January 3, 2012 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #601483
just becuase a guy lets just say is bin around the block does that mean that he has to settle for a girl who has also found herself int the ally?
as a guy who once found himself toiled in other things besides learning am i wrong for not wanting a girl who also hung around the crowds i once did or since im so called damaged goods i must do the so called settling???January 4, 2012 12:16 am at 12:16 am #842636real-briskerMember
am ot o ure wat ure tawken bout.January 4, 2012 12:30 am at 12:30 am #842637computer777Member
sounds like “jewish guy9”. No doubt lives in Australia.January 4, 2012 1:05 am at 1:05 am #842638
Are you asking if someone who hasn’t presented with the same past “weaknesses” could be a match for you?
There are plenty of great girls around who would gladly take a boy who is very sincere about his path, as long as he shows his sincerity through time and effort. If you’ve decided to change your ways only one month ago, that may not be enough time to instill confidence in someone. Also, besides your verbal commitment to living more carefully, what efforts have you made to ensure your commitment? Do you have a rav or a role model? these are things you need to come with to show you’re a “different” person.January 4, 2012 1:10 am at 1:10 am #842639☕️coffee addictParticipant
Computer777 sounds like he “knows” bothJanuary 4, 2012 1:14 am at 1:14 am #842640
wat i ment was that even though iv changed alot of people dont listen to a shidduch once they hear drugs or girlsJanuary 4, 2012 2:14 am at 2:14 am #842641
They’re afraid that whatever brought you to that place before will bring you to that place again (let alone the health risks you exposed yourself to that you’re now asking your future wife to expose herself to (or so they think, presumably).
There are those who will hold it against you, and those that won’t.
Any time a person declares a holier lifestyle, there are those who will not accept them because of their history. It’s part of life. MO know this when they date yeshivish. Baalei teshuva know this when they date FFB’s. Maybe your situation is to a more extreme degree, but it’s the same idea. You have to accept and deal with the given, and work on yourself to believe that H’ knew the path you’d take and prepared a shidduch for you.
Frankly, you might want to open your mind and heart to someone like yourself, regardless. Just like you wouldn’t want someone to hold it against you, why would you hold it against them?January 4, 2012 3:08 am at 3:08 am #842642☕️coffee addictParticipant
Welcome to life, you ruined it for yourself I hope others learn that lessonJanuary 4, 2012 3:39 am at 3:39 am #842643oomisParticipant
I don’t think that someone who is a baal teshuvah for things that led him around the block, automatically is only “worthy” of marrying a girl who has herself been around that same block. Neither do I think that SHE does not deserve to make her fresh start with a boy who has always done the right thing. We all make mistakes in life, some more costly and more serious than others. But getting back on the right path and STAYING there, makes one worthy in Hashem’s eyes, so why not in your own? Don’t dismiss someone just because you want someone pristine. What if every girl looked at you the same way?January 4, 2012 3:55 am at 3:55 am #842644MiddlePathParticipant
moredDow, why do you consider that “settling”? I’d think it would be better to marry someone that has also been through a lot and then straightened out, because she would probably understand you more and appreciate everything about you more than someone who has never been “around the block”. There are exceptions, but logically, someone that has been through similar things to yourself would generally be more understanding of what you’ve been through, and therefore, would possibly make for a better spouse than someone who is unfamiliar with things you’ve overcome. So, that’s not settling; That’s getting what may be best for you.January 4, 2012 9:17 am at 9:17 am #842645matsav20Member
i’m agree with middlePath
someone that has been through similar things to yourself would generally be more understanding of what you’ve been throughJanuary 4, 2012 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #842646
Marrying someone with a similar background makes for better understanding and an easier adjustment.
A person who’s looking to marry someone who lived a more restrictive or pristine lifestyle should expect that they’re likely to experience more resistance in the shidduch market.
Marrying someone from a more sheltered background happens all the time. I think the issue is that you need to be prepared for some rejections and understand why they are coming (and you can choose to ignore them and keep on moving forward). When it comes to shidduchim, people are very wary, and if they have a choice to be meshadech their daughter with someone who’s never veered off the path, you might have a harder time getting in through the front door.
That’s why connections are very important. People who are respected in the community will recommend you, and the respect and trust that they earned will translate into greater trust in you and giving you a chance.
Can I ask you a question, though?
