June 2, 2022 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #2093761
@Shlomo 2 have you typed into google the words “Achas Sha’alti (Psalm 27:4) – Sefaria”. The first result that comes up is the Sefaria page that I found. I don’t know why you keep going on how I’m making it up, it’s very clearly on the site.June 2, 2022 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #2093785Shlomo 2Participant
Yes, I also addressed the claim that the gemara TRANSLATION was “skewed.”
I asked for examples (from the TRANSLATION) and did not get any.
Do you have any, perhaps?June 2, 2022 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #2093790AviraDeArahParticipant
Gadol, if we aspire to be like a feminist who denies the torah… that’s not a madrega, that’s the opposite direction. And if that’s who you’re “aspiring” towards… where are you now and where are you headed?
Ish kefi mehalelo…a man according to his praise. From what a person praises, we see what they’re machshiv.June 2, 2022 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #2093795🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“Yes, I also addressed the claim that the gemara TRANSLATION was “skewed.””
Yes. And you also made other comments and I addressed those.June 2, 2022 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #2093794Shlomo 2Participant
Oh, so it wasn’t within the site, by looking at the pasuk’s mefarshim on that site, that you were innocently led (by Sefaria) to a woman singing (“stumbled into”)?
But that GOOGLE showed you a link, not Sefaria?June 2, 2022 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #2093796🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“a man according to his praise. From what a person praises, we see what they’re machshiv.”
Brilliant!! So beautifully stated. And I always thought your motto was “From what a person degrades we see what they’re machshiv” Take your own lesson to heart.June 14, 2022 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #2096812
To answer your question @Shlomo 2 I cannot believe you are still not able to understand the simple situation. I typed into google the words “Achas Sha’alti (Psalm 27:4)” with the intention of finding meforshim of that posuk in tehillim, to which google then produced the very first link taking me to the sefaria page of that woman singing. If this is too hard to understand then my only advice to you is to daven ato chonein with a bit more kavonah.June 14, 2022 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #2096819
If you would have used your time to actually learn, you wouldn’t be so bent out of shape because you heard a woman singing. It’s happened before.June 14, 2022 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #2096867
I’m sorry I’m coming late to the discussion (and possibly even sidetracking it) however look at the signs of acher and R Meir that really one shouldn’t learn Torah from apikorsim there is a whole raid on it from the tosfos over there, the rambam etcJune 14, 2022 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #2096873AviraDeArahParticipant
Genocide, avodah zara, infanticide, nuclear holocausts, mass starvation, and lots of other things have ‘happened before’ too.
Someone asked rav chaim what the point of protesting is if it won’t change anything. His words are written on the heart of every ehrlich yid – vehn s’gait mivh ohn, shreit min
When it hurts, you scream.June 14, 2022 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #2096879
……….It’s happened before. And when it happens to Bnei Torah view open their gemara and completely forget that it ever occurred.June 14, 2022 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #2096880
……….It’s happened before. And when it happens to Bnei Torah they open their gemara and completely forget that it ever occurred.June 14, 2022 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #2096888Reb EliezerParticipant
it says איזהו חכם הלומד מכל אדם like Rebbi Meir who was able to learn even from Acher.June 14, 2022 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #2096890
Interesting point is that someone found a funny page by using google pointing to sefaria.
One possible reason: google will highlight something “popular” and we know what “rov” is interested in … I would guess that X-rated pages from Yevamos are highly rated by Google, whether they have a difficult tosfos or not.
Another: google is following your history. So, if it learned that you are young, male, not very much, and maybe, G-d forbid, ever tried to avoid your parents’ filters – google will lead you where you want. This is like Hashem usually does – if you insist on your way, he’ll let you.
Bottom line – try using internet responsibly and then google will learn your interests and become better to you.June 14, 2022 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #2096901
common > look at the signs of acher and R Meir that really one shouldn’t learn Torah from apikorsim
due to my sins, I could not see to which post this relates, but this is an interesting topics in itself. Rambam seemingly ignores Gemora’s permission for “gedolim” to learn from “acherim”. Some (Rav Shach?) explain that he felt that in his times, there were no gedolim any more (sic!), others – that he is writing general advice or talking about public teaching. This is interesting in light of Rambam obviously learning (maybe not torah but Chochma only) from “Acherim”, at least Muslim and Greek ones.
Clearly, R Meir’s situation is pretty exceptional. I do not see this mentioned, but he apparently started ldearning from Acher before Acher went OTD. So, there is an issue of attachment and all Torah that he already learned.
R Soloveichik has a talk in 1991 about Acher and how he is a complicated personality who misunderstood himself
repairedJune 15, 2022 12:23 am at 12:23 am #2096943
Your guess is wrong. And the page in question is not a result of search history. It’s a pretty specific query.June 15, 2022 12:32 am at 12:32 am #2096882
His words are written on the heart of every ehrlich yid…..
