October 18, 2021 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #2016843
I was at a bais ovel recently and two “talmiday chochim” met there and they loudly started to reminisce about the yeshiva days and sprinklered in with a few reden in lernen and totally ignored the availim, after 20 minutes of this they spoke 30 seconds to the availim said the posek and left.
In an other bais ovel i recently went to a rosh yeshiva of a defunct mini yeshiva held court for a half hour on a monologe of his hashkafa in liife with the availim wanting him to stop and leaveOctober 18, 2021 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #2018068GoldilocksParticipant
Someone should have asked them to leave.October 18, 2021 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #2018133
Common- can you help me out here? You aren’t 17 nor are you otd. So what’s with the “talmide chachamim” and “rosh yeshiva of a defunct mini yeshiva ” trash? You sound like a disgruntled teenager who needs to make sure to disparage rabbeim maximally when it has nothing to do with your point. What gives? I was 100% sure this was a troll post when I read it and am shocked you could produce this type of waste.October 18, 2021 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #2018135
I was about to post a comment when I noticed that Syag already posted exactly what I was about to say.October 18, 2021 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #2018190AviraDeArahParticipant
Am I somehow living on an alternate plane where I don’t see bnei Torah constantly involved in abhorrent behavior, while my counterparts in a different plane see it everyday?October 18, 2021 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #2018192
You right. The halacha is that the visitors are not suppose to speak until the aveilim speak.October 18, 2021 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #2018194anonymous JewParticipant
Syag, I’ve observed some odd behaviours at shiva houses. A friend and his father were sitting shiva for his mother and shadchanim came to check out the father. Real estate agents came to a friends shiva in Far Rockaway ( with his mother’s passing the house was going to be sold ) and handed out cards. Miahulachim from Israel came to our Rav’s shiva to sign their letters so they could go collecting in the communityOctober 18, 2021 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #2018193
@Syag, it really peved me that night and had to get it off my chest, sadly this not the first time I had seen this behavior, in this case both of the men who felt compelled to show off how learned they were.
As to the former rosh yeshiva, if the guy had a bread route I doubt he would of held court as to what his haskafa is.October 18, 2021 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #2018197
Syag, because knowing a lot of Torah or being iluyish doesn’t equate to being a talmid chacham. Anyone can be a rosh yeshiva too. That doesn’t automatically make you chashuv. Some people just want to be rebbish and caught up in the hock with their elite chevrah. That’s their simchas hachaim apparently..
Really, the best thing to do in the beis avel is to shut your mouth unless you pick up a que that the avel wants to hear from you.October 18, 2021 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #2018211
Anon – not sure why you mention me for this story. My advice, move to a city where life runs differently.
Shimon – missed the boat. I didn’t ask why their being learned bothered him, I asked why he felt an infantile need to elaborate on that point, and dis rabbaim while pretending to have a real point.
CS – I feel your pain but you didn’t answer my question and frankly, pas nisht.October 18, 2021 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #2018210
Avirah, it’s called illusory superiority. It was very popular in Germany. The maaleh isn’t with you, it’s with CS. He’s able to observe objectively.October 18, 2021 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #2018215
Um, no. sorry. There was nothing objective about his observation. Nor is getting something off your chest something you do in a public forum without taking 10 deep breaths and removal of anything that can look like chilul Hashem or bizayon. Just because it mirrored some of your posts and thoughts, that’s not the definition of objective.October 18, 2021 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #2018218
Syag, I’m glad I missed the boat. I wouldn’t want to be stuck on it with you! (Jk)October 19, 2021 1:32 am at 1:32 am #2018297
Common – I received an email from a personal moderator of my posts who felt I should cut you some slack. I apologize. Please be moichel.October 19, 2021 9:56 am at 9:56 am #2018382jackkParticipant
As a sign of mechila, CS should cut the 2 Talmiday chochomim and the Rosh Yeshiva some slack also and be dan them lcaf zchus. That is a mitzva min hatorah of being Dan Tzadikim Lcaf zchus.October 19, 2021 10:20 am at 10:20 am #2018424
@Syag, I was wrong at point out that they were “talminay chaochim” I said that as a point of reference, I would have been upset if two Baal batim met at a bais ovel and spent the time having a cross converation of the finer points of owning a Telsa or what the chances of a team winning the World Cup.
