Being able to Fargin; Nature or Nurture?

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  • #620004

    favish
    Member

    to cantoresg… page3..and the archeologists statements is as valid ‘ k’moshe mipi hagvurah’?, are these the kind of people that you rely on ‘historical truths’?(remember article ‘charedi weeklies’ may 3, 08?, wont go searching again so kinly cantor esq..have always ready at your fingertips, because we are not going to let anyone forget about your anti ‘myth bearing, revisionist ‘ rabbis which was and is tzaddikai gedolai oilom..) so what shmutz archeologists say, is hitorical truths, but what, lets say , the wholy tzadik, einikel of the chasam soifer writes in ‘chut hamshilesh’ is mythbearing, now we got you more into your net, ‘bor kurh vyachpereihu, vayipol beshacas yifol…tehilem 4-5 (?0

    #620005

    cantoresq
    Member

    Nameless I imply nothing and stand by what I said. I don’t believe, not for a second that was a girl who lay in a coma for 73 or 37 years whose bpdy did not decompose after she died. I do not believe that R. Chaim Kanievsky gets involved in fairy tales.

    But something else occured to me last night. According to those who believe this silliness, please explain why the girl merited such a fate? While it is true she was never jealous, given her circumstances, why is that such a big deal? After all she was in a coma and not a position to ever be jealous. Also, let’s not forget, she never davened, never made a bracha on food, was never mechabedet her parents, never married and and had children etc. Those of you who place such great stock in this nonsense, please explain that to me.

    #620006

    tzippi
    Member

    Back to the original question: yes, we definitely should fargin.

    #620007

    nameless
    Member

    ‘Nameless I imply nothing ,,,,,,,

    THATS A COP OUT SIR!!! Yes ITS obvious that you are INDEED implying that you have more intelligence and are less gullible than people who are in a higher position of Torah authority than you are,

    So the problem is not with this story, its with your lack of belief in general,

    ”But something else occured to me last night. ‘

    I see this issue is really sitting on your mind sir. For someone who deems this a fairy tale, I must say you are quite occupied with it; Do you obsess with ‘Sleeping Beuty and Cindarella as well?

    The girl was fine till she was 17 years old and had ^plenty of oppertunity to envy

    others.

    As far as the second part of your question is concderned, I plead the fifth, Never claimed to play G-d and still dont!

    #620008

    anon for this
    Participant

    Why does one need to believe this story about in order to understand the importance of not being jealous of others? I, like several other posters, believe that it’s likely that the Rebbetzin was somehow mistaken in her information (although I don’t believe she is C”V trying to mislead anyone), but the fact that this story can’t be verified by outside sources doesn’t negate the importance of this particular midah.

    #620009

    Joseph
    Participant

    “I plead the fifth”

    nameless,

    I must rule you out of order! In Europe you enjoy no 5th Amendment constitutional protections. This is a right enjoyed by Americans, per our Constitution. (You are always welcome to return to your native homeland if you so desire such rights…)

    #620010

    nameless
    Member

    Anon for this;

    Assuming the Rebetzin was somehow mistaken in her info and implying that the whole thing is a Fairy tale plus denying that Tzaddikim dont decompose, are two totally differnet things!

    #620011

    lammed hey
    Member

    Don’t believe anything unless you hear it from that person’s mouth (unless it it lashon hara, which then who knows!)

    Jealousy is bad. (LO S’ACHMOD! 🙂

    #620012

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    to think big, I did not recall writng anything negative in any posting about “why yidden are best’ and so I went back and read your posting and the indication about the words that were written by me. And, you know what, I do indeed have to ask mechilleh from the people I have insulted. As they say in hilchos teshuvo, “kechatuo kein teshuvuso”, as I sinned on this website, I have to ask mechillah and make teshuvah on this website.

    I retract my terms about the litvishe oilam, especially the words about “sonei yisroel”. (I do not remember writing it, but I’ll take your word for it.)That truly is impardonable. I will retract my other words about them too,which I will not mention again.

    I will stick to my determination not to call people any kind of names. Again, I will aks mechillah on this website from people I have insulted.It was done in a intemperate moment and I deeply feel sorry for it.

    However, this is does NOT mean that I agree with their ‘shittos” or with their approach to yiddishkeit and their attitude to other Yidden. Indeed, I believe that some of their shittos are totally wrong, whether it has to do with Eretz Yisroel, or the imposition of a new concept of “emunas chachomim”, which never existed. See the comment by nameless about questioning the words of a godol bordering on heresy. This is so far off the reservation because it puts about 99.99% of the Yidden in the “heresy” camp. After all, there are always different views on every matter.Which of the two Satmarer camps is the “koifer”? Which of the various camps in yeshivas ponevez is the heretic one? You can see how this becomes totally preposterous,if applied to its ultimat absurdity..

