Being Beaten Al Kiddush Hashem

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  • #604706

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Everyone knows dying Al Kiddush Hashem has a special place in shamayim, however I saw an article on fox news about a michigan student who got beaten up and had to be taken to the hospital because he was Jewish (his mouth was stapled shut) so what does one get for that is it on the same level?

    #894057

    MorahRach
    Member

    I hope it’s the same. This poor kid. What an awful story, 20 people were standing there watching and did nothing. In this day and age when everyone has a phone on them pretty much at all times, I’m appalled.May he have a refuah sheleima and please let those thugs get what is coming to them.

    #894058

    I was beaten up, threatened and spit upon numerous times in various countries (including in Israel – in Bnei Brak!). Must get a lot of schar then.

    Nowadays I go completely undercover with a cap wherever I go, outside of E”Y.

    Though there is another reason for that – I have a hair disease and therefore a kippah and/or hat easily blows away with even a little wind. A cap is a lot tighter and catches less wind.

    #894059

    shein
    Member

    TCG: How’d that happen in Bnei Brak of all places?

    #894060

    Walking along Jabotinsky Street on an evening walk all around town. Suddenly a group of Russian youths started following me, shouting insults at me, spitting towards me. I got away without damage B”H.

    Other examples:

    * I got into a huge fistfight with a drunk in Prague who hit me in my face so hard I almost broke my nose. Hit back as much as I could.

    * Again in Prague, someone made me trip on a metro and then hit me in the back.

    * In Amsterdam, I was suddenly surrounded by 10 Moroccan/Arab youths who obviously didn’t want to say ‘hi’. A police officer came to help me but was attacked by them, they focused on him and I fled into a large store with security guards.

    * I got spit at by someone shouting “f…. Jew” in Amsterdam as well.

    * In The Hague, a neo-Nazi on a bicycle tried to kick me but just missed.

    And more, and more. Anyway, all of those incidents were ~10 years ago, when I was young and foolish enough to walk around the street with visibly Jewish symbols. I know better now, so I rarely get into any trouble.

    #894061

    MorahRach
    Member

    Wow I’m sorry about that. Glad you are ok.

    #894063

    shein
    Member

    TCG: How do you account that in the U.S. Jews walk around in outwardly Jewish attire generally without incident, yet in Europe that is seemingly far more difficult?

    #894064

    mdd
    Member

    Shein, it is much more antisemitic there. In addition, in some countries locals stam azoi do not like when someone looks different, let alone Jewish. There is a reason why Rav Ch. Volozhiner said that America is going to be the last “stanzia” for Klal Yisroel before Moshiach. There is also a reason why Zionists enjoed such strong support among European Jews, especially in Eastern Europe.

    #894065

    Life in Europe is simply different.

    There is a major difference between countries, and cities, though.

    First of all: most of the trouble comes from Arabs, not from locals. At most, locals will give you funny looks, like you’re an animal that just escaped from the zoo. (Like an Essex lion, for the British here.) That said, I was attacked by ethnic Europeans several times as well.

    The most dangerous countries are those in Eastern (former East Bloc) Europe, and those countries with a lot of Muslims. Still, in those countries as well, the actual danger is really just limited to those major cities where a lot of Muslims live.

    Personally, I am from a very old but small (50,000 inhabitants) city in the eastern part of the Netherlands, close to the German border. The only Muslims there are Turkish and they are generally peaceful friendly people, not aggressive troublemakers. Same for most of the country. The same applies in the other countries, like Germany, France, Belgium, Sweden and the UK. You won’t get beaten up suddenly walking through some small town somewhere – the risk is in the big cities, like Amsterdam, Antwerp, Berlin, Goteborg, Stockholm or Manchester. That’s simply because most anti-Semitic Arabs tend to live almost exclusively in those big cities. They don’t usually live in rural villages, and the inhabitants of those might look at you with a curious look, but no hostility.

