October 22, 2012 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #605387proudjew83Member
Is there a rigmarole against marrying a girl who’s father is not jewish but she is frum?October 22, 2012 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #900579susheeMember
No, she is 100% a kosher Jew.October 22, 2012 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #900580147Participant
Exactly as sushee said, and on her Kesuvo, write in, Bas her maternal grandfather’s Hebrew name.October 22, 2012 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #900581WolfishMusingsParticipant
Do you perhaps mean a prohibition or a concern? Neither of those are a rigmarole.
The WolfOctober 22, 2012 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #900582more_2Member
The gmara says to marry a bas Talmud Chacham. So who should the girls that have fathers that are not Jewish marry?? Good question..October 22, 2012 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #900583KeenObserverMember
noun ?ri-g?-m?-?r?l, ?rig-m?-
: confused or meaningless talk
: a complex and sometimes ritualistic procedureOctober 22, 2012 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #900584akupermaParticipant
There aren’t any halachic issues, but there might be some tricky social problems especially if her parents are dismayed at her becoming frum and would be scandalized by a frum wedding.October 22, 2012 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #900585Sam2Participant
She can’t marry a Kohen, I believe. Other than that, there’s no reason not to marry her. In fact, there’s probably an additional aspect of Chessed involved in marrying her because there are probably some people who will think that something is wrong with her and therefore wouldn’t marry her.October 22, 2012 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #900586zahavasdadParticipant
I heard recently of a story of a Girl whose father was not jewish and after the divorce, the mother married a Chabadnick.
The father who had joint custody would bring his daughter to church on Sunday and there was nothing the mother or step father could doOctober 23, 2012 12:02 am at 12:02 am #900587JaneDoe18Participant
If her father is not Jewish, she cannot marry a Kohen.October 23, 2012 1:24 am at 1:24 am #900588shmendrickMember
Sushee – it is not so poshut! At least, Tosfos disagrees with you!
In the Gemorah in Kiddushin on 75b there is an argument among the Rishonim on this very issue. Some of the Rishonim actually present the opinion that a person is not Jewish if their father is a gentile and their mother is a Jew.
Tosofs says on Kiddushin 75b (DH Virebbe Yishmael):
Why do we need to say that Rebbe Elazar is holding like Rebbe Akiva that a non-Jew or a slave that has relations with a Jewess then the child is a mamzer? [Rebbe Elazar] can hold that in that situation the child is kosher [like Rebbe Yehoshua] and the problem is that we do not want a Jewess marrying a non-Jew. Why do we need the problem to be that we don;t want her to marry a non-Jew AND the child would be a mamzer (Isn’t one problem enough)?
Perhaps we can answer and say that if [Rebbe Elazar] holds the child is kosher then he also has to hold that the child takes the status of the non-Jew, THE FATHER, and this is like that which we said before on 67b, the rules of who the child follows, and we don’t have to worry about a Jewess marrying a non-Jew [because the child is kosher]. Therefore, he holds the child is a mamzer and thereby the child’s status is being determined through the mother and we are also now concerned that the woman should not marry a non-Jew (Basically, you can’t have the problem of the woman marrying the non-Jew without having the problem of the child being a mamzer).
Before we take a step back and realize how amazing this idea is there is some clarification that is needed. Some of you might have noticed that this idea does not make sense. How could the child be KOSHER if he is going after the status of the father, the father is a NON-JEW? That would make the child a non-Jew not someone who is kosher.
The Maharsha commenting on this Tosfos (75b Virebbe Yishmael) answers this question by bringing in a Piskei Tosfos that clarifies Tosfos’ meaning. When Tosfos says that the child is kosher, he means that the child is a kosher non-Jew. If the child wants to convert to Judaism he will not be a mamzer. The Maharsha goes on to explain Tosfos as not holding like this as a second option and leaves Rashi (who says like Tosfos) as a Tzarich Iyun (needs looking into), but Rav Elyashiv in his Ha’aros on 75b tells us that Rashi and Tosfos do, in fact, hold that the child would be a non-Jew (that the child follows the father’s status).
