August 1, 2022 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #2111009
What will we wish people during the 3 weeks of Bein Hametzarim when Moshiach comes?
[HINT: It is alluded to in the deroshos of the Chasam Sofer]August 2, 2022 12:31 am at 12:31 am #2111165yungermanSParticipant
All 3 weeks will be a time of happiness and serving Hashem with the Bais Hamikdosh rebuilt IYH bkarov….. As soon as we wake up to serious teshuva and Achdus ASAP as one loving nation together and call out to our loving father Hashem wholeheartedly begging for the coming of Mashiach already.
I.e. nothing just happens from just sitting around and davening for something we need to go to the true level of YEARNING for the coming of Mashiach and rebuilding of the 3rd Bais Hamikdosh.August 2, 2022 1:14 am at 1:14 am #2111169
According the Yerushalmi Meshiach comes after the Beis Hamikdash was already rebuilt.August 2, 2022 8:32 am at 8:32 am #2111223commonsaychelParticipant
it stems from going off topic on every threadAugust 2, 2022 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #2111340
Learning from ujm, I apologize if I said anything to hurt you or irritate you.
I understand that your pain is causing you to lash out randomly in every thread about the same one idea (although it’s quite ironic to keep going off topic about going off topic!)
I hope from now on you won’t be irritated by normal conversation, even if it sometimes goes מענין לענין באותו ענין.
מנחם שמוAugust 2, 2022 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #2111341
Reb Eliezer, according to the Rambam the Beis Hamikdash is built after Moshiach wins the wars against the nations and kibbutz goliyos.
(הלכות מלכים פי”א ה”א וה”ד)
Although the Raavad and many others disagree with the Rambam on many of his points in these halachos (for example: השגות הראב”ד הלכות מלכים פי”א ה”ג, פי”ב ה”א), no posek disagrees regarding this point.
The כלל is that whenever the נושאי כלים don’t voice their opinion, it means that they agree with the Rambam (משנה למלך הלכות כלאים פ”ט הי”א. שדי חמד כללי הפוסקים ס”ו סק”א. וש”נ).
RebE, I am sure that you know that we rule like the poskim and not like Gemara Bavli or Yerushalmi.
P.S. Did you find the answer?August 2, 2022 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #2111364commonsaychelParticipant
@menachem, I am not hurt in anyway, just giving an object lesson of how annoying it can get when you keep going off topic instead of plain not responding to a topic that you have zero interest in.
Be well and please try to focus on topic on hand instead preaching on what you want to topic to be.August 3, 2022 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2111585
THE ANSWER IS:
In Yemos Hamoshiach, the Bein Hametzarim greeting will (presumably) be:
“AH GUTTEN MOED!!!”
Chasam Sofer (דרשות לח’ טבת ח”א פז,ב):
אמרו הקדמונים שיהיה י”ז תמוז יו”ט וט’ באב [יו”ט], וכ”א יום שביניהם כמו חול המועד
[When Moshiach comes,] Shiva Asar B’Tammuz and Tisha B’Av will be Yomim Tovim, and the 21 days in between them will be like Chol Hamoed.August 3, 2022 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #2111810
Menachem, look at the Aim Habanim Semacha Perek 3, who brings the Yerushalmi Perek 5 of Maaser Sheni mishna 2 and the Tosfas Yom Tov there paskening like Rebbi Yosi in the mishna quoting the Yerushalmi above. So first we must build the Beis Hamikdash and on top will come the one of fire. The Rambam might be talking if we don’t built it ourselves, then Meshiach will build it. There are two proofs two this. One in Shmonei Esrei, the bracha for building the Beis Hamikdash is before the coming of Meshiach. Two, the coming of the wall of fire which we daven in Nachem on Tisha B’ov says סביב לה, around it, around what? It will come around the one we build ourselves.August 3, 2022 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2111841August 3, 2022 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #2111856
I made a grave error earlier when writing that according to the Rambam kibbutz goliyos is before binyan hamikdash. It was a typo.
The Rambam is clear that Moshiach will build the Mikdash before he gathers the Yidden to Eretz Yisroel (הל’ מלכים פי”א ה”א וה”ד):
המלך המשיח עתיד לעמוד . . בונה מקדש ומקבץ נדחי ישראל . . . ואם יעמוד מלך . . ובנה מקדש במקומו וקיבץ נדחי ישראל הרי זה משיח בודאי
Regarding the brocha in Shmoneh Esrei, this is referring to the complete kingship of Moshiach which is only after he completes his main purposes.
The Rambam clearly holds that the Mikdash must be built by Moshiach himself, because if not it wouldn’t be one of the signs of Moshiach.