    #894066

    mdd
    Member

    THC, in Russia, Ukraine and, I think, Poland it is different.

    #894067

    mdd
    Member

    The Chassidishe Gatesheader, in Switzerland, they, for sure, look at Yidden with great hostility. What about the ethnic French? They would not attack Yidden?

    #894068

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    TCG I even saw a Chabad Rabbi wearing a baseball cap in Europe

    And then he tells me there isnt any anti-semitism because they dont see jews in Spain.

    I have been to Europe a few times , I was never attacked I dont particully look jewish and I dont sound jewish, but I do sound american.

    But almost every jew I saw was somewhat disguised, almost none of the boys or men wore kippat (They wore caps or baseball hats, but their tzizit were out)

    I can tell you its very different in Europe than in USA.

    I saw in London a guard over a shuls24/7 and you need an ID to enter many Shuls in Europe if you want to Daven there.

    Granted I have not been to the places TCG was from, I was in England (London) , France (Paris – Although even Paris can be dangerous) , Italy and Spain where maybe it isnt as bad.

    #894069

    iced
    Member

    A reason Jews in America today can go out in the street fully dressed like a Jew, including in full Chasidic regalia, is in no small part thanks to the Satmar Rebbe ztvk’l zy’a. The Satmar Rebbe, as soon as he got off the boat and was living in Williamsburg put his Shtreimel on his and walked to Shul. His gabbai whispered to him if he could hold his Shtreimel until they got to Shul — the Yidden in America were afraid of walking outside in a yarmulka! No one ever saw a Shtreimel on the streets! The Rebbe just sweetly smiled and said lomer gein.

    And with the Shtreimel on his head he went unto the streets of America. At first it was a sight to behold. But in short order, others started losing their fear (or embarasement) and the Jewish clothing became a common sight.

    Today, Baruch Hashem, no one bats an eyelash at the common sight of Jews dressed as Jews on the streets of America.

    #894070

    Feif Un
    Participant

    iced: Jews can openly be Jews here because of those who were here before WW2, who fought for it. They used to have to find new jobs every week because they refused to work on Shabbos. Some of them went to court to fight it. Eventually, people developed respect for them and their willingness to sacrifice for their religion.

    The Satmar Rebbe confined himself to one area. Most Americans had no idea he existed. I wonder, why was he wearing a streimel if it wasn’t Shabbos? If it was Shabbos, how could his gabbai suggest he carry it?

    #894071

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In places like NYC, Nobody cares what you are dressed like, It wasnt the Satmar Rebbe who changed the culture of NY. it was NY that changed

    You can be dressed as a Chassid, you can be dressed as a Muslim you can be dressed as someone from Africa, You can be a man dressed as a woman Nobody really cares.

    People compare NYC to elsewhere in the US. What works well in NYC and vincinity does not work elsewhere in US. Try dressing like a Chassid in Alabama. It is NOT common and you will get stares

    #894072

    iced
    Member

    Even immediatedly after WWII, Yidden even in New York did NOT dress outwardly overtly Jewish. The Rebbe often wore a Shtreimel on days other than Shabbos. Believe me, as soon as he stepped off the boat, World Jewry knew his exact address. And while, surely, there were tzadikim who kept Shabbos in America long before, even they dared not walk the streets of America (including NY) with a yarmulka publicly visible, a Jewish hat, tzitzis out, etc.

    #894073

    Sam2
    Participant

    Iced: But it’s not just Jews that New York accepts. You can be dressed as anyone and anything and won’t get a second look. That happens to have a positive for Jews, though it’s probably not so great for society. But like zdad said, if you look like a Chassid in Alabama you will get stared at, screamed at, and possibly attacked by a Klansmen, who are probably the only people in much of the Deep South and Northwest that know what a Jew is.

    #894074

    mogold
    Participant

    FEIFUN

    Your hatred for the Satmar Rebbe has no limit, you just keep attacking & belittleing him without any basis in fact.

