porch and there is no mingling at all, that obiously wasn’t meant to assur. It’s just that this is very uncommon and can lead to mingling so it’s definitely not being encouraged. But if someone arranged it and there is no mingling just sticking to each ones porch I wouldn’t think that the rabbanim meant that.

    #1844713
    yld
    Participant

    if you still stay in your porch then there is still a higher risk of catching covid 19 as you can sometimes can be nearer than 6 feet.

    #1844907
    HIE
    Participant

    yld: i’m not sure how you can say that if you don’t know the setup of my particular block. On my particular block, no on is closer then 6 feet on their porches. everyone is atleast 10 feet probably mostly much more like 20 to 30 feet.

    #1844894
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
    #1844959
    ari-free
    Participant

    it is not a kula to daven with a minyan. It is outright evil and despicable to do so at this time

    #1844958
    Alles is Kartofol
    Participant

    Test post. I am experiencing a lot of technical difficulties with YWN site. I cannot login successfully/ stay logged-in. My previous post to this thread vanished after submitting.

    #1844956
    Alles is Kartofol
    Participant

    Klal Gadol that far too many overlook:

    Even in an instance where an action or behavior would otherwise be permitted (which is far from clear in this and many other instances), one must always consider the ever-pertinent, ever-critical question of <i>eivah</i>; will the action or behavior-in-question incite, inflame or exacerbate animosity, resentment or hostility toward Jews? (Whether Jews in general, or any subset).

    #1845093
    squeak
    Participant

    This taaveh for minyanim under the circumstances is similar to the yetzer harah to learn on tisha bav.

    #1845119
    Joseph
    Participant

    squeak: While neither is justifiable, the taaveh now is different than the yetzer horah to learn on T”B. In the latter case we’re all trained and acquainted with the halacha; in the present (thankfully) unusual circumstances, we are much less (if at all) acquainted on the proper way to react and change to an (for us) unprecedented halachic course.

    #1845190
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    This is an aveira lishmo by not davening in a minyan now we accomplish more then by davening. The Chasam Sofer says the we say מצות לאו להנות ניתנו because if we avoid doing a mitzva because of an issur it causes, we gain the same benefit as doing it. חישב לעשות מצוה ונאנס כאלו עשו one wanting to do a mitzva and hindered is considered like he did it.

    #1845435
    midwesterner
    Participant

    My uncle was at the doctor last week to get a shot. He told him to come back this week for a another shot. He told me he’s the only person in Klal Yisroel who is legally allowed to get Chazaras Hashots!!!

    #1846356
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    Following is from Rav Hershel Schachter, via YUTorah. You can find the whole thing, including the Hebrew with the Ma’areh Mekomos, if you go to that site and look for “Piskei Corona 14”. I tried copying the Hebrew over, but the formatting got messed up, so I only copied the English.

    an Israeli Yid

    Ten men who are standing on different porches cannot be joined together in order to constitute a
    minyan even though they can all see each other. In order to constitute a minyan for Devarim
    She’bekedusah (like Kaddish and Kedushah), the ten men must all be standing in the same room. (It
    should be noted that in smaller spaces, such as a shiva ho
    use, care should be taken to make sure that ten
    men are davening together in the same room. If less than ten are davening in one room and less than ten
    in an adjacent room, even though they can clearly see one another, this would not constitute a minyan.
    In order to create a minyan there must be ten participants davening in the same room.)
    It should certainly be discouraged for people to make a minyan outside on the lawn even if they maintain
    the minimum distance recommended by the health department. One should not place himself even
    into a situation of a doubtful sakanah in order to daven with a minyan.

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