@Jackk, I will be dan lcav zechus, and assume they were so happy to see each other and reminisce and talk in learning that they forgot they were in a bais ovel, and the former RY has no pulpit to expound his ideas.October 19, 2021 10:21 am at 10:21 am #2018415
Or better yet, CS should focus his criticisms on mechalleli Shabbos rather than on Shomer Shabbos.October 19, 2021 10:33 am at 10:33 am #2018438
Common – i hope mechilla was included in there. To your point, I felt your real topic got lost when it shouldn’t have. It is really so crucial and important. I sat shiva 3 times in 5 plus years and B”H never witnessed anything like that. I did develop a sense, tho, of how important it is to be focused on the availing, and how painful it can be for many of the ‘visitors’ who are suffering in their own way from the loss as well.October 19, 2021 10:34 am at 10:34 am #2018442
@UJM, if a shomer shabbos behaves like a idiot I will criticize him and if a mechall shabos behaves like an idiot I will do the sameOctober 19, 2021 10:34 am at 10:34 am #2018433
What is Nuchem Availim?October 19, 2021 11:06 am at 11:06 am #2018471jackkParticipant
I have been an Avel and visited many Beis Avel’s.
A klal gadol is that no two Beis Avel’s are the same.October 19, 2021 11:06 am at 11:06 am #2018469
People sometimes keep their emotions bottled up, so chazal saw a means to be able to release it.October 19, 2021 11:13 am at 11:13 am #2018454FrumWhereParticipant
This is a very intriguing discussion. On the one hand, the complaint that it is childish and immature to feel a need to put down Talmidei Chachomim is quite valid. On the other hand, however, when foolish semi-learned and egoistic people create an atmosphere of embarrassment rather than one of Kovod HaTorah, they should perhaps be called out.
The second scenario presented by CS is unfortunately common, and also not as incriminating as it sounds. Many times very learned leaders of young men (sometimes known as Rosh Yeshivas), especially elderly ones, have convinced themselves, justifiably or not, that they have “something valuable to impart”, no doubt due to the fact that they often do have valuable advice for their young charges, but not necessarily in other situations, like a beis ovel. Their unwelcome verbosity, ergo, often “goes with the territory”, and probably ought to be tolerated in normal situations.
The first story presented, however, can be more problematic, since these “learned” fellows are seemingly violating clear halacha, and perhaps shouldn’t be shown much respect, but it really depends on the context. Let me explain.
A number of years ago, a major out-of-town g’vir lost his wife, and many noted personalities came to the l’vaya. This g’vir was perhaps not from the greatest bnei Torah himself, and many of his friends were also rather uncouth. Right after the seudas havra’ah, the ovel sat down in his living room for the first nichum aveilm, together with some members of his wife’s family. Immediately, in a poorly-orchestrated effort to “cheer him up”, a number of his crass friends started making foolish and inappropriate jokes and remarks, with the ovel himself laughing along with them, which created a very embarrassing situation for his poor father-in-law and brothers-in-law, not to mention the many venerable Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivos in the room. After a few minutes of this, a number of the talmidei chachomim there began quietly conversing among themselves, in effect “tuning out” the un-Torah-like atmosphere around them, and after a short while, they stood up and “spoke 30 seconds to the availim said the posek and left.” Sounds familiar?
Pay attention to the context.October 19, 2021 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #2018487
Nichum availim unites by recognizing that a person is not an island and requires sometimes the help of others.October 19, 2021 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #2018496
@syag, Of course I am mochel, and I hope you afford the same to me when I say something harsh.
@Frumwhere, hardly the case here, it was in a stable chusiver household, it was that these two men felt that the cross conversation was important enough for all to hear even if no one was interestedOctober 19, 2021 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2018504
So, someone just realized that even the most “chashuvah” rabbonim and askanim can sometimes act like jerks? It happens all the time and makes you wonder why they are referenced as “chashuvah” or have other various honorifics imputed to them. I have been to levayahs where the hesped is more about the person giving the hesped than the niftar, shidduchin where the mesader kidushin stumbles over the brachos because he was “mesamach” choson v’kallah before the festivities officially began. That’s life. It happens all to frequently. Not much you can do other than find ways to quietly intervene and lessen the impact of such boorish behavior on the the aveilim, baalei Simcha etc.October 19, 2021 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #2018618
You are an out and out liar. I do not for a moment believe you have seen any of the following occur by people bnei torah call chashuv. Perhaps people of your ilk, who you might consider choshuv (you even call yourself a Gadol! And you are clearly the furthest from that.)
“I have been to levayahs where the hesped is more about the person giving the hesped than the niftar, shidduchin where the mesader kidushin stumbles over the brachos because he was “mesamach” choson v’kallah before the festivities officially began.”October 19, 2021 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2018666
@nist, Unforturantly I can vouch about the ramblings at a levayah, there was the head of chedra kadisha in a certain area who use to be mapid and ramble on about himselfOctober 19, 2021 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #2018681
You’re part of the problem. That’s all I need to say hereOctober 19, 2021 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #2018721
Really? GH continuously makes false allegations about and denigrates bnei torah, talmidei chachomim and upright people, and calling him on his lies is the problem?