    There were a very miniscule amount of heroic mesiras nefesh jews pre WW2, who as a matter of fact dont & most of their children dont wear shtreimlich.

    your subtitle of Proud MO leads us to belive that you know zero about shtreimlich or when they are worn.

    there are at least 20-25 times a year that shtreimlich are worn when its permissible to carry…

    please al least get you facts straight & don’t make yourself a laughingstock every time you post…

    #894075

    Feif Un
    Participant

    mogold: I did not say anything against the Satmar Rebbe in my above post. I merely questioned the story, and also questioned the idea that the Rebbe is responsible for Jews being able to dress as Jews publicly in the US.

    I personally know people whose parents were moser nefesh in the US in the 1920s and 1930s. True, they don’t wear a streimel, but they do wear a frock and a black hat.

    I know plenty about streimels and when they are worn. I have many cousins who are chassidish, and know far more than you think. I am MO by choice, after growing up in a chareidi family.

    As for making myself a laughingstock, honestly, the Satmar/Neturei Karta fanatics who post here are laughed at far more than I am, with their ridiculous posts about Israel.

    #894076

    WIY
    Member

    coffee addict

    I have often heard that living al Kiddush Hashem is much bigger and that is truly the ultimate sacrifice. Hashem does not want dead Jews or beaten up Jews. The idea is to be moser nefesh in our observance without it coming to such horrific stories chas veshalom. Hopefully this boy will one day find Torah and be zoche to live like a proud Jew should.

    #894077

    mdd
    Member

    Mogold, Feif Un did not belittle the Satmar Rebbe. He just said the credit is not due to him here. The point is that US is different from Poland, Ukraine and Russia.

    #894078

    iced
    Member

    WIY: There is no bigger zchus in the world than to be killed al kiddush Hashem. In fact, many tzadikim davened to be zoche to have the zchus to die as such.

    #894079

    Toi
    Participant

    i dont remember reading anything as horrible as a boy having his mouth stapled shut. just awful.

    #894080

    WIY
    Member

    iced

    Dying al kiddush Hashem is much easier (in comparison) than living your whole life al kiddush Hashem. It just takes one moment of strength to die al kiddush Hashem.

    #894081

    iced
    Member

    The very reason, in large part, why things are different (insofar as dressing Jewish in public) in America today, is thanks in no small part to the Satmar Rebbe ztvk’l zy’a.

    #894082

    iced
    Member

    The very reason, in large part, why things are different (insofar as dressing Jewish in public) in America today, is thanks in no small part to the Satmar Rebbe ztvk’l zy’a.

    #894083

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    With no disrespect to Rav Yoel Satmer Rov, he had nothing to do with it.

    The Amish on one side and those like Arnold Rothstein & Meyer Lansky on the other did more for the inability/distaste for people to beat Jews for their clothing, at least in the Northeastern states. But watch out once you cross the Mason Dixon line (excluding NYC south known as Florida), as Sam said.

    #894084

    iced
    Member

    It is extremely rare for a Klansman to physically assault a Jew, these days, even in the Deep South.

    #894085

    americaisover
    Participant

    it is a bigger kiddush Hashem for Jews to fight back and not be treated like training fodder for shkotzim v remosim or am I sounding Zionist now, so therefore I deserve to be beaten?

    #894086

    iced
    Member

    It is a bigger Kiddush Hashem to be nice and quiet and run away from fighting with goyim rather than to fight back.

    #894087

    tahini
    Member

    We should avoid fighting unless strictly necessary. BUT if life is threatened fight back especially for those too weak to run away.

    #894088

    iced
    Member

    If someone’s life is G-d forbid threatened, the best course of action (if available) is to run away as fast as possible. Fighting will put ones own life at risk; a risk best avoided.

