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  • #591970

    myfriend
    Member

    I remember learning that according to many shittos it is either assur or otherwise very wrong to shave (year round). Can anyone please shed light on the various sources for this issue?

    I believe the Chazon Ish is one who takes this position.

    #1206579

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    A shaiyla was once asked to (I believe it was) Rav Chaim Kanievsky, asking if one must wash his hands after shaving.

    His answer: It is assur to shave.

    #1206580

    It’s very wrong but I don’t think its assur.

    Klal Yisroel wouldn’t be nichshol b’rabim on an issur.

    I notice that threads are giving birth to other threads. Is this normal?

    Yes, if the topic changes, it warrants a new thread rather than getting off topic on the original thread.

    #1206581

    Max Well
    Member

    Is it assur to trim as well?

    I ask since I only want to what’s right and ideal. If I shouldn’t (or if its better not to) trim even, I would like to stop.

    Thank You

    #1206582

    blinky
    Participant

    Whats the reason that some ppl have a “boot” on the side of their face?

    #1206583

    apushatayid
    Participant

    What is the story said over in the name of the Satmar Rebbe Z’l?

    I dont remember who he said it to, or why he said it, but the punchline goes: When he gets to shamayim after 120 years they will ask him, Reb Yid, where is your beard, when you get to shamayim they will ask you, Beard, where is your Yid?

    #1206584

    bpt
    Participant

    No question about it, a beard is a very choshuv’e thing (in fact, I have one myself).

    But to say that shaving is assur? Explain BMG and Mir. If it were assur, the Roshei Yeshiva would put a stop to it.

    #1206585

    AOM:

    I have a sheilos rav and I looked through the whole sefer for this question but I didn’t find it. Is it in a different sefer? At least I can say for now ein danin min hamaiseh.

    Either way I don’t think he meant mamush assur. The Torah only assured using a razor.

    That being said I’m a strong proponent of growing beards and have one myself. My previous Rosh Yeshivah says a beard and peyos is part of the tzuras haYid. And the mekubalim are also very makpid on it.

    EDIT: Also the chazon Ish writes in Igeres 197 and 198 that the derech haYashar is to at least leave short hairs that can be termed “a grown beard”.

    #1206586

    APY:

    It was with Mike Tress. He went in to speak to the Rebbe and when he came out one of the Chassidim made a comment about his not having a beard. The Rebbe said to him “when mike goes to shamayim they will ask him “Yid Yid where is your beard?” when you go up to shamayim they will say “beard beard where is your Yid?”. That’s how I heard it.

    #1206587

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Thank you for putting the quote in context.

    #1206588

    arc
    Participant

    I heard R’ Gifter said “a bochur with a beard is a tie with pajamas”

    Many different poskim have different opinions elu v’elu divrei elokim chaim.

    #1206589

    arc I like that one.

    A previous mashgiach of mine who is a son of the Masgiach from gateshead (R’ Schwab) said that when he came to E”Y as a bochur he had the down to the bottom of the ear sideburns. Coming from England I guess that was normal but when he got to the Mir in E”Y either the R”Y or mashgiach (don’t remember which) made him trim them up to the bone.

    #1206590

    thatway
    Member

    In the sefer “Ishei Yisrael” ther is a shu”t section in the back where Rav Chaim Kanievsky was asked a range of questions. Among them was asking if one must wash his hands after shaving.

    His answer: It is assur to shave. (It is one of the first teshuvos)

    #1206591

    smartcookie
    Member

    Shaving a beard isn’t so simple but I don’t know the Halacha.

    #1206592

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    To: “thatway” – Ya’asher Ko’ach. Thank you for bringing the specific information regarding my comment back at the beginning of this thread.

    #1206593

    Dave Hirsch
    Participant

    The Pele Yoetz is very against shaving/trimming, saying that is will cause harm. However, I doubt it was meant to be L’Halacha (rather Kaballah — the Zohar is very intolerant). In Machne Yisroel, the Chofetz Chaim too is very Machmir. However, many Poskim permitted shaving as is stated in Tur (Hichos Rosh Hashana 582). Of course with a Hechsher.

    It should be noted that there is a dispute on the Nusach HaTur (Mechaber skips it). Look in Ohr Zarua (2;257), Shut Rivash (513), Biur HaGr”a (582), Tashbeitz (1;157), Shut Minchas Elazar (2;48).

    #1206594

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There are two issues.

    A. Keeping a beard.

    B. Using electric shavers.

    There are those who are noheig to keep a beard. I am not aware of anyone who says it is m’dina.

    The use of electric shavers is questionable. Some compare it to a razor. Some allow only certain models or types. Some require the blades to be dulled.

    Many people in the major yeshivos actually do not shave and will only trim or use powder. (Trimmers are not commonly considered a razor.)

