Bas mitzvahs

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  • #615679

    maran
    Member

    Is there anything wrong with celebrating a bas mitzvah? Why should there be a difference between a boy and a girl she also becomes obligated in mitzvohs on her 12th birthday !? So why are there many families that dont celebrate bas mitzvahs?

    #1077506

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yes, it is wrong to make a ceremony and celebration. Rav Moshe wrote multiple teshuvos condemning them where he explained the halachic problems. See:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/bas-mitzvah-ceremonies-rav-moshes-psak

    #1077507

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    ummm,

    how does one celebrate a bas mitzvah

    #1077508

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    “If I had the ability, in our country I would do away with the bar mitzvah celebration for boys, for it is well known that this celebration never brought any person closer to Torah and mitzvah, not even the bar mitzvah boy, and not even for a brief moment.”

    #1077509

    Because if women are bad why would you celebrate a girl becoming a woman?

    #1077510

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    rebyidd,

    i hope you’re joking, all those boys that finish mishnayos for their bar mitzvah don’t become closer to Hashem?

    #1077511

    cozimjewish
    Member

    maran – I don’t think it’s that they don’t celebrate bas mitzvahs, I think it’s that they don’t throw as extravagant a party for a bas mitzvah as they might for a barmi. A lot just have a small party for close family and friends. Personally, I don’t think either a bas mitzvah or a bar mitzvah has to be as over the top as some of the celebrations I have seen. But each to their own, as they say.

    #1077512

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    Actually the teshuvos linked to above say it’s not ossur and that you can make it at home, just not inside a beis kennesses.

    #1077513

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Why should a daughter feel she is not as special to her parents as her brother neither has to be over the top, but is the subliminal message well your only a girl so will just have a little party for you.

    #1077514

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    coffee addict,

    i hope you’re joking, all those boys that finish mishnayos for their bar mitzvah don’t become closer to Hashem?

    RebYidd23 was quoting a translation of Igros Moshe that Joseph posted several years ago. And I think Rav Moshe was directing those comments towards the over-the-top bar mitzva celebrations, not the bar mitzva itself.

    #1077515

    cozimjewish
    Member

    The Goq – I don’t agree. Some of the bar mitzvos people make are huge. For me, I don’t feel it is appropriate for so much attention to be focused on one young girl; it’s different for a boy. Of course, everybody feels differently, and I definitely hear what you’re saying. But I don’t think that a nice, small family dinner is any less of a celebration than a huge catered meal in a fancy hall. I have really nice memories of friends and family members’ bas mitzvos celebrated in a simple, modest way. I know that my sister took my niece on a really expensive overseas trip, because it was cheaper than having a bas mitzvah party – in the school she goes to, there is a tremendous pressure to make your bas mitzvah party WAAAAYYY nicer (and far more expensive) than the last one. When my sister worked out the cost of such a huge affair (my niece was conveniently born right at the end of the year), she found that a 3-week trip cost less. In my opinion, that is way over the top. Every girl wants to fit in; nobody wants to be the nerd. I don’t believe there should be such a ridiculous pressure to make that whole shebang. It’s not a wedding! And I don’t think it’s very tznius, either.

    #1077516

    akuperma
    Participant

    1. Unless you hold there is a prohibition of celebrating a birthday, why not celebrate her 12th. It’s a birthday party.

    2. For boys, the ceremony involves doing things a boy at 13 can do which he couldn’t previously, but is limited to things that are not dangerous (having an aliyah and leading a minyan). Most other things one can do as a Bar Mitzvah (sign contracts, get married, be liable for criminal punishments, etc. – are not done for obivious reasons). For girls, the only big change is they can do all the “dangerous” things boys can, but which we don’t want them to. There really isn’t anything as 12 year old girl can do, that we want her to, that she couldn’t before.

    #1077517

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Seeing that thread, I miss the good old days of the CR 🙁

    #1077518

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    avram,

    kol ha’omer davar b’sheim omro mavee geulah l’olam

    i figured it was a quote though due to the quotation marks, just didnt kknow who said it

    #1077519

    maran
    Member

    Joseph, regarding the last teshuvah from rav moshe that says a bas mitzvah isnt a seudas mitzvah rav ovadia yosef in yechaveh daas brings down the igros moshe and he says he doesnt understand why if its noticable that there was a change in the girl should make a difference if it is a seudas mitzvoh or not and he writes that forsure a bas mitzvah would be a seudas mitzvah

    #1077520

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Not having read Rav Moshe’s tshuva, I would hazard a guess that the cause of his objection was that it was initiated by Mordechai Kaplan, an Orthodox rabbi who founded Reconstructionist Judaism. 90 years later, noone remembers this so it is no longer viewed as copying their minhag. The real key is making the bar mitzvah as inexpensive as the bas mitzvah, not the other way around

    #1077521

    miritchka
    Member

    Dont we celebrate a bar mitzvah because he is entering the next stage where he has the requirement of more mitzvos?

    #1077522

    akuperma
    Participant

    lesschumras: There are no expenses requires for a Bar Mitzvah, nor for a Bas Mitzvah. Almost any shul will give the boy an aliya, and if you do it on Monday or Thursday they never expect a donation. Actually, the aliyah is just a way of showing off that “I am now an adult”. Suppose he did something else like enter into a contract to show he had reached adulthood– not a good idea. You become Bar MItzvah automatically on your birthday – no ceremony required.

    Ah, you like to spend lots of money on parties — well that’s a different matter and is totally unrelated to the halachos of Bnei Mitzvah.

    #1077523

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It doesn’t have to cost a lot of money.