What does this have to do with a Beis Hamikdash of fire? Melech Hamoshiach is a physical human being, who, according to the Rambam, will build the Beis Hamikdash physically with his hands. After that, the Beis Hamikdash of fire will descend from heaven.
(ראה ערוך לנר סוכה מא, א ד”ה א”נ)
Thank you for pointing out the Tosfos Yom Tov which I wasn’t aware of.
The Yerushalmi is explained to be referring to the complete kingship of Moshiach which happens after the entire process.
However, from the Tosfos Yom Tov it is indeed implied that the Mikdash will be built before נצח כל האומות שבסביבו, whereas from the Rambam it is clear that it will be built after. וצ”ע
[@common saychel, please excuse me for going off topic]
מנחם שמוAugust 3, 2022 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #2111862
I quoted you a sefer Aim Habanim Semecha, Rav Yisochor Teichtal, Hy’d available to download
at https://hebrewbooks dot org/53692 talking about going to EY to bring Meshiach. The Vayoel Moshe from Satmar Rav ztz’l argues on him.August 3, 2022 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #2111878
The Aim Habanim Semacha holds that redemption will come slowly by putting our effort into it through going to EY and building the Beis Hamikdash and the one of fire will descend on what we build as the עני רוכב על חמור. However, the Minchas Elozor, the Munkacher, Rebbi of the above, holds that it will come spontaneously.August 3, 2022 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #2111885
What does it prove? If the Beis Hamikdash was already built by us, then Meshiach will not have to build it. So he does whatever else is necessary. If he has to build it he is Meshiach and maybe building is the one of fire.August 3, 2022 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #2111890GefilteFishParticipant
You both seem to have looked into this topic well.
I am aware that shitas HaRambam is that the Beis Hamikdash will be built by people (seemingly Moshiach).
And you brought a source to explain how the “beis Hamikdash of fire” will come down after the physical one is built.
What does the Rambam do with the gemara in Sukkah (also rosh Hashana) that Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai forbade eating “chodosh” the entire 16th of Nissan, since there’s a concern that the beis Hamikdosh will have returned and people won’t have found out about it?
The gemara is clear that the beis hamikdosh will come back at night time (or perhaps right before shkiya on the 15th of nissan).
Rashi and Tosfos (and others) point out how the beis hamikdosh will come back at night time, and that’s not a problem since the mitzva to build it during the day only applies to the first batei mikdosh which was built by people; but the third one will come down in fire, and thus can come at night as well.
You’ve explained how the Rambam will learn the medrash about the mikdash of fire; but there’s still the clear issue of rav Yochanan ben Zakkai’s takana.
He is very clear that there’s reason to assume the beis hamikdosh will be present on the 16th of nissan even though there was absolutely no mikdash there when pesach started a day earlier.
This is one of the major sources for those rishonim who argue on the Rambam.
How does he Rambam explain this gemara?
(I’m sure there are mefarshim who address this topic, I just haven’t seen them. You have studied this much more than I have, so maybe you’ve come across the answer?)August 4, 2022 8:27 am at 8:27 am #2111930
The Lubavitcher Rebbe discusses this (חידושים וביאורים בהלכות מלכים סי’ ב, לקוטי שיחות חכ”ז ע’ 191 ואילך), here is a synopsis which I wrote elsewhere:
The Rambam rules that the third Beis Hamikdash will be built (by humans, and specifically) through Moshiach, in order to fulfill the mitzvah of building the Beis Hamikdash. This opinion is also brought in Chazal.
(ראה ירושלמי מגילה פ”א הי”א. פסחים פ”ט ה”א לגי’ המנ”ח מצוה ש”פ. ויק”ר פ”ט, ו. במדב”ר פי”ג, ב)
Others hold that the third Beis Hamikdash was already built in heaven and will descend at the time of Geula.
(רש”י סוכה מא, סע”א. ר”ה ל, סע”א. תוספות סוכה שם. שבועות טו, ב. תנחומא פקודי יא. זח”א כח,א. ועוד)
We can reconcile both opinions in several ways:
1) The physical Beis Hamikdash will be built by Moshiach, and the “spiritual Beis Hamikdash” of fire will descend from heaven and enclothe itself in the physical building. Similar to the fire on the mizbeach which was ignited from a physical flame, and a spiritual flame also descended from above.
(ערוך לנר סוכה שם ד”ה א”נ)
2) The Midrash explains that the gates of the Beis Hamikdash sunk into the ground and were buried in Har Habayis. The third Beis Hamikdash will descend from heaven, and the gates will rise up from the ground, and will be set into place by the Yidden. Halachically, erecting doors is considered erecting the entire structure, so the Yidden will thus fulfill the mitzvah of building the entire Beis Hamikdash.