    IY”H, I will restrict my comments to debating the issue and not calling anyone

    names. A start to Elul…

    As far as the story of the coma….Did Rav Kanievsky SAY that there was a seventy year coma? Or DID he just say that the reason why the body was not decomposed was because of the reason quoted? After all of the dozens of postings on this, we still don’t know that. And, additonally, pray tell me, do I have to believe in Rav Kaniesky’s every word? In other words, are R’Chaim kanievsky’s words infallible? You have to tell me that because this is the crux of the issue throughout many of these postings. What indeed, are we obliged to believe. And, remember, whatever you will answer, you will also have to tell me why the words of Rav Kook ,for example, are less reliable that the Chazon Ish, or why the words of the Lubavticher Rebbe are less athoritative than Rav Shach’s.

    Concerning jeshuos from zaddikim. Of course, when something unusual happens, you may consider it a ness. I do firmly beleive that EVERYTHING is min hashomaim, so, of course, anything that happens to someone , regardless of who interceded, can be qualified as a ness. What I have said consistently, is, that “nissim geluim” (like Kerias Yam Suf) only happened once in our history. From time to time, during the neviim, for example,there may have been individual nissim ,bu ,in general, it is the Jad hashem “benister” that guides us today.

    IF the story of the 73-year coma would have been WITNESSED by someone reliable, then, you could say that this was indeed a nes by itself, albeit a nes shebenistar, because it is, after all, POSSIBLE to have a long coma.

    The problem with this story is that is is just that, a story, and none actually confirmed this. Hence ,it remains a story and nothing more ( I will never call it a fiary tale again, out of respect)

    There are hundreds of stories about Chassidishe rebbes and nissim. Pray tell me, do YOU believe in all of them? Or does your “emunah’ stop at R’Chaim kanievsky shelita?

    I am not sure what your question about miracles is. Hakodesh Boruch does indeed mke miracles. My point was that, just because “nameless” believes it doesn’t mean that it must be.

    #620013

    squeak
    Participant

    If I may, I’d like to point out that the two sides of argument about the Guiness Book of World Records are one and the same. No, Guiness does not record Choni Ham’agel or Krias Yam Suf or Og Melech Haboshon, etc. That is because it has criteria for what events are recorded. Those criteria protect the integrity of the information contained in the book. Robert Wadlow (at nearly 9 feet) is the world’s tallest man ON RECORD. There is no dispute even amongst the staff of Guiness that these records may have been exceeded at some point in time but such an occurance never took place in accordance with their criteria.

    When you hear on the news that today’s temperature is a “record high”, do you start calling the newscaster a “koifer” because the mai mabul were boiling hot and the temperature was likely over 200 degrees at that time? No, because you understand that the “record” is just that – a database of recorded information. Temperatures before a certain date were not recorded and are therefore not included in the record.

    If an individual had been kept alive in a coma for 73 years IN RECENT HISTORY, it is very unlikely that it would not be recorded. Let me put that another way. If you want to tell a story that happened in the last hundred years or so, you’d better make sure that credible facts back it up. Of course, the story could have happened 500 years ago, but then earlier Gedolim could have remarked on it.

    #620014

    amusedreader
    Participant

    I am assuming this won’t be posted because the last time I wrote this, it was not: IT IS TIME TO SHUT DOWN THIS ABOMINABLE COFFEE ROOM. There is nothing wrong with healthy civil debate but what occurs on this website borders on rishus. The namecalling and vitriol is unbecoming a website that purports to be Yeshivish!

    #620015

    tzippi
    Member

    Oops. I see I didn’t respond to the original question. But I think a study of all the responses here may well answer the question of whether fargining is in someone’s nature or must be learned…

    #620016

    cantoresq
    Member

    ”But something else occured to me last night. ‘

    I see this issue is really sitting on your mind sir. For someone who deems this a fairy tale, I must say you are quite occupied with it; Do you obsess with ‘Sleeping Beuty and Cindarella as well?

    The girl was fine till she was 17 years old and had ^plenty of oppertunity to envy

    others.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Oh no no no my friend. The decades long coma was central to this bubba maise. The clear message was that in light of her coma, she never experienced envy and therefore her body did not decompose after death. (BTW how did R. Kanievsky know this girl was never envious?) Don’t change the facts simply becuase they might now work against you.