Really, Reb Shimon, think this one through.October 19, 2021 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #2018753
Nisht: I promise not to refer to you as a “chashuvah poster”.
And yes, I’ve unfortunately experienced exactly what I described. And no, its no disrespect to the vast majority of rabbonin and askanim who conduct themselves with the utmost sensitivity to the occasion to observe that unfortuantely, as the OP noted, there are as surprising number who don’t. A ben torah (chashuvah or not) can sometimes act like a jerk just as a poishete yid can act with great sensitivity, charm and respect. Hopefully, you will only know from simchas so you will never have to deal with shivahs and aveilim.October 19, 2021 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #2018826Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
GH> ben torah (chashuvah or not) can sometimes act like a jerk
I disagree. There are multiple quotes about Talmidei Chachamim that we can use as a definition of the term, such as T Ch merabim shalom b’olam. That is someone who is not doing that, is not one.
In particular, if you see T’Ch doing averah in the evening, you don’t need to give him tochacha next day, as he surely did teshuva. From this, we see that T’Ch can do an avera, but he will not do it repeatedly or habitually.October 19, 2021 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #2018832
AAQ.. Good points but perhaps its my clumsy use of terminology. A rav or askan may not be “doing an averah” nor will he always be aware that the type of behavior described by common saychel in his OP and others posters may have caused pain or stress to the aveilim (or in the other context, embarrassed baaeli simcha). Neither the OP nor subsequent posters in this thread suggested that this happens on a “regular basis” but this kind of stuff DOES happen. I would imagine that the immediate remedy is generally to focus on providing support and comfort for the aveilim and not to confront or give musar to the offender.October 20, 2021 9:03 am at 9:03 am #2018932
I would refer to my comment above, where I talk about being defined as Choshuv by bnei torah.
I doubt someone who is completely clueless about how two brothers marrying two sisters applies to Maseches Yevamos could possibly be construed as a ben torah. Vda”l.October 20, 2021 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #2019068LostsparkParticipant
This has to be the highest horse ever ridden in the CR.
Common Saychel I’m sure it would be too much of a safer for you to stand in the presence of an elderly gentleman on account he may have committed avieros in his youth.October 20, 2021 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #2019089LostsparkParticipant
*safekOctober 20, 2021 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #2019091
My great grandfather and his brother actually did marry two sisters! 😄 true storyOctober 20, 2021 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #2019124
@lostpark, with all due respect I have no clue what you are sayingOctober 25, 2021 12:44 am at 12:44 am #2020354gildaParticipant
People have a tendency at shiva to ask dumb questions like how long was he sick how long did he take treatments etc. We have to say nice things about the niftar and be sympatheticOctober 25, 2021 1:09 am at 1:09 am #2020386HaLeiViParticipant
@glida, I don’t think there’s anything wrong about speaking of what they’re actually mourning. If you have real insight about this I’ll hear you out, but I’ve stood by, as well as joined, such conversations. That’s actually part of being sympathetic. Can you just sit there and just go hmm phmm?October 25, 2021 1:10 am at 1:10 am #2020379
Gilda: There’s nothing wrong about asking regarding the niftar’s illness.October 25, 2021 6:00 am at 6:00 am #2020400gildaParticipant
I find People are sometimes not comfortable discussing details of the illness. But saying nice things about the person can be a real nechama.October 25, 2021 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2020484
Other times they are very comfortable and happy to discuss the niftar’s illness.October 25, 2021 9:32 am at 9:32 am #2020512
To deal with the loss, we must talk about the circumstances.October 25, 2021 9:34 am at 9:34 am #2020510
Without regards to the names of any particular CR posters, in any of these circumstances, once you arrive “read the room”, get a feel for the mood, the people there at that time, the substance and tone of the ongoing conversation and use COMMON SENSE. Spend a few minutes listening to the conversation before ASKING QUESTIONS or trying to direct the conversation in another direction. As one poster above noted, most important, lead with positive memories of the niftar, and if possible, recall some special anecdote about your personal interaction with him/her that will provide nechama to the aveilim.October 25, 2021 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #2020551
“Read the room”?
There is a reason why halacha is to let the availim start the conversation. You are not going on a marketing visit, that you should need to read the room.October 25, 2021 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #2020565
Use another term but “reading the room” means situational awareness. Both halacha and common sense dictate listening to what the aveilim and others already engaged in conversation are saying before you speak. In some cases there may not be much being said and to break the silence you have to offer your words of nechama with great care and sensitivity to how those words are received.October 26, 2021 1:37 am at 1:37 am #2020715Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
> two sisters applies to Maseches Yevamos could possibly be construed as a ben torah.
It used to be, a talmid chacham was allowed to hide knowledge of learning a particular maseches. Now, it leads to ridicule.
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