Behavior during nuchem availim

Common- can you help me out here? You aren’t 17 nor are you otd. So what’s with the “talmide chachamim” and “rosh yeshiva of a defunct mini yeshiva ” trash? You sound like a disgruntled teenager who needs to make sure to disparage rabbeim maximally when it has nothing to do with your point. What gives? I was 100% sure this was a troll post when I read it and am shocked you could produce this type of waste.

Am I somehow living on an alternate plane where I don’t see bnei Torah constantly involved in abhorrent behavior, while my counterparts in a different plane see it everyday?

Syag, I’ve observed some odd behaviours at shiva houses. A friend and his father were sitting shiva for his mother and shadchanim came to check out the father. Real estate agents came to a friends shiva in Far Rockaway ( with his mother’s passing the house was going to be sold ) and handed out cards. Miahulachim from Israel came to our Rav’s shiva to sign their letters so they could go collecting in the community

Syag, because knowing a lot of Torah or being iluyish doesn’t equate to being a talmid chacham. Anyone can be a rosh yeshiva too. That doesn’t automatically make you chashuv. Some people just want to be rebbish and caught up in the hock with their elite chevrah. That’s their simchas hachaim apparently..

Really, the best thing to do in the beis avel is to shut your mouth unless you pick up a que that the avel wants to hear from you.

Avirah, it’s called illusory superiority. It was very popular in Germany. The maaleh isn’t with you, it’s with CS. He’s able to observe objectively.

Syag, I’m glad I missed the boat. I wouldn’t want to be stuck on it with you! (Jk)

Syag,

As a sign of mechila, CS should cut the 2 Talmiday chochomim and the Rosh Yeshiva some slack also and be dan them lcaf zchus. That is a mitzva min hatorah of being Dan Tzadikim Lcaf zchus.

Or better yet, CS should focus his criticisms on mechalleli Shabbos rather than on Shomer Shabbos.

I have been an Avel and visited many Beis Avel’s.
A klal gadol is that no two Beis Avel’s are the same.

This is a very intriguing discussion. On the one hand, the complaint that it is childish and immature to feel a need to put down Talmidei Chachomim is quite valid. On the other hand, however, when foolish semi-learned and egoistic people create an atmosphere of embarrassment rather than one of Kovod HaTorah, they should perhaps be called out.

The second scenario presented by CS is unfortunately common, and also not as incriminating as it sounds. Many times very learned leaders of young men (sometimes known as Rosh Yeshivas), especially elderly ones, have convinced themselves, justifiably or not, that they have “something valuable to impart”, no doubt due to the fact that they often do have valuable advice for their young charges, but not necessarily in other situations, like a beis ovel. Their unwelcome verbosity, ergo, often “goes with the territory”, and probably ought to be tolerated in normal situations.

The first story presented, however, can be more problematic, since these “learned” fellows are seemingly violating clear halacha, and perhaps shouldn’t be shown much respect, but it really depends on the context. Let me explain.

A number of years ago, a major out-of-town g’vir lost his wife, and many noted personalities came to the l’vaya. This g’vir was perhaps not from the greatest bnei Torah himself, and many of his friends were also rather uncouth. Right after the seudas havra’ah, the ovel sat down in his living room for the first nichum aveilm, together with some members of his wife’s family. Immediately, in a poorly-orchestrated effort to “cheer him up”, a number of his crass friends started making foolish and inappropriate jokes and remarks, with the ovel himself laughing along with them, which created a very embarrassing situation for his poor father-in-law and brothers-in-law, not to mention the many venerable Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivos in the room. After a few minutes of this, a number of the talmidei chachomim there began quietly conversing among themselves, in effect “tuning out” the un-Torah-like atmosphere around them, and after a short while, they stood up and “spoke 30 seconds to the availim said the posek and left.” Sounds familiar?

Pay attention to the context.

GH,

You are an out and out liar. I do not for a moment believe you have seen any of the following occur by people bnei torah call chashuv. Perhaps people of your ilk, who you might consider choshuv (you even call yourself a Gadol! And you are clearly the furthest from that.)

“I have been to levayahs where the hesped is more about the person giving the hesped than the niftar, shidduchin where the mesader kidushin stumbles over the brachos because he was “mesamach” choson v’kallah before the festivities officially began.”

Nisht,

You’re part of the problem. That’s all I need to say here

Nisht: I promise not to refer to you as a “chashuvah poster”.
And yes, I’ve unfortunately experienced exactly what I described. And no, its no disrespect to the vast majority of rabbonin and askanim who conduct themselves with the utmost sensitivity to the occasion to observe that unfortuantely, as the OP noted, there are as surprising number who don’t. A ben torah (chashuvah or not) can sometimes act like a jerk just as a poishete yid can act with great sensitivity, charm and respect. Hopefully, you will only know from simchas so you will never have to deal with shivahs and aveilim.

AAQ.. Good points but perhaps its my clumsy use of terminology. A rav or askan may not be “doing an averah” nor will he always be aware that the type of behavior described by common saychel in his OP and others posters may have caused pain or stress to the aveilim (or in the other context, embarrassed baaeli simcha). Neither the OP nor subsequent posters in this thread suggested that this happens on a “regular basis” but this kind of stuff DOES happen. I would imagine that the immediate remedy is generally to focus on providing support and comfort for the aveilim and not to confront or give musar to the offender.

This has to be the highest horse ever ridden in the CR.

Common Saychel I’m sure it would be too much of a safer for you to stand in the presence of an elderly gentleman on account he may have committed avieros in his youth.

My great grandfather and his brother actually did marry two sisters! 😄 true story

People have a tendency at shiva to ask dumb questions like how long was he sick how long did he take treatments etc. We have to say nice things about the niftar and be sympathetic

Gilda: There’s nothing wrong about asking regarding the niftar’s illness.

Other times they are very comfortable and happy to discuss the niftar’s illness.

Without regards to the names of any particular CR posters, in any of these circumstances, once you arrive “read the room”, get a feel for the mood, the people there at that time, the substance and tone of the ongoing conversation and use COMMON SENSE. Spend a few minutes listening to the conversation before ASKING QUESTIONS or trying to direct the conversation in another direction. As one poster above noted, most important, lead with positive memories of the niftar, and if possible, recall some special anecdote about your personal interaction with him/her that will provide nechama to the aveilim.

Use another term but “reading the room” means situational awareness. Both halacha and common sense dictate listening to what the aveilim and others already engaged in conversation are saying before you speak. In some cases there may not be much being said and to break the silence you have to offer your words of nechama with great care and sensitivity to how those words are received.