    #620017

    Think BIG
    Member

    I agree with anon, and more so, why do you feel it necessary to focus on the part that you don’t like, rather than on the moral of the story. You remind me of a child who, after you tell them an inspiring story with an inspiring message, asks a dumb question on a minor detail of the story. Or they ask, is it true? You missed the point!

    Except you are not a child- and missing the point, or trying to shift focus away from it is pretty sad.

    #620018

    mosherose
    Member

    “So, if someone doesn’t believe that a girl sat in a coma for 73 years that makes her a kofer? Gee, I wasn’t aware that that was one of the ikkarei emunah.”

    No, you’re a koifer because of all the rotten things you write on your blog. You belittle the chachamim, you mock the torah and you pretend that you’re an erliche yid when, in reality, Sam Berger, you are a menuval and a koifer. The fact that you don’t believe the story when it told over by a reliable source is just confirms your kefirah.

    #620020

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I must add a few lines to me posting about nissim geluim….In the bais hamikdosh, there were also nissim geluim (see chanukkah) but again, these are few and very far in bewteen. In the general sense, we live now in the “oilam hanistor”, until the geulah shleimah, and till then, the ways of the world are guided in a hidden manner.

    #620021

    nameless
    Member

    cantoresque says;

    ‘(BTW how did R. Kanievsky know this girl was never envious?) Don’t change the facts simply becuase they might now work against you.’

    LOL! Sir, NOTHING you say can work against me , I think that should be obvious at this point. Btw Sir, I’m curious, the High Holidays are approaching, what type of Congregation would have an individual like you fill the ir position as Chazzan? I dont mean any disrespect sir, but do you think if they read your posts , (especially your last question regarding how R Kanievsky knew she was never jealous)they would BESTOW UPON YOU the honour of leading their congregants at the most sacred time of the year?

    Amusedreader,

    Please direct your anger at those who clearly belittle and mock Gedolim and their followers,

    #620022

    Think BIG
    Member

    Mosherose, though I don’t agree with the wolf’s comments either, I don’t think it’s right to expose the real name behind the post. We are all (most of us) anonymous, and it just isn’t fair or ethical, and probably violates halachah to do so. Don’t repay a wrong with a wrong of your own. Does anyone agree with me?

    Cantoresq:

    I don’t know why I’m bothering to rubut your post (certainly not because i think I will succeed in changing your point of view, because i doubt anything anybody here says will be heard by you.) But maybe in case someone else on this public forum will be infected by your words, I will give a my point of view to consider.

    You ask why she deserved the fate she did if she never fargined anyone? As Nameless said, We are not G-d and we have no way of knowing his cheshbonos. She may have been a very high soul who came into this world for a specific purpose and this was the way to fulfill it. As to your question of why her body did not decompose for not being jealous if she anyways could not feel jealousy, so why was she rewarded for it?: I think that is an excellent and intelligent question.

    Again, as I said on the smoking blog, Yiddishkeit is not averse to questions, as long as they come from a sincere place and not from a knocking one. I don’t pretend to know the answer, and I can’t even say I believe the story without a doubt (Jews by nature are more sceptical than gullible) as unfortunately many stories make their rounds which turn out to be false or misconstrued. (But I still appreciate the message, regardless whether the story was true)

    However, I’d like to propose an answer to your question, just for the sake of learning. We have a precedent in the torah for Hashem rewarding someone for something even if they were not in the position to do otherwise.

    When Yaakov Avinu met up with his brother Eisav Harasha after many years, it says that all the shevatim bowed down to Eisav. Many years later, The first king of Yisroel was Shaul, who descended from Binyamin. The question is asked: why specifically from Binyamin ?(Yehuda was not going to receive it at first because the Hashem was not happy with how the request for king was made…See Shmuel Perek 10) One of the answers given is that since all the other shevatim bowed down to the rasha Eisav, except for Binyamin. Why not? BECAUSE HE WAS NOT YET BORN. Here we have another case where Hashem rewarded someone for something even though he was not in a position to do otherwise. How can we mortals try to Fathom Hashem’s Mind?

    Nameless, this one’s for you:

    You originally posted this story in an effort to raise awareness about jealousy. The whole thing got sidetracked because people would not take a message from a bogus (in their estimation) story.

    I give you a challenge I hope you’ll be able to acheive. I challenge you to contact the speaker (I’m sure it shouldn’t be too hard) and try to verify the story and its details. Then get back to us with your results. Deal?