(איכה ב, ט: “טבעו בארץ שערי'”. במדב”ר פט”ו, יג, ועוד. ב”ב נג, ב)
3) The details of the Beis Hamikdash which are already known to us (from מסכת מדות) will be built by Moshiach. The unknown parts which are described cryptically in nevuas Yechezkel will descend from heaven.
4) If we are worthy of the Geula (“זכו”) – the Beis Hamikdash will descend from heaven. If the Geula comes at its set date without us being worthy (“לא זכו”) – we will have to build the Beis Hamikdash ourselves with Moshiach.
(ע”פ הגמרא בסנהדרין צח, א שבמצב של זכו הגאולה באה באופן נסי, ובמצב של לא זכו באה ע”פ טבע)
The reason why the Rambam only mentions the human aspect of the Beis Hamikdash is because his focus throughout Mishneh Torah is on human behavior (“ספר הלכות”). Additionally, the Rambam only describes the Geula in a “לא זכו” fashion, although it seems that he agrees with the possibility of זכו.
(אגרת תחיית המתים ס”ו: אין דברנו זה החלטי)
@GefilteFish, according to options 2 and 4, the Rambam agrees that the Beis Hamikdash can/will descend from heaven which fits with the Gemara Rosh Hashana.
@Reb Eliezer, I would love to see some input.
מנחם שמוAugust 4, 2022 11:12 am at 11:12 am #2111997
Menachem, look at reply #2111862 above and download the sefer. It describes everything in great detail.August 4, 2022 11:12 am at 11:12 am #2112002August 4, 2022 11:42 am at 11:42 am #2112021
I found a booklet entitled בנין בית המקדש בזמן הזה available to download
at https://hebrewbooks dot org/56873August 4, 2022 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #2112117
I found another sefer עיר הקדש והמקדש from Yehiel Michel Tektzkinski available to download
at https://hebrewbooks dot org/14624August 4, 2022 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #2112184
Thank you for the resources.
I took a look at בנין בית המקדש, I have a lot to say on it, it is VERY one-sided and lots of ideas seem to have big issues, but we’ll leave that for later.August 4, 2022 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #2112187
Another sefer ענייני המקדש והגלות also available to download at https://hebrewbooks dot org/56997August 4, 2022 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #2112224
This last sefer about the galus is good for Tisha B’av.August 4, 2022 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #2112251
The Chasam Sofer explains why the 9th of Av was designated and not the 10th? It says ובאו בה פריצים וחיללה, when the blood shedders went inside, they made it mundane. Once they threw fire to the Beis Hamikdash from the outside, it became a house which was non-sacred any more that was burning making the beginning when they started the burning, the time to commemorate.August 7, 2022 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #2112847☕️coffee addictParticipant
Don’t want to start a new thread and don’t know which thread it should go in so I’m putting it here
I saw on Arutz sheva that Zionism started with n tisha bav
Take what you want out of thatAugust 7, 2022 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #2112879
ca, what does “with n tisha bav” mean? Within Tisha b’av? With no Tisha B’av?August 7, 2022 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #2112906☕️coffee addictParticipant
OnAugust 8, 2022 11:40 am at 11:40 am #2113119
The Midrash says that Meshiach was born on Tisha B’Av.August 8, 2022 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2113201
“Zionism started on Tisha B’Av”
This is a true statement. The REAL Zionism started on Tisha B’Av – the Zionism which undermines the current Zionism.
Since Tisha B’Av, Jews have been imploring from Hashem every day in davening ותחזינה עינינו בשובך לציון ברחמים. Not for some secular government of Jews who call themselves “Zion,” but a true return of Hashem’s shchina to Tziyon with the Geula HO’AMITIS.
When people told the Lubavitcher Rebbe that we have already witnessed the אתחלתא דגאולה with the founding of the “State of Israel”, the Rebbe said that the term אתחלתא דגאולה can already be used about the birth of Moshiach on Tisha B’Av (as RebE pointed out), yet since then is the darkest period for the Jewish people.
לקוטי שיחות ח”ה ע’ 149
ונוסף על הבלבול וכו’ דאתחלתא דגאולה המדוברות בכ”מ בחז”ל שהם ע”ד ההתחלה שהייתה ברגע הראשון שלאחרי חורבן ביהמ”ק וכמפורש באיכ”ר שגעתה פרתו פעם שני’ אמר נולד מושיען וגולן של ישראל ומפרט שמו ועירו כו’ . . ולאחרי אתחלתא זו – התחיל מר הגלות ר”לAugust 8, 2022 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2113216Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Menachem, agree, I know a haredi Rav who interacts frequently with non-observant Jews and when asked “are you a Zionists”, he answers – “yes, as in ‘hamehazir shechinato l’zion’ “. That is, he does not want to be negative on the idea, just does not support specific implementation.
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