    #1206595

    missme
    Member

    So far we have citations from the Chazon Ish, the Chofetz Chaim (in Machne Yisroel), Rav Kanievsky (in Ishei Yisrael) and the Pele Yoetz that one should maintain their beard and shouldn’t shave. Is their any heter anywhere that can be cited that does allow a Yid to forgo his beard?

    #1206596

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    So far we have citations from the Chazon Ish, the Chofetz Chaim (in Machne Yisroel), Rav Kanievsky (in Ishei Yisrael) and the Pele Yoetz that one should maintain their beard and shouldn’t shave. Is their any heter anywhere that can be cited that does allow a Yid to forgo his beard?

    Perhaps this may sound heretical and stupid, but I think it’s obvious from above that R. Gifter’s opinion is that shaving is allowed.

    The Wolf

    #1206597

    missme
    Member

    The alleged uncited brief quote of Rav Gifter zt”l seems unsubstantiated so far here. It may well be accurate, but that is what I am asking for.

    #1206598

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The alleged uncited brief quote of Rav Gifter zt”l seems unsubstantiated so far here. It may well be accurate, but that is what I am asking for.

    I know that my unparalleled stupidity is going to shine through here, but the fact that bochrim of some well-regarded yeshivos are required to be clean-shaven proves that the Roshei Yeshivos of those places allow shaving.

    The Wolf

    #1206599

    missme
    Member

    Who says they are so required? Another poster claimed as proof that since they do shave, it must be they are so allowed. But even that is not obvious. It may well be the R”Y simply feel powerless to fight this fight, even though they believe it to be wrong. They may well fear that it may chase some away from the Yeshiva, and it isn’t worth that trade-off.

    #1206600

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It may well be the R”Y simply feel powerless to fight this fight, even though they believe it to be wrong. They may well fear that it may chase some away from the Yeshiva, and it isn’t worth that trade-off.

    So, you’re saying that the R”Y would allow their bochrim to violate a mitzvah d’oraissah for fear that they won’t attend?! I know that I’m far too feeble-minded and far to corrupted by my modernity to cogently figure this out in a hashkafically pure way, but that just doesn’t sound right to me.

    The Wolf

    #1206601

    missme
    Member

    They may well realize if they attempt to enforce it, it will

    a) Chase the bochor away from the Yeshiva AND

    b) He will continue shaving nonetheless

    So it will accomplish nothing plus make matters worse by reducing his Limud Torah.

    #1206603

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Fine. Whatever. You win. Clearly I cannot compete with you mentally. I don’t care to argue about it anymore.

    The Wolf

    #1206604

    rebbe haham
    Member

    i dont know about you but these three weeks are killing me

    #1206605

    hello99
    Member

    Shulchan Aruch writes it is muttar to shave, as long as one does not use a razor.

    #1206606

    Dave Hirsch
    Participant

    Missme, seems like you read only half of my post (or pretended to). The Tur at the begining of Hilchos Rosh Hashana says that one should shave before Rosh Hashana. Many Poskim use this Tur to permit shaving.

    As to Roshei Yeshivos, many Yeshivos (in the United States) DEMAND that the Bocherim shave, so your theory isn’t correct.

    #1206607

    Max Well
    Member

    I asked around and found out that the Shulchan Aruch YD 182:1 doesn’t permit it because of v’Lo Yilbash Gever Simlas Ishah (Devarim 22:5 — so it is a m’daraisa prohibition). Rambam Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Avodas Kochavim 12:1 wrote: “Our Sages did not determine the amount of hair which must be left at the corners of our temples. We have heard, however, from our elders that one must leave at least forty hairs.” Rambam Hilchos Avodah Zarah 12:9 wrote: The Torah permits a man to remove hair from other parts of the body (other than the beard or sideburns), e.g. the underarms and Ervah.

    #1206608

    hello99
    Member

    maxwell: Shulchan Aruch there DOES permit shaving the body other then the armpits and pubic hair as long as a razor is not used. In YD 181:11 Shulchan Aruch writes that the beard may not be shaved with a razor, anything other then a razor is permitted.

    #1206609

    myfriend
    Member

    If I understand it correctly, Yoreh De’ah 182:1 is saying that this is true only in societies where men don’t commonly shave their pubic hair, but that if they do it’s permissible.

    The Rema adds that chaverim – Torah scholars – would still avoid doing so.

    #1206610

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “So far we have citations from the Chazon Ish, the Chofetz Chaim (in Machne Yisroel), Rav Kanievsky (in Ishei Yisrael) and the Pele Yoetz that one should maintain their beard and shouldn’t shave. Is their any heter anywhere that can be cited that does allow a Yid to forgo his beard?”

    Strictly, halachicly, speaking. In these citations it is not said that it is ASSUR to shave, please quote from the above that it is ASSUR to do so ( i think it says it, or it speaks strongly about not doing it doesnt cut it). As such a heter is not needed to for something that is not assur.