    #620023

    nameless
    Member

    Jos’

    Thanks, I’ll take you up on that offer in the near future!

    #620024

    nameless
    Member

    Moshe rose,

    WHO IS SAM BERGER? I see no one on this blog with that name,,,,

    #620025

    Think BIG
    Member

    To Rabbi of Berlin,

    I must say that I take my hat off to you for admitting AND apologizing for your negative words on this blog. KOL HAKAVOD TO YOU. That shows a sign of greatness (in my opinion), and it’s something we should ALL learn from. I have a newfound respect for you. I for one am moichel you for having insulted me (my way of life) but I only speak for myself.

    To be perfectly honest, though the two quotes I posted were comments made by you, the term “Sonei Yisroel” I did not see on the site, (I did not go back and read all your comments, just those two.) Rather, if you are the person i think you are, and you sure sound like it, it is a term I heard from your own mouth recently, along with “elitist”. If you do not live in mOnsey then I have the wrong person and I apologize for being Choshed biksherim. But that’s where that came from.

    Now I would like to comment on the rest of your post:

    You claim that emunas chachamim is a new consept , you imply -invented by the litvish people. I am not a talmid chacham, but I can think of one early commentator (pre-Lita) who wrote that when we look to our chachamim and listen to their words it is like someone in a garden maze looking to the guy in the middle for direction. The man in the middle has already completed the maze and from his high vantage point can see where you’re lost and can direct you. (see intro to mesilas yesharim, I may not have repeated it accurately, but its to the best of my recollection. The Ramchal is certainly great enough and enough accepted, I’m sure evn by you. Perhaps other people can bring other proofs.

    However, I am surprised at you, Rabbi of Berlin, Chassid at heart: The concept of Emunas Chachamim is very strong by chassidim, perhaps even stronger than by Litvaks. By chassidim the idea of following the Rebbes directive blindly is part and parcel of almost every story.

    Second,I agree it was out of line to call you a Koifer (though I suspect she was not the first one), and I agree that insulting someone is just an insult and never okay, but she didnt call you that because you don’t believe this story. Rather it was a general disbelief of many beliefs that form classic Jewish thought that get bandied about on this blog, which you and others have mocked.

    By bringing in the split in Satmar and other camps, you display ignorance about the concept of emunas Chachamim. A chacham is a Gadol of Klal Yisroel who guide us in every area in life. When he exhorts us to do Teshuva in a certain area, we trust he is a messenger from Hashem, as cose as we can get to Nevua today, which is not existant today. Also, we can apply kenei l’cha Rav, where we ask Daas Torah from a wise and Knowledgeable Torah Scholar to direct us, and then we follow his advise, even though it sometimes doent make 100% sense to us. Chassidic tales (fairy tales too?)are replete with cases in which the Rebbe said or did something incomprehensible, but the one who trusted gained in the end.

    you write, ” And, additonally, pray tell me, do I have to believe in Rav Kaniesky’s every word? In other words, are R’Chaim kanievsky’s words infallible?”

    No, you don’t have to. Hopefully, you have your own Tzaddik that you follow. However, those that hold Rav Kanieveski to be the gadol Hador do believe every word he says. Yes, he is fallable, but his “fallacies” would be my mitzvos. As Chazal say, “Yiftach bedoro keShmuel bedoro”

    The words of Rav Kook are to the Mizrachim as the words of the Lubavitcher Rebbe are to the Lubavitchers as the words of the Satmar rebbe are to the satmars. No Layman should put down a spiritual leader in front of ones followers, ever. If a Gadol says that the shita of the other “Rebbe” is wrong, I can not fully understand that, but I trust it is Lesheim shamayim. all of the Besh”t’s talmidim who eventually became Rebbes had different tracks in avodas hashem which conflicted with the other.

    I agree wholeheartedly that open nissim do not generally happen today. everything is cloaked in teva. But cannot this story be explained by Teva too? It is not SO unusual to find weird quirks of nature. Several years ago I heard on the (secular) radio about a woman somewhere in England I think who had a baby aborted. She felt unwell and the doctors discovered a dead fetus. The fetus was in her womb for 35 years. The lady was over 70 years old. weird. Do I believe it? I dont know. But there are enough weird happeneings in the GUNISS BOOK to prove it.

    I will respond to the rest of your post soon cuz i have to go now.

    #620026

    Will Hill
    Participant

    mosherose, Is Wolfish Mr. Berger?