    #1077524

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “i hope you’re joking, all those boys that finish mishnayos for their bar mitzvah don’t become closer to Hashem?”

    “And I think Rav Moshe was directing those comments towards the over-the-top bar mitzva celebrations, not the bar mitzva itself.”

    I wonder if R’ Moshe was addressing those celebrations where there is more emphasis on the bar than the mitzvah.

    #1077525

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Akuperma, where did I say I like to spend lots of money on parties and that I needed a lecture on what constitutes a bar mitzvah?

    What I did say is bar mitzvas should be as INEXPENSIVE as bas mitzvas. For my daughter, we made a kiddush in shul and a small party the next day for relatives and her classmates. And, before you ask, I don’t have sons but my grandson’s bar mitzvah seudah was in a shul with fewer than 100 guests. There is no reason to spend enormous amounts of money.

    #1077526

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    For a girl we make a private party, as a tribute and haschala for her being mechuyav in mitzvohs, specifically in areas of tznius. What a befitting way – a party in a tznua way.

    For a boy we throw a lavish celebration to mark his being mechuyav in mitzvohs, to show how happy we are with HaShem’s mitzvohs, we’re readily accepting them upon ourselves, now as a full-fledged “metzuvah v’oseh”. HaShem’s Mitzvohs – that’s something worth getting excited about.

    #1077527

    nitpicker
    Participant

    I know I am going to be sorry for this,

    but

    rav moshe zatsal wrote that bas mitsva is not seudas mitsvah.

    not because it is any less worth celebrating her new status, but because there are certain guidelines as to what costitutes a seudas mitsvah and this doesn’t meet those guidelines.

    interestingly,

    the debreciner, in his tshuva sefer be’er moshe

    comes to the same conclusion. (he apparently was not aware of rav moshe’s tshuva but decided this on his own.)

    he writes that when asked, his first reaction was, “Why not. what’s the difference?”, but after looking into the matter, he concluded it was not a seudas mitsvah.

    over and out.

    #1077528

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    So, LF, do we show that we want our boys to be immodest and are not happy about our girls being mechuyav in mitzvos?

    #1077529

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Women aren’t jewish. the whole question makes no sense.

    #1077530

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Of course women aren’t Jewish, but how is that relevant?

    #1077531

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    When I turned bas mitzva, my parents took me to ChapaNosh, or maybe it was Chaval al Hazman. I had never eaten in anything fancier than a pizza shop, and was very impressed.

    They talked to me seriously about how I have to keep mitzvos now and gave me a present.

    It was very nice and IYH I hope to do the same for my daughters.

    #1077532

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    For my bas mitzva, we had a pinata that the sleeves were too short, and we beat off the arms until the sleeves were long enough, and then the candy came out.

    #1077533

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    When I turned bas mitzva, my parents took me to ChapaNosh, or maybe it was Chaval al Hazman. I had never eaten in anything fancier than a pizza shop, and was very impressed.

    They talked to me seriously about how I have to keep mitzvos now and gave me a present.

    It was very nice and IYH I hope to do the same for my daughters.

    Well for my daughters, I would definitely take them to a pizza shop. I am not aware of anywhere better to eat than a pizza shop. Probably mendelsohns. There used to be a silly place that made square pizza, but I think its gone.

    #1077534

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You shouldn’t take a bas mitzvah girl to a pizza shop. Women are not Jewish, but young girls are as Jewish as young boys. They only become less Jewish than males when they come of age. So a bas mitzvah is the day a Jewish girl becomes a woman and is no longer Jewish. Is becoming non-Jewish something to celebrate with pizza?

    #1077535

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    RY: I’m gonna assume you didn’t fully read (comprehend) what I wrote. So let me repeat.

    A time of Bar/Bas Mitzvah is cause for great celebration. And we try to portray ourselves, as excited and wiling to take on HaShem’s mitzvohs now as “metzuvah v’oseh”. The more “dagesh” the better, it shows our goal in life, what’s important to us.

    But a girl’s innate tznius precludes this, her entrance into a world of Mitzvohs should be in a tznua’dig fashion. So they do have enthusiasm, it’s just from the inside – ???? ??? ?? ??????.

    ps as an aside, there’s a most beautiful song for a Bas Mitzvah, starts with something like “Come my dear daughter.. Today is the day..”

    #1077536

    cozimjewish
    Member

    I completely agree with LF and lesschumras

    #1077538

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There used to be a silly place that made square pizza, but I think its gone.

    Isn’t the term “square pizza” an oxymoron?

    I hope for your daughter’s bas mitzvah, you’ll take her to the back.

    #1077539

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Besides the party aspect what does the girl do at the party does she give a drasha or some acknoledgment of what the party is for i am being serious. There should be a distinction between a birthday party and a bas mitzvah.

    #1077540

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    Yechaveh Da’as 2:29

    Mutar and considered a seudas mitzvah. No difference in this respect between boy and girl upon reaching age of chiyuv in mitzvos. Also, that Ben Ish Chai would consider it a seudas mitzvah if it was a thing that people did (which they did not do at his time).

    Sridei Eish 2:39 or 3:93 depending on edition

    Thinks it’s a good idea similar to reasons for needing chinuch banos nowadays (in fact mentions Bais Yaakov by name). Agrees with Rav Moshe (by name) that it should not be done in shul. Says that it depends on the motivation (lesheim shomayim vs copying the minim as he puts it). Questions why some asser it based on emotion rather than halachic arguments (evidently there was a Coffee Room back then as well).

    #1077541

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Why celebrate non-Jewishness?

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