So we see here it was not always so simple to say that if the mother was/is Jewish then the child is a Jew.October 23, 2012 6:46 am at 6:46 am #900589not nogeiah whoMember
shmendrik – chaileich l’oraisa…
not 2 YWN coffeeroomOctober 23, 2012 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #900590oomisParticipant
According to halacha,Shmendrick, your post notwithstanding, the child of a Jewish woman is a Jew, poshut. What you quote is not the accepted p’sak. Perhaps the tosfos refers to a Jewish MARRIED woman who has a baby with a non-Jew. Normally such a relationship with a Jewish man would result in mazeirus for the child born from that union. When a NON-married woman has a baby with ANY man, that child is not a mamzer, is (s)he? Or am I mistaken? (I do want to know, I am not being sarcastic).October 23, 2012 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #900591mrs. KatzMember
Why can’t hse marry a koihen?October 23, 2012 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #900592on the ballParticipant
Child is Kosher but Pagum.October 23, 2012 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #900593yaakov doeParticipant
I know one such couple that’s been married over 35 years, and 2 others recently married. I don’t know how the non Jewish grandfather was explained to the children.October 23, 2012 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #900594WolfishMusingsParticipant
I don’t know how the non Jewish grandfather was explained to the children.
I often find that the truth usually works the best.
I have relatives who are not frum and relatives who are not Jewish. Never once have I lied to my kids about them.
The WolfOctober 23, 2012 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #900595akupermaParticipant
1. The debate over whether a child of a Jewish mother is Jewish, as opposed to requiring both parents to be Jewish, has long been settled.
2. I’m curious for a source for the statement that a a kohen can only marry someone whose mother was married to a Jewish father. As long as the mother is Jewish and not a mamzeris, why should the mother’s status matter?October 23, 2012 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #900596midwesternerParticipant
If she is born from a Jewish mother, there is no prohibition against her marrying a Kohen.
In halacha l’maaseh, we do not pasken that Akum v’eved habah al bas Yisroel havlad mamzer.October 23, 2012 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #900597ThePurpleOneMember
i know someone very well who married a boy whos fathers not jewish…. so im pretty sure its ok halachic wise… mite b diferent tho cuz this boys father x jewsh and this girls father..October 24, 2012 12:48 am at 12:48 am #900598shmendrickMember
oomis1105, do you disagree with Rav Elyashiv in his Ha’aros on 75b tells us that Rashi and Tosfos do, in fact, hold that the child would be a non-Jew (that the child follows the father’s status)? Rashi and Tosfos (according to Rav Elyashav) are serious opinions on such serious issues! This goes to the very heart of Jewish identity, not merely a chumra or relying on a kulah.October 24, 2012 12:55 am at 12:55 am #900599MediumThinkerMember
It’s not a halachik problem, but many yidden customarily try to marry someone with what may be perceived as a finer yichus.October 24, 2012 3:44 am at 3:44 am #900600oomisParticipant
Shmendrick, I do not presume to either agree or disagree with a Gadol. I follow piskei halacha. And I, as most people, have been taught all my life that the religion always follows the mother. If she is a Yid her child is a FULL Yid. Perhaps there is an exception when speaking of someone fathered by one of the nations not allowed to be part of K’hal Yisrael. But I doubt one could easily find an authentic Moabite these days.
I will humbly admit to not understanding all the things you quoted, but I suggest you speak to your Rov and ask point blank if the child of a Jewish woman is Jewish or not.October 24, 2012 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #900601takahmamashParticipant
oomis1105, do you disagree with Rav Elyashiv in his Ha’aros on 75b tells us that Rashi and Tosfos do, in fact, hold that the child would be a non-Jew (that the child follows the father’s status)? Rashi and Tosfos (according to Rav Elyashav) are serious opinions on such serious issues! This goes to the very heart of Jewish identity, not merely a chumra or relying on a kulah.