    #894089

    yehudayona
    Participant

    iced, I’m not sure what you mean by “a Jewish hat.” Before the war, the well-dressed non-Jew wore a fedora. It most likely was non-black, but so was the hat worn by yeshiva bochurim.

    #894090

    iced
    Member

    My point simply was clearly Jewish identifiable articles of clothing.

    Throughout history, from our bondage in Egypt up to the present, Jews have dressed identifiably different than the gentiles in whose midst we unfortunately live.

    #894091

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    sorry I wasn’t clear with all the details to my question. If someone dies Al Kiddush Hashem (Daniel Pearl) he goes straight to Gan Eden however if he gets beaten he still has the rest of his life ahead of him to do bad things and how can he go to Gan Eden. However, maybe this is worse because the person has more pain and constantly has to live with this pain and suffering for the rest of his life?

    #894092

    Sam2
    Participant

    Iced: That would be because of the lack of Jews in the Deep South, not the lack of violent Klansmen.

    #894093

    iced
    Member

    It’s more a result of Americans respect for law and order; and even a Klansman is almost always assured and afraid that any violence will lead to harsh legal penalties being imposed upon himself. (This is demonstrable by the fact that the Klan’s #1 enemy are blacks. And there are plenty of them in the South. Yet race-based physical violence against them is also very rare. [In the few cases it does happen, it always becomes a major news story.]) Unlike in Europe, as described above by a resident there, where not only isn’t such violence rare, but it is done publicly in major European cities.

    Which is all a testament in favor of America.

    #894094

    mdd
    Member

    WIY, you quoted an opinion of a Ba’al Musar. Strictly speaking, though, dying al Kiddush HaShem is greater. Chofets Chaim wrote that a poshute Yid who agrees to it and gets killed gets the same place in Olam HaBah as one of the Gaonei ha’Dor.

    #894095

    mdd
    Member

    Sam2, is it that bad down there?

    #894097

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    It’s not that bad down there. In the hick towns, possibly, but not in the major cities. Many southerners, especially more progressive but religious Christians (which is a large chunk of the more urban areas) are very friendly towards Jews.

    #894098

    Sam2
    Participant

    Md: It depends where you go. The big cities are fine. The small towns can really be that bad. And if you aren’t physically assaulted, I know of plenty of people that get spit on and hit with thousands of dollars worth of absurd traffic tickets for being “different”.

    Iced: So which is it? American respect for law and order or the Satmar Rebbe wearing a streimel? Or are you saying that American respect for law and order comes from R’ Yoel?

    #894099

    iced
    Member

    The Satmar Rebbe ztvk’l zy’a broke the taboo and fear among American Jews of walking, publicly, in the streets of America dressed as a Jew.

    Not only did he break the taboo, he made them proud to publicly fully dress as a Yid.

    #894100

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    If I repeat things three or four times, maybe someone will listen?

    “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”

    Albert Einstein

    #894101

    Yossi613
    Member

    to answer your original qu

    I heard from the Rachover Rov Shlita although I forgot whom he said in name of that If a goy hits a Yid, then any zechus entitled to the goy gets transfeered to the Yid, and all the Yids Avairos get passed to the Goy for punishment to the Goy

    #894102

    thehock
    Member

    @iced

    The Satmar Rebbe ztvk’l zy’a broke the taboo and fear among American Jews of walking, publicly, in the streets of America dressed as a Jew.

    You’re entitled to your opinion, but please realize the above is just an opinion. There was no taboo nor fear among American Jews (at least in the Northeast, where the Rebbe lived) of “walking, publicly, in the streets of America dressed as a Jew.” Please check your facts against the actual history.

    Some people might have felt a need to modernize their dress in the new country and the Rebbe probably helped instill a pride in their traditional levush for those. But the assertion you make above…is simply not so.

    #894103

    Sam2
    Participant

    ca: By the way, just so we’re not Motzi La’az on the students of the wrong school, it was Michigan State, not Michigan.

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