Why would you reject anyone who had the same background?January 4, 2012 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #842647mytakeMember
I am sorry that there’s no way out of this for you, but that’s how life works. You take responsiblity for your actions and you deal with the consequences. I consider myself as someone who is not judgemental and I still would have a problem dating a guy like you.
I can appreciate the fact that you’ve changed, but I’m sure you can understand why a girl would have a big problem when she hears drugs and girls.January 4, 2012 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #842648
I normally rush to the defense of people who are ready to start fresh. And while I don’t know the particulars of this specific case, I’ll still give the benefot of the doubt and say that this person is truly sorry for what had been done in the past, and does deserve to be treated as a “new” person.
That said (and meant) the next comment is directed at Oomis’s post. While a “baal teshuva” is to be viewed as an equal, in many cases, bochurim from the “brand name” yeshivos will take walk on the wild side with the attitude, I can always come clean, and no one will be the wiser (or so they convince themselves).
Saddest part of all? The person they are hurting most is themselves, That, and the fact that the very girls with whom they had spent time with as a teen, would be rejected outright if the girl had the same “teshuva” stirrings as a young adult.
So while everyone deserves a 2nd chance, it really bears looking at the whole picture to know if the guitly party might really be guilty.January 4, 2012 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #842649BTGuyParticipant
You have a right to want what you want and I hope things go in the way you like.
I dont know you, but since you say you have been around the block, I guess you have not gone further. So, you have no other option because a girl who has been around the block also does not like to go further so how can you two meet, unless you two live on the same street?
All seriousness aside, if those days are just a memory and you are no longer holding to hanging out like that, I have heard enough shiurim to know it is as if you hit the “delete” button on a computer, and you dont even have to think about those days or talk about them, because Hashem doesnt.
On a final note, sometimes learning a lesson the hard way is a very strong character builder, so please dont assume a girl who you feel may have also been around the block (if that is true, and to what degree) may not also want to walk the straight and narrow now.
Hatzlacha!January 4, 2012 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #842650
moredDow, I have worked diligently with at-risk kids in the past and I believe there is no such thing as “bad” kids just kids with bad problems that cause them to go down very destructive paths. I have seen most of the kids I have worked with turn their lives around, both boys and girls.
Having said that I am very upset that you would consider marrying a girl who turned her world around “settling” and yet you are upset if candidates turn you down because they don’t consider YOU on their level. That is quite hypocritical on your part, wouldn’t you say? I agree that girls who have gone through what you did would understand you and appreciate your strength and emunah the best, but that is not what is bothering me about your question. Why do you consider girls who have gone down your path and had the same courage to turn their lives around on a lower madreigah than you are.
I agree with BPT since it is boys such as yourself that helped to drag the girls down to that madreigah. Honestly take a good look at yourself and ask yourself this question “what do you and boys like you owe these amazing young ladies who pulled themselves out of the same black hole you did?” Had you NOT been so “accommodating or encouraging” to them when you were at your low point, you might not be looking down on them as you are right now. So what right do you really have to judge them now or consider them “less desirable” today than they were then?
Although I commend you and respect you for where you are today, please don’t put the girls down and don’t overlook them. Just like any other B’aal Teshuva searches for their Bashert in the Baalas Teshuva pool, don’t think that you should not be fishing in those waters.January 4, 2012 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #842651
first of all i would like to thank everyone for ur advice and support most of the point that u guys brought up i never thought of i guess i always had this idea that guys are ment to go off and tht its not so bad and girls tht go off are ruined for life(dont worry now i know this is a very dumb way of thinkin wats the diff we all got tavois right) anyway ur all right i need to find someone who understands wat it like and know wast a struggle life is not some goody good straight a except for tht one b in math dont worry we all now it wasnt ur fault just the teacher didnt like u. but on a more seriuos note thanks again u guys are the bestJanuary 5, 2012 2:26 am at 2:26 am #842652anonomousParticipant
no do NOT think of yourself as damaged goods if u r back on track it shudnt matter where uve been. wow our dating sytem is really nuts these daysJanuary 5, 2012 6:47 am at 6:47 am #842653estrapadeMemberJanuary 5, 2012 10:32 am at 10:32 am #842654Disrael613Member
Okay, as someone who did not have the usual background growing up, and as a person who is in dating now. I want to say this there are girls out there who did not mess around or were OTD that are looking for guys like you who have gone through life thinking about life, whether to be religious or not. At the same time everyone has point you cannot look down at girls who have past, especially when you have one. The main thing is to make sure that you and the girl are both on the derech now, and not off or in danger of going off. I personally feel that the people who made an active choice to be religious whether they went off or are completely baal teshuvah are some of the most amazing people out there because they actually thought about what it means to be a religious jew.January 5, 2012 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #842655
We have all learnt that the world is a dangerous place, and that does not exclude the frum world towards our own children. We have all discussed the many why’s kids go OTD and the many issues that trouble kids today. Most of us if not all of us understand the depths of the dark paths that OTD kids plunge into and sadly even the very youngest of ages that unfortunately are also effected.