    As an aside, I was approached by my Rabbeim a number of times in my yeshiva years when I was lazy and didnt shave or take a haircut and asked in a joking manner “did you take on nezirus?”

    #1206611

    Max Well
    Member

    apy: Did you read them?? Some of them clearly say it is assur outright. Rav Kanievsky is one, and I believe the Chazon Ish as well.

    #1206612

    arc
    Participant

    Missme if your minhag is not to shave then dont. Others that dont have the same minhag will and we are both right.

    At the risk of sounding like a heretic, there are many gedolim that have various shittas that not everyone holds like. If you have no connection to a gadol, you dont have to follow his shitaah IF you have a minhag otherwise.

    For example the chazon ish and shaving or the right shiur for kiddush.

    A yekishe bochur was told by R’ Breur (sic?), to tell his R”Y that the yekki minhagim predate the mishna brura by a few hundred years. therefore, even though the mishna brura says otherwise, the YB should do his minhag. (story was in the yated recently in the chinuch roundtable)

    #1206613

    Max Well
    Member

    arc, this isn’t a matter of a “minhug”, but rather a question of a m’doraisa from Sefer Devorim.

    And I’d be skeptical of that alleged yekki story, as the Mishna Berura didn’t invent anything but simply transmitted a mesora from thousands of years.

    #1206614

    arc
    Participant

    max how we translate and apply the torah especially in this case IS minhag.

    Many people don’t hold like the mishna brura on many things and I’m not only talking about sfardim. i am going to go out on a limb (based on the way you type “minhug” not ‘minhag”) and say you yourself have minhaggim different then M”B.

    #1206615

    Max Well
    Member

    arc, no its still not “minhug”. Its halacha.

    #1206616

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Like I said. Please tell me what sefer, – as they say, chapter and verse, – states it is ASSUR to shave if you are not shaving off what you are not supposed to or using an implement that you are not supposed to.

    #1206617

    Max Well
    Member

    Sefer Ishei Yisrael in the Shu”t section in the back, for one.

    #1206618

    arc
    Participant

    Again R’ Kanievski I’m not questioning him, I’m just saying I have a minhag and mesorah that it isn’t assur to shave. I also have no connection to him that implores me to follow everything he paskens.

    I know some of R’ Yackovs grandchildren and some of R’ Moshe’s grandchildren shaved. My father, grandfather and other choshuv members of my family, that live their lives c’halacha, shave(d) as well.

    #1206619

    apushatayid
    Participant

    OK. Now we are getting somewhere.

    In the Sefer Ishei Yisroel. What was the Shayla that was asked and what was the response?

    #1206620

    Max Well
    Member

    Shaila: Must one wash his hands after shaving?

    Teshuva: It is assur to shave.

    #1206621

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Shaila: Must one wash his hands after shaving?

    Teshuva: It is assur to shave.

    Does he say why?

    #1206622

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    A more important question to ask is (and I know I’m going to the lowest circle of gehenim for even suggesting this) — is R. Kanievsky’s teshuva normative halacha? Becuase if you really wanted to, you could always search out the most machmir position on every issue — but we clearly don’t do that. As such, even if R. Kanievsky says it’s assur, that doesn’t make it the final be-all-and-end-all p’sak.

    The Wolf

    #1206623

    Max Well
    Member

    Rav Chaim is not a lone wolf on this issue. Yes, it is a normative opinion. If someone is seeking out every kula, I’m sure he can find them. Like you said, “but we clearly don’t do that.”

    #1206624

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Rav Chaim is not a lone wolf on this issue.

    I thin you may owe R. Chaim an apology for using his name and mine in the same sentence.

    If someone is seeking out every kula, I’m sure he can find them. Like you said, “but we clearly don’t do that.”

    Agreed. But that doesn’t prove the point that it’s normative halacha. In fact, since there *are* clearly those who permit (even if you don’t hold so for yourself) then it’s clearly not a unanimous opinion.

    The Wolf

    #1206625

    Max Well
    Member

    “In fact, since there *are* clearly those who permit”

    Where? Someone asked earlier “Please tell me what sefer, – as they say, chapter and verse, – states it is ASSUR to shave” and I responded. Please do the reverse.

    #1206627

    apushatayid
    Participant

    One more question. Is “shaving” in this context a generic term for removal of the beard in any manner (powder, shaver, whatever else may be out there) or does it refer to something specific, IE an electric shaver, a razor or something else?

    #1206628

    Max Well
    Member

    Generic shaving the beard in general. Not method specific.

    #1206629

    apushatayid
    Participant

    http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-mitzvos-shavers.htm

    Unfortunately, they do not quote the Siman in Igros Moshe. I’m sure someone with a Yad Moshe will find it rather easily.

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