    #620027

    favish
    Member

    to amued reader page..4 very easy way to shut down this coffee room l’gabay your problem, just dont log on to it and ‘puff’ the problem is solved…oi, mir wish we can solve our problems so simply…

    #620028

    Think BIG
    Member

    Rabbi of Berlin, to continue my comments on your letter:

    Whether Rabbi Kanievski Shli”ta related the story or just commented on the story is really immaterial. If he commented on it, desn’t it imply that he believed it? (again, IF he in fact commented on it,as I have said before, it is an unfortunate fact that people misquote Gedolim and sometimes make up stories about them) But if we asssume he did comment on it, it follows that he believed the story from a reliable source, in which case I believe it too, since I don’t consider myself more saavy than him. But if you don’t hold Rav Kanievski to that esteem, that is your perogative.

    The next part in which you explain the nes nistar versus galui is exactly what I wrote in my previous text, so we are on the same page about that. So, in effect, you believe this “fairy tale” COULD have happened because it is after all possible, though very improbable. I couldn’t agree more. The only reason why I tend to give just a bit more credence to it is because it was said over in the name of Rav Kanievski, and it can be verified. In fact in a previous post I challenged Nameless, on behalf of all of us here in the coffee room, to research the story. Now that she sent us on this wild ride, she owes it to us to make up for it by backing up her story with the facts.

    You asked me if I believe in all the chassidishe mayselach: I have two answers:

    1. Chassidim themselves will tell you that many of their stories are made up/exagerated, etc, or they are not clear who it actually happened to. Since storytelling was a major focus by the early chassidim, its hard to know for sure what is true and what isn’t. So, I enjoy the stories and try to learn from them what I could, but I usually take them with a grain of salt, especially if they sound too fanciful. (I know someone who feels that telling children a chassidish meysah is worse than telling them snow white and the seven dwarfs, because you are teaching them sheker cloaked in emes, whereas with snow white, the children can clearly see it is a fairy tale. But that is just one persons view)

    2. As far as I understand, the point of a story is for the lesson it teaches. That’s why the source, details, who it happened to,etc. are really secondary to the point. (Of course, if you have a penchant for only telling over 100% true stories you might want to stay away from stories that are not verifiable.) So if I heard a beautiful story but cannot remember or verify the details, I may repeat it. Though personally, I do like to stick to stories I know to be true.

    As far as my emuna stopping at R’ Kanievski, I have often thought of an interesting phenomenon which is that on average, chassidish stories usually involve a “nes”, which you need to believe. Non- chassidic stories about Litvish-style gedolim usually involve a point of midos or emuna that we could learn from. I prefer the latter.

    To end, there is a famous story with one of the Brisker Gedolim, which I won’t repeat bec dont know all the details, but the basic point was that he told his talmidim not to be impressed with “mofsim”. Mofsim anyone can do, and he proceeded to do one right then and there. He told them, that is not what should impress you. Serving Hashem, learning Torah is the ikar.

    Have a great night.

    #620029

    kapusta
    Participant

    i dont think i’ve ever seen a “conversation” which is so off topic being discussed, if u want to, believe it, if not not but y am i interested its ur life, and its ur business, the original topic was about being able to fargin which obviously (i totally agree with tzippi on this) is something that needs to be worked on, the topic was a good one and i might add a much better one and more important than the so called “issue” being discussed here.

    P.S. i’m wondering if a topic should be started about how people can comment about night when the issue is day…

    #620030

    nameless
    Member

    Think Big,

    I would love to do it, and I will try my best because the speaker left to Israel about a week ago and I dont have her contact number.

    However, if you like you can leave your email with YW editor and I will have them pass over any details when I get them. I REFUSE WHOLEHEARTEDLY to post them on this blog, because I will not submit to people who will probably deny the story no matter how reliable the evidence might be!

    You can take the information I plan to get and do wh

    #620031

    nameless
    Member

    You can take the information I hope to get and do what you want with it.

    #620032

    nameless
    Member

    Think Big says;

    ‘Now that she sent us on this wild ride, she owes it to us to make up for it by backing up her story with the facts.’

    I just noticed that comment now, I dont think I ‘owe’ ANYONE an iota more than another blogger who gives an opinion, or shares an experience with us whatever the case.

    ‘Wild ride’???

    Frankly I dont wish you anything worst. As KAPUSTA said, the base of this topic was the issue of jealousy, The only ones who started this roller coaster ride

    were those who doubt in general and the ones who are skeptical on other blogs as well.

    I think I already established that the absence of this event in the GB OF RECORDS, is certainly not a prOof that it didnt happen.

