September 11, 2022 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #2123306lopman23Participant
Is there a mesora for making a bar mitzva party in the form that its done today ? Almost like a “wedding lite” or is it mainly an American invention ? Basically in the seforim do we find a mekor for a formal seuda ?September 11, 2022 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #2123415
The Magen Avraham O’CH 225 s’k 4 says that we should make a sudah, a party on the day after his Bar Mitzva like a wedding in order to celebrate it by make it known to the public that he became responsible to do mitzvos. He quotes from the Yam Shel Shlomo (Maharshal) in Bava Kama that if he gives a speech in Torah, it does not have to be done that day it is a sudas mitzva.September 11, 2022 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #2123421☕️coffee addictParticipant
I know someone that’s making it in a hotel
I don’t know where they get this mishugasSeptember 11, 2022 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #2123423
While I’m sure one can find some basis in our mesorah for a d’var torah and associated seudas mitzvah, I cannot believe the current level of extravaganzas with big simcha halls, bands, celebrity singers and enough food for several shtetlekh is mandated by daas torah.September 11, 2022 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #2123424
For a Bas Mitzva there is a three sided argument. the Seridei Aish considers it a requirement that the girls should not feel left out. Reb Moishe Feinstein ztz’l says that it should not be done in a shul as it is voluntary like any other birthday party. The Debretziner Rav, Rav Moshe Stern ztz’l held that it is a reform custom and one should not attend when invited. I made it but only for the women.September 11, 2022 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #2123426
Weddings themselves weren’t extravagant in our mesorah. A bar mitzvah was just some schnapps and cake in shul, from what elderly jews have told me.September 11, 2022 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #2123438
AVD is 100 percent correct. The one-upsmanship in yiddeshe simchas is obscene and even efforts by gedolim to restrict the arms-race seem to have limited effect.September 11, 2022 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #2123448anonymous JewParticipant
Avira, if you’re going to hold by mesorah, then our mesorah is to have weddings erev Shabbos!September 11, 2022 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #2123454
The problem is that to keep up with the Johnses by imitating them, even though they can’t afford making these elaborate parties, end up getting themselves into debt.September 11, 2022 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #2123464ujmParticipant
Reb Eliezer, Rav Moshe is very against making a Bas Mitzvah party. He has three teshuvos in the Igros Moshe against it. He calls it a Reform innovation.September 11, 2022 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #2123485Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
My mesorah is herring, shnaps and gemora vort by the bar mitzva. The main place where a bar mitzva boy is discussed in a chumash is ben soreh and moreh. Was he eating at the bar mitzva is not clear.
Weddings and funeral were always going towards more expensive ones, there are lots of takonos in Gemora and later trying to make them less extravagant.September 11, 2022 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #2123486Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Friday weddings in Europe were out of necessity when people were dirt poor. In bgreek times, we had wedding on odd days to avoid a hegemon crashing the party.September 11, 2022 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #2123470
Anon, go ahead! As long as you’re making a simple European wedding where the only people eating the seudah are family and very close friends…the seudah being a shabbos seudahSeptember 11, 2022 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #2123477☕️coffee addictParticipant
“Weddings themselves weren’t extravagant in our mesorah.“
What about a ירושלים של זהב and על תרנגול ותרנגלתא…
What do you call “not extravagant”?September 12, 2022 7:48 am at 7:48 am #2123530anonymous JewParticipant
Not for me. You’re the one harking back to East European mesorah. BTW, the lack of extravagance was largely due to a lack of resources . You can’t spend what you don’t have.September 12, 2022 9:19 am at 9:19 am #2123554September 12, 2022 10:33 am at 10:33 am #2123576
“The problem is that to keep up with the Johnses by imitating them, even though they can’t afford…”
Well, as usual, Reb E nailed it. First of all the Johnses most likely aren’t yiiden and if by some chance they are, they may be slightly assimilated modernishe yidden living in the Hollywood Hills who can afford to pay R’ Neil Diamond (another ehrliche yid) $50,000 to sing a set of Lipa Shmeltzer nigunim to several hundred of their BFFs for their tokhter’s bat mitzvah gala at the Beverly Hills Hotel atrium.September 12, 2022 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #2123659Amil ZolaParticipant
Gadolhadorah, years ago I worked for a frum business in Los Angeles and got an invite to the bar mitzva of the owners son. It was a huge over the top affair with Michael Jackson performing.September 12, 2022 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2123670
im sure michael jackson inspired the boy to keep the mitzvos and shteig in learning.September 12, 2022 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #2123678ubiquitinParticipant
” Rav Moshe is very against making a Bas Mitzvah party”
Where can these Teshuvos be found?
In the printed teshuvos, he is not “very against” it:
he calles it a “devar reshus” ( OC 1:104) that is assur in shul, and “not assur” in the home
in OC 2:30 he again reiterates it is a “devar reshus” which is assur to be made in shul, unless shul was built al tnai to host “parties”
In OC 2:97 he explains why three is no mitzva to make a seuda, unlike bar mitzvah, but does not suggest an issur
Finnaly in OC 4:36 (in a teshuva to R’ Meir Kahane) he yet again calls it a “reshus” and allows a Kiddush with a speech wishng mazel tov (though not at the bima, )
Is there anther teshuva in whcih you see him saying he is “very agaisnt” it .
Are you defining “devar reshus” as being something assur ?
thanksSeptember 12, 2022 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #2123673
Amil Zola: I wasn’t invited to that one either. And also, lest someone suggest I was criticizing Lipa S., he is a big baal tzadakah and has on many occasions performed with no compensation in cases where the baalei simcha were going through hard times.September 12, 2022 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #2123672ujmParticipant
Amil, anyone who would even consider inviting Jackson could not be properly described as frum.September 12, 2022 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #2123724
Lipa danced with my son the macarena and sang Aishes Chayil to them at his wedding 12 years ago
still available on youtube.
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