The miracles are and continue to be just how many B”H, come back and get their life back on track. Each one of you who found your yeshuas, and found someone you could trust and believe in to show you the truth, and help you reconnect with your faith and emunah in the one and only truth, Hashem, are amazing and strong young people because it took tremendous courage and hard work to overcome what you have gone through and do your best to put it behind you. No one goes OTD overnight, and no ones comes back overnight. It is a process and a work in progress and comes with its own baggage both ways. Those who have no experience will never fully understand or appreciate the strength and courage involved in the process. Nor would they understand the fear in losing one’s emunah and bitachon to begin with, one who does not understand believes that for the OTD community it is as simple to throw away one’s faith as it is to throw out the trash. They believe it is as simple as making a choice to either stay or leave. They don’t understand that it is a step by step process, with each blow, with each hurt and pain another layer is peeled away and shed. And it is the same when one comes back. One takes on another mitzvah, and one takes another step up the ladder towards true faith, Torah and mitzvos.
No one knows why each of us go through the nisyonos that we do. We are each sent along on our own journeys and we are each tested with our on trials and tribulations. Only Hashem knows why he does what he does. How we handle the test, how we manage the challenge is what makes us each who we are, the very unique person that we turn out to be.
When one looks for their zivug one should always keep in mind that Hashem is the one who chose our zivug for us. We should never look for someone that we think the community would want us to marry, or someone that fits in with the norm of where we live or what is expected of us. We should always thing of “Who am I? Who have I become and where am I heading? What kind of a spouse would support me in my values, in my goals and in my hopes and dreams?” What kind of spouse would support who you are. What kind of spouse would appreciate your strengths and help strengthen your weaknesses. What kind of spouse will complete you and make you whole.
Are you really looking for the cookie cutter mold? Are you really looking for the type that was just spit off the conveyor belt? Do you really need the size 2 anorexic who has been starving herself for dating, straightened her hair at the beauty parlor with chemicals and went to get her colors analyzed? Or are you really looking for a great mother for your children and a supportive wife for yourself even if you can see her sideways and she doesn’t have the face of a model? Does it really matter if she was a typical Bais Yaakov girl or she once carried the same baggage as you did? Or for that matter if she understands and appreciates you the most, does it even matter if she grew up in Malibu and she is an amazing Baalas Teshuva who will be the best mashgiach in your kitchen and the best mommy morah for your kids? Which one do you think Hashem has chosen for you?
You can open yourself up to all the possibilities and make the shidduch process less compelling, or you can bottleneck yourself into one close minded choice and join the many in the dating game. The choice is totally up to you.
moredDow, you have opened your eyes due to the advice that others have shared with you here. Now it is up to others to be as intelligent and open minded as you are. Hatzlocha rabbah and may you find the right one at the right time!January 5, 2012 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #842656ayshosheeParticipant
u should never just “settle” in my opinion that does not set for a very good relationship as long as uve become a better person done teshuva then im positive there r tons of girls who wouldnt have any issue with going out with a guy who made a mistake were all human and make different mistakesJanuary 6, 2012 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #842657realist4uMember
mommamia22 sounds like she knows what she is talking about and I would take her up, pretty much word for word.January 8, 2012 12:33 am at 12:33 am #842658oomisParticipant
“That said (and meant) the next comment is directed at Oomis’s post. While a “baal teshuva” is to be viewed as an equal, in many cases, bochurim from the “brand name” yeshivos will take walk on the wild side with the attitude, I can always come clean, and no one will be the wiser (or so they convince themselves).”