    The Chazzan blatantly doubts that Tzddikim do not remain in

    tact, when we know for a fact thats not the case.

    Maybe you should challenge THEM to prove their Emunahs Chachomim in general!

    Please dont pick on the Believer!

    #620033

    cantoresq
    Member

    Think big writes:

    Cantoresq:

    I don’t know why I’m bothering to rubut your post (certainly not because i think I will succeed in changing your point of view, because i doubt anything anybody here says will be heard by you.) But maybe in case someone else on this public forum will be infected by your words, I will give a my point of view to consider.

    You ask why she deserved the fate she did if she never fargined anyone? As Nameless said, We are not G-d and we have no way of knowing his cheshbonos.

    I RESPOND:

    Indeed we are not G-d and cannot fully understand His ways. But I’m sure if anyone ever asked him, R. Chaim Kanievsky would say the same about himself. Since we can’t presume to know G-d’s ways, I am against stories such as the one under discussion. They reduce the level of contemplation of the Divine to child’s play. Such drivel may have a pedagogic value when teaching seven and eight year olds, but they have no place in adult religious introspection.

    This Big continues:

    She may have been a very high soul who came into this world for a specific purpose and this was the way to fulfill it.

    I Responde:

    But we have no way of knowing that do we?

    TB CONT.

    As to your question of why her body did not decompose for not being jealous if she anyways could not feel jealousy, so why was she rewarded for it?: I think that is an excellent and intelligent question.

    Again, as I said on the smoking blog, Yiddishkeit is not averse to questions, as long as they come from a sincere place and not from a knocking one. I don’t pretend to know the answer, and I can’t even say I believe the story without a doubt (Jews by nature are more sceptical than gullible) as unfortunately many stories make their rounds which turn out to be false or misconstrued. (But I still appreciate the message, regardless whether the story was true)

    However, I’d like to propose an answer to your question, just for the sake of learning. We have a precedent in the torah for Hashem rewarding someone for something even if they were not in the position to do otherwise.

    When Yaakov Avinu met up with his brother Eisav Harasha after many years, it says that all the shevatim bowed down to Eisav. Many years later, The first king of Yisroel was Shaul, who descended from Binyamin. The question is asked: why specifically from Binyamin ?(Yehuda was not going to receive it at first because the Hashem was not happy with how the request for king was made…See Shmuel Perek 10) One of the answers given is that since all the other shevatim bowed down to the rasha Eisav, except for Binyamin. Why not? BECAUSE HE WAS NOT YET BORN. Here we have another case where Hashem rewarded someone for something even though he was not in a position to do otherwise. How can we mortals try to Fathom Hashem’s Mind?

    I Respond:

    Forgive me, but it’s one thing when chazal make that point, and quite another when a rebbetzin does so. But your answer does address an interesting theololgical difficulty; the flip side of theodicy, [seemingly] capricious Divine grace.

    #620035

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Well, Think Big, you wrote two long answers to my posting. Thank you for your compliments but I must tell you that ,great, I am absolutely not. I do, however, feel, that civility in a debate is a must. The greatest zaddikim were always civil to everyone. R’Moshe Feinstein zz’l (to choose a litvishe godol) NEVER said a bad word about anyone. Check his teshuvos. Even when he excoriates other so-called “movements”, he couches it in moderate terms. My own rebbe,zol gezund zein, never says a bad word about people who do not go in the same ‘derech”. For example, I suspect he is not exactly a Zionist,as I may be(see other discussions),but I have never heard him say anything negative ,in a political sense, about the tzionim. So, let us heed the mmamar”divrei chachomim benachas nishmoim”.

    As far as the comments you mentioned, if you “heard’ these words from me , then I know the occasion when it happened. I truly am pained about the words ‘sonei yisroel”. That one gives me palpitations because it was a throw-away line and I should never,never have used it. Al zeh, ani bochioh. The other term (elitist) we can argue about, but I will not use it again.

    Concerning stories of all kind and the chassidische maasses,you are absolutley correct in saying that any story CAN happen,including the story of the coma.You may be familiar with the saying that anyone who believes that all the rebbeshe maasses actually happened is a “tipesh”. BUT anyone who says that they CANNOT happen, is an “apikorus”. In other words, the potential of a nes is always there, but it does not mean that it happens all the time. Hence, I do believe that Rav Kanievsky shelita said what he said about the non-decomposed state of the body, because that you can easily check if true or not. However, the story about the long coma has to be verified before accepting it. If it is verified, absolutely, I will believe it.