Yes, but for Bnei Torah kasvam al luach leebecha, it’s not worth the space.June 15, 2022 8:42 am at 8:42 am #2097008
@n0mesorah the eigel also happened before and yet we still have a chiyuv to remember and discuss it every single day. So too, we have this eigel right before us of the use of Torah learning from krum and halachically corrupted sources like sefaria, its poshut avoida zora, as I said, the translations are written by Dr Judith Hauptman – sefaria’s ‘talmudical scholar’. So this morei heter of ‘its happened before’ is pretty shvach. As it was very well put ‘vehn s’gait mivh ohn, shreit min`. You say when it happens to bnei Torah they ‘forget it ever occurred’? Why does the Torah say ‘zochor al tishkach eis asher hiktzafto as Hashem Eloikecho bamidbar’, that seems like the opposite of ‘forget it ever hapened’?
@Always_Ask_Questions interesting and unfortunate that that is the way you think but the title of the page on google is actually “Achat Sha’alti (Psalm 27:4) – Sefaria” so I’m not sure of this accusation that my history is of women singing and therefore google will have taken me to this page? The woman singing was a clip half way down the page. Interesting svora though.June 15, 2022 8:44 am at 8:44 am #2097017
“it says איזהו חכם הלומד מכל אדם like Rebbi Meir who was able to learn even from Acher.“
That’s true however tosfos gives a reason why Rav Meir can do it, there are Halachos regarding who one can learn from, and they make a differentiation between a גדול & קטן and if a person will be swayed by the apikorus then he’s a קטן and it’s not so pashut who won’t be swayedJune 15, 2022 10:52 am at 10:52 am #2097086
That would be to sit and study by him as an attempt to imbibe all his wisdom. It doesn’t apply to gaining insight into a specific matter. And for sure not to translations or finding sources.June 15, 2022 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #2097232
If a bowl is dirty the water poured into it becomes dirty tooJune 15, 2022 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #2097275
If it’s that’s kind of problem, than we can just look at the product and see what it is. What’s wrong with sefaria? I can’t vouch for it, but a bachur coming across song lyrics and then clicking on the link to Facebook, is not a standard breaker to me.June 15, 2022 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #2097290
UnderstoodJune 15, 2022 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #2097292
Looking at the first page of this thread is what I was basing onJune 15, 2022 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #2097312nishtdayngesheftParticipant
It does say in the gemara that “sefer Torah shekosvoi min yisoref”.
Its easy enough to look up the halacha. See what poskim say, not gadolhadorah.June 15, 2022 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #2097310
@n0mesorah “What’s wrong with sefaria?”
You dont see anything wrong with learning Gemora from women?June 15, 2022 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #2097321
Do you see anything wrong about learning Bircas Shmuel from a Rosh Yeshiva who can’t quote tosafos straight?June 15, 2022 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #2097322
It’s on a screen. So that’s not really a factor here. Let’s keep the issue to content.June 15, 2022 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #2097324
The translations are from koren. Which is all men. I don’t know what they added from women. Additional translations? No problem. Links to mefarshim? No problem. Background information? No problem. I don’t use sefaria much, so I can’t guess more. You’ll have to find out what the women contribute before anyone should care about your gripes.
Your ignorance is nobody’s problem but your own.June 16, 2022 9:27 am at 9:27 am #2097361GadolhadorahParticipant
“So you don’t see anything wrong with learning Gemora from women?”
Absolutely not, unless you prefer to wallow in your ignorance derived exclusively from male sources. If a woman can provide a more intelligible and accessible pshat on some sugyah you have previously had difficulty understanding, you’d be a real jerk to avoid reading it simply because it was WRITTEN by a woman.
So, grow up “Big Bochur?June 16, 2022 9:27 am at 9:27 am #2097432
@n0mesorah your apikorsos is nobody’s problem but your own. If an organization hires women to write their translations for the Torah, irrelevant of what they are translating they cannot be trusted and encouraged. I have no idea who you are but from the sounds of your excuses, I have a nice picture in my head.June 16, 2022 9:27 am at 9:27 am #2097444nishtdayngesheftParticipant
Perhaps ponder for a moment why the Halacha is so. Did you really think I was advocating burning down the internet?
It is clear from the mesorah we have from gedolie poskim such as the mechaber is that you should not from such books.
But, your answer is that it’s on a screen. Very elegant.June 16, 2022 9:27 am at 9:27 am #2097449anonymous JewParticipant
I don’t see the issue with banning. Whomever has an issue, don’t use it, just don’t tell others not to.June 16, 2022 10:18 am at 10:18 am #2097509
First verify that they used her translations. They didn’t they used Koren. Did they put anything of hers into the Online Talmud? I doubt it. She’s not a layman’s kind of scholar. It’s your assumption that her ideas are mixed into the site. Prove it. The fact that you got so bent out of shape without realizing that you perf seeing song lyrics when you where looking for mefarshim on a passuk. If they have Hauptmann singing songs and you think that’s her saying a heretical pshat in the gemara, we’re not going to ban Sefaria. We’ll shun you for being unreliable.June 16, 2022 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #2097496
״Absolutely not, unless you prefer to wallow in your ignorance derived exclusively from male sources.״
כל המלמד בתו תורה כאילו מלמדה תפלותJune 16, 2022 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #2097508
Look up the Gemora in Kiddushin chuf tes omud beis whuch clearly teaches that women are not supposed to learn Torah. You can also find that he The Rambam in Hilchos Talmud Torah 1:13 and the Shulchan Aruch in Yoreh Deah 246:6 pasken that women should not learn Gemora.June 16, 2022 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #2097517
My apikorsus is my own. That’s why I work off what you say, without trying to paint a picture of you. It doesn’t matter. Even someone like Hauptmann could sometimes have a good point.