BPT, I honestly am not sure what point you were trying to make vis a vis my comment. Could you elaborate? Were you agreeing with me, disagreeing with me, or expanding upon what I said? I am apparently having a senior moment, and not chaaping.January 9, 2012 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #842659
No, it was not a senior moment; I just wrote a sloppy post. I’ll rethink it and repost later in the day.
But for the record, I am drawing a BIG distiction between the baal teshuva you (and I, and most posters) typically think of, as opposed to the one presented in the OP in this thread.
Later – BPJanuary 9, 2012 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #842660
As always Hashem makes the shidduchim. Boxing yourself into what you think you deserve is being a baal gaivah. Understanding what you need is a whole different ball game.January 9, 2012 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #842661BTGuyParticipant
Whoa, whoa, whoa, there!
If I read you correct, you said it was “boys like you who helped drag girls down to that madreaigah”.
Stop the presses, pull over, call out the National Guard…
This topic is not specific to either of the genders.
Suffice it to say, do not think for a second there are not girls out there that can run circles around the guys with things that are not “kosher” out there on the street.
Being a bt guy, I incorrectly assumed that everyone was as pure as the driven snow. Sadly…very sadly..frum young ladies also want to play the tshuva card or the card that their avairos are erased on their wedding night, and do things we would never expect.
While such things are rarer than in the nonfrum world, they are going on now, as you read this.
’nuff said.January 9, 2012 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #842662
btguy wat is it ur sayin tht not everyone is wat they say they are?January 10, 2012 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #842664photogenicMember
Just my 2 cents…
I grew up in a pretty right wing family, however the schools I went to was not my style of learning. While it worked for others, it just wasnt for me. As well, as the fact that I was constantly questioning and did not feel I had any sort of stable base in Judiasm. So I pretty much rebelled, in my way and while not doing anything drastic, I did not completely believe in G-D, and did not keep most Halacha.
It was only when I met people who were so passionate about Judaism and Mitzvot and Hashem that I felt I found what I was looking for. It wasnt dry, by rote or cookie cutter type. It was something much deeper, and always being a spiritual person, I was attracted to it. So I came back to Judaism, in more of a Baal Teshuva manner (which btw, I dont go for the term “FFB”. We all are Baal Teshuvas in some ways.)I was involved in a Kiruv organization and was so impressed at how people becoming Frum were Excited about learning and growing and taking on more Mitzvot! And I came back to Judasim in that way myself.
So I am in the dating period and, while I am open to anyone, I do personally connect to boys who did not have a religious background and became frum as well as boys who became more Frum at some point in their lives-whether growing up more Modern, or growing up in my kind of background, with my experiences. I find that when one comes to it by themselves and creates their own unique path in life– and wants to grow with a passion, it feels more meaningful to me.January 10, 2012 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #842665January 11, 2012 5:30 am at 5:30 am #842666January 11, 2012 5:42 am at 5:42 am #842667
bpt, the point that you are missing is that kids that go OTD have no intention at the time of ever returning. They don’t see past their pain in the present. They are NOT thinking about tomorrow let alone a week, a month, a year or even 5 years down the line. The pain they carry is real and it effects them greatly. So much so that they are incapable at the time to make appropriate choices for themselves. They are running away not only from religion but from themselves who they know themselves to be. They don’t want to recognize who they were or what they knew.
They are running into the arms of goyim and want to be just like them. They want to feel everything and anything that is opposite to what they knew up until then. They don’t think or can’t possibly fathom that they will heal from what they are feeling and that they will ever be able to forgive or forget. They can’t imagine ever NOT feeling that pain and want to do whatever they can to ease it, numb it, or ignore it. They want to kick that pain, that memory, or that thought in the gut, and they will do anything to feel like they did.January 11, 2012 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #842668
” kids that go OTD “
Your point is well taken, Aries. But again, I want to draw a distiction between the boys motive and that of the girl. True, both are in pain. But the girl says, ” I don’t deserve any better / I’m not worth anything. So my destructive behavior is no big deal.”
The boy is also in pain, bu he says to himself, ” I can get away with this, and I won’t be held accountable for anything I do as a teen / young adult.”
Both had a lapse in judgment. One is filled with regret. The other is filled with rage at the system, for being so exacting. One gets our empathy. But the other only gets our pity.
And as far as not being able to listen to the voice of reason, Rabbi Wallerstein’s shuir that I mentioned was aimed specifically at young adults. He speaks up to them, not down at them.
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