    By the way, I can attest that I actually know of a coma of 35 years in my own community. On that, I can give chapter,name and verse. So, long comas can happen.

    Well, I do have a day job to which I have to attend, so for now, I’ll have to postpone the discussion about emunas chachomim for another time.

    Incidentally, if you live in Lakewood ( I think), then we are familiar with each other. A kleine velt.

    #620036

    guesswho
    Member

    It is too bad that we do not know who cared for this lady for 70 years. The Golubcheks would have transferred their father, instead of keeping in a hospital where all the doctors wanted to kill him. It is amazing that they had technology to keep her alive so many years ago. Please publicize the facts to help future patients.

    It is a known fact that R’ Chayim is frequently misquoted. However, he answers his ‘snail’ mail. So write and ask him if he ever heard such a story. He definitely did not read it on line…. It is not apikorsus to believe that gedolim are often misquoted. It may be apikorsus to believe everything that is said in their name.

    #620037

    Think BIG
    Member

    nameless, Im so sorry you took offense. my line about the wild goose chase was said toungue in cheek and i did not mean anything personal by it at all. And you’re right that those that decided to proclaim that the story was false went off target. Perhaps we should all be more careful that when we quote someone or something we should be able to give clear verification. I myself have been guilty of quoting things without remembering the source exactly.

    Also, i cannot give you my email address bec. believe it or not, I dont own a computer. i am on vacation now where I have lots of time and access and will be leaving the scene shortly.

    So, if you can verify the story for everyone else good. if not, forget it.

    #620038

    Think BIG
    Member

    Sorry Rabbi of Berlin, I don’t live in Lakewood. perhaps you are remembering a different conversation. Or you think i’m someone else because there were several people in the room when the conversation took place. But yes, a kleina velt. your “Rabbi of Berlin ” gives you away though.

    #620039

    Will Hill
    Participant

    Nu Think BIG, Spill your beans! Which Berliner do you think he is? (You mentioned something about Monsey…)

    Also, people are waiting for your teretz in the MITZVAH TANTZ thread Think BIG.

    #620040

    mosherose
    Member

    “mosherose, Is Wolfish Mr. Berger?”

    Yes. Sam Berger is the author of WolfishMusings.

    #620041

    Think BIG
    Member

    Will Hill:

    I do not intend to spill the beans on Berlin. If he wants to stay anonymous, that is his perogative. In fact I regret mentioning that i know him, and i hope he is not angry at me for it. (i mentioned somewhere else to mosherose that i think it unethical to expose the name of any poster if he wishes to remain anonymous)

    I answered on the mitzva tanz thread.

    Rabbi of Berlin: I dont know if you are upset with me that I quoted you saying something in person, when this is a public blog. If You are, I am really sorry. in any case, i must ask you for mechila. I was not fair. I had assumed that it was a term you used alot, together with elitist, (because it sounded like that to me) and i did not want to go searching for an actual quote where you wrote it. But obviously it is not, since as you say it gives you heart palpitations that you said it, and you were able to zero in on the conversation (you think). Please be moichel me. If you want me to call you, i will.

    #620042

    nameless
    Member

    Think Big,

    No prob’, I’ll try my best.

    Now can we please go back to the original topic?

    #620043

    favish
    Member

    to those who dont believe in the concept of body persavation for those who merit it see dvorim 34..pasik 7 rashi ‘v’lo nos leicho’ shelo sholta bo rikvon’..we already mentioned’ in ‘sepiray chasidim’ by hurav zevin z’l brings few stories about such..have a close freind who was told by his close relative that he accompanied the holy ‘igros moshe’ body to e’y and was there at the ‘baerdigung’ and told him (to my friend) that heilige guf was as fresh as b’shass petire, in other words didnt have any simonim of rikvon hagif one usually has after a few days .(that person is oisek in these things)

    #620044

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    think big, Thanks for your observation.I only said that statement once in my life and, indeed, there were a few other people present. Will hill, do you live in monsey? it s a big place….though….

    #620045

    nameless
    Member

    The Nazis wanted to dxacavate the body of Rebbe Reb Elimelech, and his body too was in tact, they say it was EVEN a little moist, still from the Tahara…

    #620046

    Think BIG
    Member

    Rabbi of berlin, you didnt answer, are you moichel me?

    #620047

    Think BIG
    Member

    Nameless, i think you may have to start a new thread if you want to talk about farginning and jealousy. This thread evolved into “do we believe in “supernatural” stories.(the expensive vacations thread is getting into that a little. Maybe take the discussiomn there)

    #620048

    Will Hill
    Participant

    rabbi: I used to live there. You still live there?