But your picture is all wrong. If your Rebbe is stuck on a Reb Akiva Eiger, I’ll help him out.June 16, 2022 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #2097524
Sorry I overrated what you meant.
1. The point is, it’s on your screen. Your the one who ‘wrote it’. Assuming you don’t see yourself as a min, if you approve of the content, there is no problem here. It is regular Torah.
2. Here is what I once pondered on this halachah. Is it a regular k’sav without kedushas stam? Is it no kedushah at all, but it looks like sheimos, so we save it? Is it a full kedushah but minus can’t be Torah, so it’s burned?
3. It is even more clear from the contents of the sefarim that are treasured on our shelves, that we have been using these sources when the contents are good.June 16, 2022 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #2097760
@n0mesorah you’re so naïve, you’d prefer to just rant for the fun of it without doing any research of your own. The fact of the matter is the organization uses a renowned female ‘Talmudic scholar’, that’s that, they say on their own website that she is one of their translators. You’d be mental to let your rebbeim teach your children Torah using a source like that. There’s a high chance the translations are twisted and corrupted to comply with their beliefs (i.e. allowing women to learn gemora, not requiring married women to cover hair etc.). Their mehalach is completely threatening our chincuch system and the future of your children. I don’t need to verify that they are her translations, the fact is their translation is not kosher – end of. And you can’t twist my words, I’m not lying, I found a video of a lady singing on the same page as a page of meforshim on the posuk ‘achas shoalti’ on sefaria. If you don’t believe me, google it. If you don’t do your own research, we’ll just shun you for being irresponsible.June 17, 2022 11:43 am at 11:43 am #2097955
big? bochur > You dont see anything wrong with learning Gemora from women?
Rav Yehuda laughs off some arrogant request for learning comparing him with Beruriah and her great ability to learn a lot from multiple teachers. He is not recommending to learn from Beruriah, but it is at least a testimony that multiple teachers would either admit Beruriah into their class, or teach her one-on-one (with presumably the Rebetzin sitting and knitting nearby).
If you want to apply this sugiya to modern times, you will be better off learning opinions of, say, R Moshe Feinstein and his relatives – a cousin and a son-in-law. You can also peruse CR.June 20, 2022 10:52 am at 10:52 am #2097988
Firstly, beruriah was punished severely, her father was killed by the romans, her mother and brother died violently, her two sons died suddenly on the same day, her sister was exiled, her husband ran away and she hung herself. A very clear proof that the riboiboi shel oilom does not want women to learn Gemora. They should rather care for their families, support her husband in learning Torah and she should serve Hashem in the way Hashem wants her to. And the question is whether we can learn Gemora from them, not whether you can ‘teach her one-on-one’.
And its very ironic how you tell me to learn the opinions of Reb Moshe Feinstein as I can guarantee you that R’ Moshe holds of the gemora in kiddushin, rambam and shulchan aruch that women cannot learn gemora so maybe you should learn the opinions of R’ Moshe.June 24, 2022 10:27 am at 10:27 am #2099972Reb EliezerParticipant
The women make birchas hatorah, so the women are required to learn what applies to them.June 24, 2022 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #2100043
The discussion in those sources is about teaching Torah to women. That means that the students are female. Not what gender the teachers are. I would discuss either with you if you try to get anything straight.
I’m not ranting. The fact is that Sefaria got their translation from Steinsaltz. In your view, what is the difference between lying and research?
The problem with Haupttman is not that she is a woman. She, and nobody like her, had any impact on their translation of the Talmud.
There are no mefarshim on that page. Only links. Can you answer if you played her song, and why you decided to click on the embedded video?
I looked up those pages from your first mention of them. I’ve been calling your bluff the whole time. Here’s a tip. Before you make outrageous statements online, think what would happen if just one person with a different view takes the time to check it up.June 24, 2022 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #2100090Politically IncorrectParticipant
Why do we need to ban anything? You’re a smart person! You don’t like it, don’t use it.June 24, 2022 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #2100154
PI > Why do we need to ban anything? You’re a smart person!
There is value of having Jewish resources without shmutz, so that people who do not want it can confidently stay on that site. That what a smart person would do. Sefaria seems to be doing a reasonable trade-off between being an open site and limiting problems, given that only one person here was able to find something inappropriate (probably after looking for it for a long time).June 24, 2022 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #2100153
n0mesorah, thanks a lot. I did not know that Sefaria’s gemora is using R Steinsaltz! Woe to me for not recognizing it … I think I looked up what Seforia sources are before 2017. I don’t recall whether they had Bavli then at all. Also, they are using mathematician’s Heinrich Guggenheimer 2015 translation for Yerushalmi.
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