1. Can you prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that Rav Elyashav actually paskened that a child follows the father’s status? Did he hold this is halacha l’maisah?
2. Can you tell us even one reputable Rav who holds this way today?
If both answers are no, as I strongly suspect, then stop beating a dead horse. It’s a non-issue.October 24, 2012 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #900602Sam2Participant
Akuperma and midwesterner: It’s a Gemara in Yevamos in the 40s or 50s brought down in the Shukchan Aruch (maybe 56b?). Havlad Kasher Aval Pagum Lik’hunah.
Shmecdrik: You missed the point. Yes, major Rishonim hold that. However, the idea has long ago been Paskened and the Shittos nowadays that would even require a Giyur L’chumra to be Yotzei Rashi’s opinion (I think Tosfos has different opinions different places, if I recall correctly, but I’d have to go over them again) are almost nonexistent. Did you know that major Rishonim hold that it is possible to convert away from Judaism (the Me’iri and others quoting Shittas Hag’onim)? It doesn’t matter, because that issue was also resolved long ago and most Poskim wouldn’t even use that Shittah as a Tziruf to be Mattir an Agunah. Sometimes there are major Shittos, but they have been Paskened against so completely that we just aren’t Misyaches to them at all when dealing with Halachah L’ma’aseh.October 24, 2012 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #900603tzaddiqMember
proudjew83 – let’s put the halachic issue aside and look at it ideally.
the fact is that a person doesn’t marry a woman in a vacuum, and the reality is that you marry ‘into a family’. her parents are now your parents (in-laws), with all dinim of kibbud av v’eim, and other halachos that come with it. yes she might be frum and a great girl, etc etc, but the boy also has to now deal with a non-jewish father-in-law which may be a very uncomfortable and sticky situation which one doesn’t necessarly want to put himsef into ??????? (ideally).October 24, 2012 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #900604tzaddiqMember
proudjew83 – let’s put the halachic issue aside and look at it ideally.
the fact is that a person doesn’t marry a woman in a vacuum, and the reality is that you marry ‘into a family’. her parents are now your parents (in-laws), with all dinim of kibbud av v’eim, and other halachos that come with it. yes she might be frum and a great girl, etc etc, but the boy also has to now deal with a non-jewish father-in-law which may be a very uncomfortable and sticky situation which one doesn’t necessarly want to put himsef into ??????? (ideally).October 24, 2012 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #900605golferParticipant
MediumThinker, before everyone starts excoriating you for daring to mention such a non-PC issue as aprreciating yichus in shidduchim, let me add that this dates back to Avraham Avinu sending his eved, Eliezer, to find him a wife for Yitzchak who was not from Bnos C’naan. Eliezer himself was a C’naani with daughters, and may have found this less than comfortable, but Avraham needed a daughter-in-law from a better family. Of course the individual is what matters, and our history is replete with geirim and ba’alei teshuva who were great people and made outstanding contributions to Yiddishkeit; nonetheless there is nothing wrong with factoring in yichus mishpacha when considering a shidduch.October 24, 2012 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #900606tahiniMember
It should be obvious to all as to why in our history it became halachically crucial to rule that a Jewish child is born to a Jewish mother, the mother’s jewishness alone is the concluding factor. End of.
Of course there are complications in marrying a person with a non Jewish parent, those complexities are no doubt best judged on their individual circumstances. To those that wish to bring in different arguments from various Gadolim, do so if you wish to intellectualise the discussion in theory, BUT in practicse halacha is clear and simple on this. Jewish mother = Jewish child, a state of affairs given extra impetus by the Shoah.
Sure there are many who would not want added complications when contemplating marriage partners and also those that seek the value of yichus mispacha, but most important of all is the bond and chemistry between the couple. I have seen marriages arranged by eager parents on the basis of yichus and communal prestige, not always a recipe for married bliss!October 25, 2012 1:41 am at 1:41 am #900607MediumThinkerMember
golfer-I agree wholeheartedly with you, I just tried to walk as tentatively as I can so I wouldn’t get the full blown excoriation. 😉
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