    Think BIG,: I notice you quoted rabbiofberlin from comments he made months ago on this site. You googled them or how did you find all those juicy tidbits?

    #620049

    amusedreader
    Participant

    jent1150 forgive me for not responding to your comment earlier but I do not spend 24/7 reading and writing in the coffee room. It is my intention to limit my reading of the comments written with the intention of stopping. But that doesn’t “poof solve the problem” as you so put it. The problem is the “miyusdike” rhetoric that is bandied about and will continue to be bandied about whether I read it or not. The fact that members of klal yosroel can behave in such a disrespectful manner to their fellow jew is very distressing and is preventing the coming of Moshiach for ALL of klal yisroel, not just those individuals who read and write this trash.

    #620050

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    to think BIG…no need for mechillah, and if you want it, mochul lecho, mochul lecho,mochul lechu. This is an anonymous website and it is a fluke that you realized who I am. Nothing wrong in that, as I am pretty open about my shittos on Eretz ysroel, (less)chumros, emunas chachomim in modern times, so no need for hiding. Actually, I truly must thank YOU for bringing up the matter of name-calling. As I said in an earlier post, I truly am beating myself up for the term “sonei yisroel”. THis is and will always be an impardonable offense. EVERY good Yid is an oihev yisroel. Satmar – to whose philosophy I do not suscribe- has the most wonderful bikur cholim in the world. I have heard from many non-frum people how this has impressed them and helped them. Chabad- whom I like but is under attack by others- does unbelievable things throughout the world. The hesder yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel – regardless whether you suscirbe to zionism or not – have been at the forefront of defending Klal Yisroel with their bodies and sometimes- sadly- with their lifes.

    So, I accept everyone, from so-called far-right to moderate left. The only people I will reject are the ones who are “noisen jad’ to our enemies, whether from the right (thank G-d, few) to the left, people who will bend over to accomodate our enemies. Everyone else, I welcome with open arms.Incidentally, that approach I have learned from such disparate people as my chassidische rebbe, who welcomes everyone to our shul, to the great R’Shlomo Carlebach, who was the oihev ysroel par excellence, if sometimes to excess, to the legendary Rav Grossman of Migdal Haemek, a true zaddik in our time. And, ultimately, this is our dor’s duty- to open our hearts to all. The great baal teshuvah movement in recent times is fully based on that concept and, boruch hashem, I think we are winning.

    #620051

    Think BIG
    Member

    Will Hill, you sure are nosy! Let me tell you one thing about Rabbi of Berlin:

    He happens to have some very outstanding, yeshivish (litvish style) children, including one metzuyan who is in Shidduchim. Would you believe that?

    #620052

    ujm
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin,

    What kind of Rabbi are you? Pulpit? Or did you just use the title as a nice screen name??

    Also, r u from the TIDE school of thought (as in kaj)? Is that what the Berlin (i.e. Yekkish) signifies?

    #620053

    Joseph
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin: What is your son looking for? Maybe we can “chip in” this gevaldike inyan.

    #620054

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    ujm, in brief, I am not from the TIDE school of thought ( I have no idea what TIDE means)and neither am I a member, old or new, of Kehillat Jeshurun. My own view on things is rather eclectic,chassidisch yet pro-zionist, yeshivish yet opposed to universal kollel, deeply understanding of mesoirah yet an ardent lover of Shlomo Carlebach…you see the picture…I did have a pulpit in Berlin some years ago. Hope this satisfies your curiosity.

    Think Big, you make me blush, but thank you. My sons are truly metzuyonim and, regardless of my views, I am absolutely their proudest father.(My oldest is in Mir for six years now and, if G-d wills it, a future moreh beyisroel-but don’t tell him that!)

    Incidentally, they both wear “gartlech” in honor of my father who gave it to them.My father, alov hashalom, was a big chossid and gave them these gartlech.

    #620055

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    OY, Hakodesh Boruch hu is great! All of a sudden,Joseph and I are best friends ! well,not quite but if you know of a wonderful mishpacha and a wonderful girl ,with jechoilos, let me know! In all seriousness, this particular boy that think big mentioned is an outstansding masmid and a baal chessed. When I asked him, why does he want to learn, he said: because he sees hatzlacha in his learning and hence, he wants to continue. Who am I to deny him this right?

    well, in this week of tisha be-av, maybe the geulah is indeed closer if we can all come closer!

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